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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/2/2008 12:41:28 PM
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Conquered
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quote:
Nothing was/is predestended just preknown.
We have plenty of choices & God doesn't force us into any of them, yet He know ahead of time what choices we would/will make.
If it is pre-known by an all-powerful God then just simply permitting that pre-known it is therefore predestined.
And sometimes God intervenes and stops those choices that he knows we would make and/or have already made....just read the story of Jonah whom God tracked down fleeing in the opposite direction of Nineveh, or Saul intent to kill David, or Nebuchadnezzar intent to kill those three righteous ones by fire, or Paul intent to bring Christians back from Damascus, or Baalam who was restrained by his own donkey, or Sennacherib's intent to destroy Jerusalem, or Korah's rebellion in the desert, or Ananias and Saphira's intent to deceive the early church, or Pharaoh intent to destroy Jerusalem.
< Message edited by BrokenMessenger -- 5/2/2008 12:56:58 PM >
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/2/2008 1:16:51 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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In all those you just mentioned God didn't force them to do it. They still had the opportunity to do the opposite. Jonah didn't have to go to Nineveh he could have just died in the fish, The 3 could have bowed down, but since they didn't God Blessed them, etc. I am not saying God doesn't step in and intervene, God has to intervene in people's lives for them to accept him (No man seeks God). I am not saying he doesn't, but intervention and Forcing are two different things.
_____________________________
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen. Not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. -C.S. Lewis
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/2/2008 1:22:53 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BrokenMessenger
quote:
Broken do believe that God wills people to sin to prove his power?
No. I believe that God willed sin to enter the world in order reveal and display a better glory for himself on the other side of it.
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. -Romans 5:18
So He willed Satan to turn against him. So He willed Adam and Eve to disobey him. So as a result of what Adam and Eve did (that you say God willed) made all of the world born into sin with a sin nature, so if your right he does will people to sin. So as a result he willed somthing he hates (sin)....... something doesn't add up here. Also if God wills some to chose and some not to. Then why in the old testiment right before the Flood, did he say I am displeased with man and as a result destroy all of mankind other than noah, his wife, and his sons and their wife. So he was displeased with man... but he made them that way..... hmmm
< Message edited by AboundinginHisGrace -- 5/2/2008 1:37:22 PM >
_____________________________
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen. Not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. -C.S. Lewis
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/2/2008 1:28:47 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 432
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quote:
So He willed Satan to turn against him. So He willed Adam and Eve to disobey him. So as a result of what Adam and Eve did (that you say God willed) made all of the world born into sin with a sin nature, so if your right he does will people to sin. So as a result he willed somthing he hates (sin)....... something doesn't add up here.
I don't get the objection here? 
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/2/2008 1:49:10 PM
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justajerk
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quote:
So He willed Satan to turn against him. So He willed Adam and Eve to disobey him. So as a result of what Adam and Eve did (that you say God willed) made all of the world born into sin with a sin nature, so if your right he does will people to sin. So as a result he willed somthing he hates (sin)....... something doesn't add up here. Could I ask what your thoughts are on the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. According to scripture it was written before the "foundation of the world"; so why would this book be in existence if sin was not part of God's plan before He created?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/2/2008 2:15:37 PM
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justajerk
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quote:
So He willed Satan to turn against him. So He willed Adam and Eve to disobey him. So as a result of what Adam and Eve did (that you say God willed) made all of the world born into sin with a sin nature, so if your right he does will people to sin. So as a result he willed somthing he hates (sin)....... something doesn't add up here. Also if God wills some to chose and some not to. Then why in the old testiment right before the Flood, did he say I am displeased with man and as a result destroy all of mankind other than noah, his wife, and his sons and their wife. So he was displeased with man... but he made them that way..... hmmm I think Paul addressed this question in Romans 9:
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/2/2008 2:24:46 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
quote:
So He willed Satan to turn against him. So He willed Adam and Eve to disobey him. So as a result of what Adam and Eve did (that you say God willed) made all of the world born into sin with a sin nature, so if your right he does will people to sin. So as a result he willed somthing he hates (sin)....... something doesn't add up here.
I don't get the objection here?
How?
My four year old has been able to recite his abc's for years now.For now it's just a song to him.He doesn't get that they are letters that form words.
Just the same God desires for us to know him.It's not enough for us to give mental assent,or parrot back to him who he says he is.We actually experience him,and learn him.
Without a knowledge of good and evil,we would never know that he was good.So everything that has transpired up to now is the way he chose to reveal himself to us.
So when God says I am holy,righteous,good etc... We can say and know that he is in fact all that he says he is,not just give mental assent,or robotic agreement.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/2/2008 3:07:49 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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So you are saying that before Sin entered the world, Adam and Eve weren't one with God?
_____________________________
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen. Not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. -C.S. Lewis
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/2/2008 3:20:05 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
So you are saying that before Sin entered the world, Adam and Eve weren't one with God?
Are you saying that they were? Jesus prayed that God would make us one with him even as they were one with each other.He didn't pray that God would restore us to the oneness that he and Adam shared.
I think that many are under the mistaken impression that God saying let us make man was finished when he created Adam.That was only the beginning of a process of making man.
Jesus was not an after thought or part of Gods disaster pan,rather he was part of Gods master plan.Satan,and Adam did not foil the plan of God,nor catch him off guard forcing him to resort to plan B.
Everything is done according to Gods will,whether his permissive will or his divine will.It's his will just the same.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/2/2008 5:51:31 PM
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Conquered
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quote:
In all those you just mentioned God didn't force them to do it. They still had the opportunity to do the opposite. Jonah didn't have to go to Nineveh he could have just died in the fish, The 3 could have bowed down, but since they didn't God Blessed them, etc. I am not saying God doesn't step in and intervene, God has to intervene in people's lives for them to accept him (No man seeks God). I am not saying he doesn't, but intervention and Forcing are two different things.
So what choice did Paul have in his conversion? In Acts 9 we read that he is on his way to Damascus to round up Christians and then suddenly Jesus overwhelms with his beauty and light and informs him what he will do for him. There was no: “Now go away Paul and decide whether or not you will follow me” there was instead a command of what is and what he will do. Paul was overwhelmed by grace, the three righteous men were well before that fateful day. Jonah was overwhelmed in the fish, Job was overwhelmed by the whirl wind. Sure call it force, a happy, blessed force, but don’t think for a minute that you can say that God intervenes but that his will is thwarted. God does whatever he pleases whenever he pleases.
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/2/2008 6:13:39 PM
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Conquered
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quote:
So He willed Satan to turn against him. So He willed Adam and Eve to disobey him. So as a result of what Adam and Eve did (that you say God willed) made all of the world born into sin with a sin nature, so if your right he does will people to sin. So as a result he willed somthing he hates (sin)....... something doesn't add up here.
How do you avoid this problem if all I put forward is that God created mankind foreknowing that he will sin? Are you saying that God didn't will when he created mankind? You see everything flows from even just that first willing act.
quote:
Also if God wills some to chose and some not to. Then why in the old testiment right before the Flood, did he say I am displeased with man and as a result destroy all of mankind other than noah, his wife, and his sons and their wife. So he was displeased with man... but he made them that way..... hmmm
He also expressed regret in the desert with the Isrealites too. But you don't think that God couldn't find a better joy on the other side of this event? How about the cross? Do you think God was pleased as his son was being murdered? Yet the Scriptures say that God was pleased to punish Jesus for our sins (Isaiah 53:10)
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/2/2008 6:35:52 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BrokenMessenger
How do you avoid this problem if all I put forward is that God created mankind foreknowing that he will sin? Are you saying that God didn't will when he created mankind? You see everything flows from even just that first willing act.
so are you saying that God is the author of evil/sin?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/2/2008 9:36:21 PM
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Conquered
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quote:
so are you saying that God is the author of evil/sin?
No. "God is light, in him there is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5).
And the largest point of it all here is that God is not like us, we are not like God.
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/3/2008 9:31:37 AM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BrokenMessenger
No. "God is light, in him there is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5).
And the largest point of it all here is that God is not like us, we are not like God.
so did God will adam's sin or allow adam's sin?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/3/2008 10:50:05 AM
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Conquered
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quote:
so did God will adam's sin or allow adam's sin?
Again, what would be the difference if he is all-powerful? But geting back to your objection....by nature, God cannot be the author of something he is not.
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/3/2008 12:51:33 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BrokenMessenger
quote:
so did God will adam's sin or allow adam's sin?
Again, what would be the difference if he is all-powerful? But geting back to your objection....by nature, God cannot be the author of something he is not.
if you say God allowed adam's sin than God is reacting to an event outside of Himself. if you say God willed adam's sin then God is the author of that sin. since God cannot be the author of sin, then He must have allowed sin, meaning He has reacted to something outside of Himself. i have no objection to that idea, do you?
another option is to say that we cant explain the relationship between God's will and man's freedom. i have no objection to that idea either, do you?
< Message edited by john_mark -- 5/3/2008 1:19:53 PM >
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/4/2008 1:40:43 AM
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Conquered
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quote:
if you say God allowed adam's sin than God is reacting to an event outside of Himself. if you say God willed adam's sin then God is the author of that sin.
If you want to equate "author" with "willed" then call it "author" knowing that you've just used poor terminology to define something I've already affirmed earlier. But let me be clear to say that while God willed sin, permitted the existence of it, he does not commit it, and in fact, cannot commit it.
John tells us that "sin is lawlessness" (1 John 2:4) but God is not lawless, he is the law. This is what I meant by when I said that God is not the author of sin, that is, he was not the first sinner because he does not and cannot sin.
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/4/2008 9:26:25 AM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BrokenMessenger
If you want to equate "author" with "willed" then call it "author" knowing that you've just used poor terminology to define something I've already affirmed earlier. But let me be clear to say that while God willed sin, permitted the existence of it, he does not commit it, and in fact, cannot commit it.
John tells us that "sin is lawlessness" (1 John 2:4) but God is not lawless, he is the law. This is what I meant by when I said that God is not the author of sin, that is, he was not the first sinner because he does not and cannot sin.
there is a difference between God authoring/willing sin and God permitting sin. In our society we see just as giulty a person who plans and hires a hitman to commit a murder as the person who actually pulls the trigger. are you saying that God authored the plan for adam to sin and yet is not responsible for adam's actions?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/4/2008 5:18:04 PM
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Conquered
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quote:
In our society we see just as giulty a person who plans and hires a hitman to commit a murder as the person who actually pulls the trigger.
Yes we do because whether we cowardly order the "hit" or be the hitman ourselves murder is forbidden and we would have a hand in such a conspiracy. But for God to take life is not forbidden and you have made the categorical error of putting God on the same plane as us.
God did not just order the death of his Son, the most egregious sinful act in all humanity, he planned for it, all so that we might be called children of God - How great is the Father's love! (1 John 3:1). You can't deny by Scripture that before creation God willed and planned Jesus' death, so are you prepared to put God on par with a hit man?
Because I am going to cut off the righteous and the wicked, my sword will be unsheathed against everyone from south to north. 5 Then all people will know that I the LORD have drawn my sword from its scabbard; it will not return again.' - Ezekiel 21:4-5
'I will surely strike my hands together at the unjust gain you have made and at the blood you have shed in your midst. 14 Will your courage endure or your hands be strong in the day I deal with you? I the LORD have spoken, and I will do it. 15 I will disperse you among the nations and scatter you through the countries; and I will put an end to your uncleanness. 16 When you have been defiled in the eyes of the nations, you will know that I am the LORD.' " - Ezekiel 21:13-16
"Therefore, Oholibah, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will stir up your lovers against you, those you turned away from in disgust, and I will bring them against you from every side- 23 the Babylonians and all the Chaldeans, the men of Pekod and Shoa and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them, handsome young men, all of them governors and commanders, chariot officers and men of high rank, all mounted on horses. 24 They will come against you with weapons, chariots and wagons and with a throng of people; they will take up positions against you on every side with large and small shields and with helmets. I will turn you over to them for punishment, and they will punish you according to their standards. -Ezekiel 23:22-24
So I said to them, "The word of the LORD came to me: 21 Say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am about to desecrate my sanctuary—the stronghold in which you take pride, the delight of your eyes, the object of your affection. The sons and daughters you left behind will fall by the sword. 22 And you will do as I have done. - Ezekiel 24:20-22
Emphasis in all instances is mine.
It doesn't appear that God wants off the hook here. And have you ever considered the war tactics of those nations God used to punish Israel?
'Come now, make a bargain with my master, the king of Assyria: I will give you two thousand horses—if you can put riders on them! 24 How can you repulse one officer of the least of my master's officials, even though you are depending on Egypt for chariots and horsemen? 25 Furthermore, have I come to attack and destroy this place without word from the LORD? The LORD himself told me to march against this country and destroy it.' " 26 Then Eliakim son of Hilkiah, and Shebna and Joah said to the field commander, "Please speak to your servants in Aramaic, since we understand it. Don't speak to us in Hebrew in the hearing of the people on the wall." 27 But the commander replied, "Was it only to your master and you that my master sent me to say these things, and not to the men sitting on the wall—who, like you, will have to eat their own filth and drink their own urine?" - 2 Kings 18:23-27
So if God sent these brutal nations to be the insturments of his wrath, how does that square with your view that such a sending would make such a one a hit man?
quote:
are you saying that God authored the plan for adam to sin and yet is not responsible for adam's actions?
No. I am saying that God willed sin and uses it for his glory but that in steering it for his purposes he does not sin himself, if for not other reason it just as you said earlier, because sin is outside himself. You seem to think that because God gave us his law that he is subservient to it in the same way that we are.
< Message edited by BrokenMessenger -- 5/4/2008 5:24:21 PM >
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/4/2008 8:15:26 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 32
Joined: 4/28/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BrokenMessenger
quote:
In our society we see just as giulty a person who plans and hires a hitman to commit a murder as the person who actually pulls the trigger.
Yes we do because whether we cowardly order the "hit" or be the hitman ourselves murder is forbidden and we would have a hand in such a conspiracy. But for God to take life is not forbidden and you have made the categorical error of putting God on the same plane as us.
God did not just order the death of his Son, the most egregious sinful act in all humanity, he planned for it, all so that we might be called children of God - How great is the Father's love! (1 John 3:1). You can't deny by Scripture that before creation God willed and planned Jesus' death, so are you prepared to put God on par with a hit man?
Because I am going to cut off the righteous and the wicked, my sword will be unsheathed against everyone from south to north. 5 Then all people will know that I the LORD have drawn my sword from its scabbard; it will not return again.' - Ezekiel 21:4-5
'I will surely strike my hands together at the unjust gain you have made and at the blood you have shed in your midst. 14 Will your courage endure or your hands be strong in the day I deal with you? I the LORD have spoken, and I will do it. 15 I will disperse you among the nations and scatter you through the countries; and I will put an end to your uncleanness. 16 When you have been defiled in the eyes of the nations, you will know that I am the LORD.' " - Ezekiel 21:13-16
"Therefore, Oholibah, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will stir up your lovers against you, those you turned away from in disgust, and I will bring them against you from every side- 23 the Babylonians and all the Chaldeans, the men of Pekod and Shoa and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them, handsome young men, all of them governors and commanders, chariot officers and men of high rank, all mounted on horses. 24 They will come against you with weapons, chariots and wagons and with a throng of people; they will take up positions against you on every side with large and small shields and with helmets. I will turn you over to them for punishment, and they will punish you according to their standards. -Ezekiel 23:22-24
So I said to them, "The word of the LORD came to me: 21 Say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am about to desecrate my sanctuary—the stronghold in which you take pride, the delight of your eyes, the object of your affection. The sons and daughters you left behind will fall by the sword. 22 And you will do as I have done. - Ezekiel 24:20-22
Emphasis in all instances is mine.
It doesn't appear that God wants off the hook here. And have you ever considered the war tactics of those nations God used to punish Israel?
'Come now, make a bargain with my master, the king of Assyria: I will give you two thousand horses—if you can put riders on them! 24 How can you repulse one officer of the least of my master's officials, even though you are depending on Egypt for chariots and horsemen? 25 Furthermore, have I come to attack and destroy this place without word from the LORD? The LORD himself told me to march against this country and destroy it.' " 26 Then Eliakim son of Hilkiah, and Shebna and Joah said to the field commander, "Please speak to your servants in Aramaic, since we understand it. Don't speak to us in Hebrew in the hearing of the people on the wall." 27 But the commander replied, "Was it only to your master and you that my master sent me to say these things, and not to the men sitting on the wall—who, like you, will have to eat their own filth and drink their own urine?" - 2 Kings 18:23-27
So if God sent these brutal nations to be the insturments of his wrath, how does that square with your view that such a sending would make such a one a hit man?
quote:
are you saying that God authored the plan for adam to sin and yet is not responsible for adam's actions?
No. I am saying that God willed sin and uses it for his glory but that in steering it for his purposes he does not sin himself, if for not other reason it just as you said earlier, because sin is outside himself. You seem to think that because God gave us his law that he is subservient to it in the same way that we are.
The reason God had to send his son in the first place is because of sin. So you are saying He willed sin into the world just so he could send his son to atone for sin? And what do you say about pre-flood earth when God said he wasn't pleased with man they had only sin in their hearts all the time. So you are saying that he is unpleased with man, yet he willed them that way.... something doesn't add up. Your argument you are trying to make is saying that God is the author of sin.
_____________________________
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen. Not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. -C.S. Lewis
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/5/2008 12:50:46 AM
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justajerk
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It seems fairly clear from scripture that God does permit (will/author as you seem to see it) sin to accomplish His purposes. In order to display His glory in His mercy, justice and wrath there had to be sin, much in the same way that for us to be able to see the full beauty of a tapestry, there must be some black thread interwoven among the colors; or as a black background is used to examine a diamond in order to see all the facets.
"Have you considered Job?"
Job is another example of this in that Satan was directed to Job by God, and given permission to kill Jobs children and ruin him. And what was Job's response?
"...The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD."
22 In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong.
And I'd like to add a few more for thought:
1Samuel 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him. 15And Saul’s servants said to him, "Behold now, a harmful spirit from God is tormenting you. 16Let our lord now command your servants who are before you to seek out a man who is skillful in playing the lyre, and when the harmful spirit from God is upon you, he will play it, and you will be well."
1Kings 22:19And Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left; 20and the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said one thing, and another said another. 21Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, 'I will entice him.' 22And the LORD said to him, 'By what means?' And he said, 'I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And he said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.' 23Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you."
1Chron 21: 1 Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel.
2Sam 24:1 Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go, number Israel and Judah."
Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.
(If you want to go further you might look at these: Gen 45:5; Gen 50:20; Exo 4:21; Jdg 14:1-4; Psa 76:10; Isa 44:28; Amos 3:6; Act 2:22-23; Act 4:27-28)
And getting back to poor Job; What was the outcome of this tormenting by "God's monkey"? (a moniker for Satan, I've borrowed from Thomas Watson)
Job 42: 1Then Job answered the LORD and said:
2"I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?'Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4'Hear, and I will speak;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.'
5I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
but now my eye sees you;
6therefore I despise myself,
and repent in dust and ashes."
And Job's friends who offered their counsel?
Job 42:7After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite: "My anger burns against you and against your two friends, for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. 8Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has." 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did what the LORD had told them, and the LORD accepted Job’s prayer.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/5/2008 1:22:44 AM
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Conquered
Posts: 117
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
The reason God had to send his son in the first place is because of sin. So you are saying He willed sin into the world just so he could send his son to atone for sin?
I'm not saying it, the Scriptures say it.
If you believe this verse...
...but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. - 1 Peter 1:19-20
...then you believe that God created Adam and Eve knowing they would sin and yet being pleased to rescue some from their sin through Jesus' blood. Creation is a willful act, and in that act came its consequences. God didn't make a mistake by creating creatures he knew would sin only to say, oops, what have I done? The fact that God permitted sin so that Jesus could be revealed affirms what God willed: that he permitted the existence of sin and then used that sin to achieve his purposes. What is so awesome and amazing is that God did this in order to reveal a greater glory for himself: The Lord Jesus Christ conquering the cross, rising from the grave, triumphing over death and hell!
quote:
And what do you say about pre-flood earth when God said he wasn't pleased with man they had only sin in their hearts all the time. So you are saying that he is unpleased with man, yet he willed them that way.... something doesn't add up.
I'm not saying it, the Scriptures say it. Would you deny that at the world's creation that God had to see past this age in order to see his son being killed and risen at the very time foretold by his prophets? He still willed these creatures, and their offspring, into being knowing that they would sin, knowing that by nature they would be overwhelmed by a world he would grow to hate. And if he saw what the world would become at the time of the flood, he must have also seen what he himself would do at that time. If God has perfect foreknowledge then he sees his own actions in the future as well others.
So since you have the same problem, what do you say about it? I say that according to Genesis 6, God did indeed become sorrowed by the amount of sin in the world and took action, a foreknown, pre-planned action. Nevertheless, he was willing to bear all that sin, and all those after on account of a greater glory seen on the other side of all those sins.
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/5/2008 1:29:27 AM
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Conquered
Posts: 117
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.
Thanks for pointing that one out JaJ. That's a very helpful text.
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/5/2008 11:55:22 AM
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john_mark
Posts: 366
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BrokenMessenger
No. I am saying that God willed sin and uses it for his glory but that in steering it for his purposes he does not sin himself, if for not other reason it just as you said earlier, because sin is outside himself. You seem to think that because God gave us his law that he is subservient to it in the same way that we are.
because God foreknows an event doesnt mean that God willed the event, however i know that we wont come to an agreement on that point.
if God willed adam's sin then it would follow that adam did not have free will. to say that adam could have chosen not to sin would mean that God's will wasnt certain. if i understand your position correctly.
to say that "God willed sin and uses it for his glory but that in steering it for his purposes.. " seems to go against james 1
Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
1:14
But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
1:15
Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
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