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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/11/2008 12:36:10 AM
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SD456
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quote:
So how do you reconcile the sudden conversions in Acts with modern day conversions?
I think to come to your conclusion you would have to believe that the few examples we have in Acts shows the ONLY way that people are saved - I do not believe it does.
You are calvinists, I am not. We shall always disagree on those points and no amount of discussion will change either of our views, as I am solidly, and have been for 33 years, an Arminianist in my views.
As for being a Universalist, tags are ridiculous things that christians use to try and put people in certain boxes of beliefs. We all believe a bit of this and a bit of that teacher. Everyone of us.
I believe some things of the Classical theists and some things of Open Theists - and I disagree with some things of both.
I fully believe scripture when it says that God desires that ALL men be saved. You can believe that does not mean ALL if you choose, but I do not. I believe John 3:16 that God loved the world (the whole world of humanity) so much that Jesus came. Now you can change that to mean that God only loves a small portion of the world, but I can't change scripture like that.
God says He created man in His image. Now you can believe that God then decided to take the beings He created in His image and purposely create them to go to hell, but I do not. Or you can believe that God ONLY created those humans in His image that are destined for heaven, but then that would twist scripture even worse.
No, for as much as I've studied over 3 decades, calvinism shall always remain an erroneous and very twisted teaching.
_____________________________
MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/11/2008 10:57:49 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1970
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So let's now address this Scripture below which has been quoted to supposedly refute the Bible truth that God loves the world of humanity -- all human beings.
quote:
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God."- James 4:4
So do you think God loves the world that James has defined in James 4?
When James, John and the other apostles use the word "world" pejoratively, it is not a reference to the world of humanity, but to the things which exist in this world because of sin, and therefore under the control of "the god of this world" (Satan). The philosophies, religions, governments, systems and attractions of this world, which exalt men and idols above God, and produce "wordliness" (as opposed to godliness) are the things that are at enmity with God. This "world" is the Tower of Babel and Mystery Babylon. And that is what James is talking about. This is also what John is talking about when he says "love not the world".
If they were talking about human beings, that command would be a direct contradiction to the commandment to love thy neighbour as thyself, which is the second greatest commandment, and upon which hang all the Law and the Prophets (and neighbour has no limits as per the parable of the Good Samaritan).
Therefore James 4:4 no way negates the facts that (1) God loves the world of humanity (i.e. sinners) since He created them in His image and (2) God sent His Son into the world not to condemn these sinners, but that all sinners might be saved. That is the clear import of John 3:16, 17.
Dodging from these verses to others which refer to the "world system" at enmity with God does a great disservice to the truth of the Gospel and in fact perverts the Gospel. That is why I called it a "warped theology". God hates the world system which Satan controls, but God does NOT hate the sinners who are controlled by this system.
How can we know with certainty? The pertinent questions to ask are:
1. Did Christ Jesus come into this world to save sinners?
2. Are all men sinners?
3. Were all our sins laid upon Christ as the Lamb of God?
4. Did the Lamb of God take away the sin of the world?
5. Is Christ the Propitiation for the sins of the world?
6. Was God in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself?
7. Is the offer of salvation to "whosoever will"?
A careful study of the New Testament will confirm that all these questions can be answered directly with Scripture, therefore the answer is a resounding "Yes".
This matter has a direct bearing on whether humanity has free-will and can exercise this will. The question may be asked, if God has done everything to save all sinners, then why aren't all sinners saved? The answer is clear from Scripture. We see in Scripture that men may freely choose to obey or disobey God (and there are serious consequences to disobedience), and many choose to disobey the Gospel. Israel itself is the best example in Scripture.
Adam chose to disobey God, and we know the consquences. Cain also chose to disobey God, and he paid for it. God will neither compel men to obey Him, nor compel men to love Him. That is why He created men with the freedom of choice, and said "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve".
Today through the Gospel God says that He now commandeth all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). Yet many disobey this command even after hearing the Gospel. That is proof that men are free to disobey God. As one goes through the book of Acts, one sees how the Gospel was preached again and again to the Jews throughout the Roman Empire. Some believed, but many did not believe, and furthermore persecuted the apostles and others who preached the Gospel.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/11/2008 11:47:40 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2300
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From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
The pertinent questions to ask are:
1. Did Christ Jesus come into this world to save sinners?
Yes, but some will be cast into hell. God knew from the beginning who He would save and who He would not save. Universalists believe that He came to save all sinners.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
2. Are all men sinners?
Yes, all are under sin.
Romans 3
9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
3. Were all our sins laid upon Christ as the Lamb of God?
If Christ paid for every individual's sin, it would be unjust for God to send some individuals to hell.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
4. Did the Lamb of God take away the sin of the world?
I believe that Conquered already explained the different meanings for "world." If the Lamb of God took away the sin of every individual, then hell is no longer necessary.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
5. Is Christ the Propitiation for the sins of the world?
Once again, we have to define world.
John 3
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
6. Was God in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself?
Did Jesus reconcile the whole world so that none will go to hell?
2 Corinthians
18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
For whom has Christ been made sin? For the believers. Unbelievers still go to hell. The wages of sin is death; the gift of God is eternal life. Will all individuals have eternal life?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
7. Is the offer of salvation to "whosoever will"?
The offer is there. In fact, it is commanded that all men believe.
1 John 3
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
Who will obey the command to believe and who will come?
Romans 3
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
18There is no fear of God before their eyes.
2 Timothy 2
25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/12/2008 8:34:02 AM
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justajerk
Posts: 35
Joined: 4/30/2008
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quote:
1. Did Christ Jesus come into this world to save sinners?
2. Are all men sinners?
3. Were all our sins laid upon Christ as the Lamb of God?
4. Did the Lamb of God take away the sin of the world?
5. Is Christ the Propitiation for the sins of the world?
6. Was God in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself?
7. Is the offer of salvation to "whosoever will"?
A careful study of the New Testament will confirm that all these questions can be answered directly with Scripture, therefore the answer is a resounding "Yes". There seems to have been many great theologians who obviously did not do the careful study to come to the same conclusion as yourself. What did those many men look at and study through for 7 months at the council of Dordt? Or Augustine, Luther, Knox, Whitfield, Spurgeon, Edwards, etc? This also would seem to negate quite a large portion of the scriptures that do proclaim God's sovereignty in election.
Is there a possibility that these men were correct, or was Pelagius wrongly accused of Heresy?
"Some opponents seem to harbor the ridiculous notion that this
set of doctrines was the new invention of the Frenchman John Calvin. They would
represent us as in this thing followers of him instead of followers of the Bible. This is a
stupid historical error. John Calvin no more invented these doctrines than he invented this
world which God had created six thousand years before. We believe that he was a very
gifted, learned, and, in the main, godly man, who still had his faults. He found
substantially this system of doctrines just where we find them, in the faithful study of the
Bible, Where we see them taught by all the prophets, apostles, and the Messiah himself,
from Genesis to Revelation." - R. L. Dabney (1820-1898)
American Presbyterian theologian
Chaplain to Gen. Stonewall Jackson during the Civil War
< Message edited by justajerk -- 5/12/2008 9:32:26 AM >
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/12/2008 3:06:54 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 117
Joined: 6/18/2005
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SD,
While you told me very much about how you've rejected the Doctrines of Grace for three decades you didn't anwer the question....again....
quote:
So how do you reconcile the sudden conversions in Acts with modern day conversions?
FWIW, I was a Pelagian (in practice, I had no idea of the term until a few years ago) for most of my life and a Classical Arminian until just a couple of years ago. I too have studied things very carefully for decades..but that's irrelevant.
Truth is truth whether it is known or not or believed or not. It's not about how long you've studied something, it's about whether or not it is true.
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/12/2008 3:10:11 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 117
Joined: 6/18/2005
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quote:
1. Did Christ Jesus come into this world to save sinners?
2. Are all men sinners?
3. Were all our sins laid upon Christ as the Lamb of God?
4. Did the Lamb of God take away the sin of the world?
5. Is Christ the Propitiation for the sins of the world?
6. Was God in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself?
7. Is the offer of salvation to "whosoever will"?
1. Is true.
2. Is true.
7. Yes, whosoever will may come! But only those who have their desires stirred by Spirit so that they can will to come will come.
The answer to 3,4,5,6 is no if you mean the whole world and all without exception. I do not believe in a gospel that claims that Jesus' death on the cross is only powerful enough to save me if I should choose him.
Thus my sig...
< Message edited by Conquered -- 5/12/2008 3:23:00 PM >
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/12/2008 3:42:38 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1502
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justajerk
quote:
1. Did Christ Jesus come into this world to save sinners?
2. Are all men sinners?
3. Were all our sins laid upon Christ as the Lamb of God?
4. Did the Lamb of God take away the sin of the world?
5. Is Christ the Propitiation for the sins of the world?
6. Was God in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself?
7. Is the offer of salvation to "whosoever will"?
A careful study of the New Testament will confirm that all these questions can be answered directly with Scripture, therefore the answer is a resounding "Yes". There seems to have been many great theologians who obviously did not do the careful study to come to the same conclusion as yourself. What did those many men look at and study through for 7 months at the council of Dordt? Or Augustine, Luther, Knox, Whitfield, Spurgeon, Edwards, etc? This also would seem to negate quite a large portion of the scriptures that do proclaim God's sovereignty in election.
Is there a possibility that these men were correct, or was Pelagius wrongly accused of Heresy?
"Some opponents seem to harbor the ridiculous notion that this
set of doctrines was the new invention of the Frenchman John Calvin. They would
represent us as in this thing followers of him instead of followers of the Bible. This is a
stupid historical error. John Calvin no more invented these doctrines than he invented this
world which God had created six thousand years before. We believe that he was a very
gifted, learned, and, in the main, godly man, who still had his faults. He found
substantially this system of doctrines just where we find them, in the faithful study of the
Bible, Where we see them taught by all the prophets, apostles, and the Messiah himself,
from Genesis to Revelation." - R. L. Dabney (1820-1898)
American Presbyterian theologian
Chaplain to Gen. Stonewall Jackson during the Civil War
There are many non-calvinists who are famous and beloved teachers/preachers/theologians, too: Arminius, Wesley, Finney, Moody, Zinzendorf.
As in the quote you posted, I believe that though Augustine speaks about such views later in his life, the early church fathers could not be considered calvanist and this teaching did originate with John Calvin. And I believe it's his harsh concept of God's nature that caused him to come to this view, as it caused Edwards to preach the sermon: Sinners in the hand of an Angry God, which is definately not the God that I have found in scripture. That is a very cold, wrathful, vengeful God that they saw.
God bless you in your debate. It shall never be decided on this side of heaven.
_____________________________
MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/12/2008 8:32:25 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 117
Joined: 6/18/2005
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quote:
There are many non-calvinists who are famous and beloved teachers/preachers/theologians, too: Arminius, Wesley, Finney, Moody, Zinzendorf.
I wouldn't exalt Finney here. How about we swap out Finney for C.S. Lewis and A.W. Tozer? Finney was semi-pelagian and therefore in very dangerous theological territory. When you deny man's inability under sin and believe that there is some good in him to do the right thing, you deny the Gospel. Arminius and Wesley were far closer theologically to Spurgeon and Edwards than most professed Arminians today.
SD, with all due respect, I don't believe you see what Calvinists hold so dear. If nothing else, it is the biblical view that God is God. He sets the rules, he chooses whoever he wills and that the power of his cross is fully sufficient to save.
Salvation is described in the Word as a free gift, and that free gift ceases to be the moment you require your choice to be apart of that gift.
< Message edited by Conquered -- 5/12/2008 8:43:48 PM >
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/12/2008 8:40:10 PM
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Prairiehiker
Posts: 438
Joined: 12/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
Salvation is described in the Word as a gift, and that gift ceases to be the moment you require your choice to be apart of that gift.
ANd whoever is offered the gift still have the option to accept it or not.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/12/2008 11:08:11 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2300
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker
quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
Salvation is described in the Word as a gift, and that gift ceases to be the moment you require your choice to be apart of that gift.
ANd whoever is offered the gift still have the option to accept it or not.
So God does a supernatural work in individuals enabling them to have faith. Does He do that for every individual?
2 Timothy 2
25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
_____________________________
“To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect.” - John Owen
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/13/2008 12:15:18 AM
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SD456
Posts: 1502
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
There are many non-calvinists who are famous and beloved teachers/preachers/theologians, too: Arminius, Wesley, Finney, Moody, Zinzendorf.
I wouldn't exalt Finney here. How about we swap out Finney for C.S. Lewis and A.W. Tozer? Finney was semi-pelagian and therefore in very dangerous theological territory. When you deny man's inability under sin and believe that there is some good in him to do the right thing, you deny the Gospel. Arminius and Wesley were far closer theologically to Spurgeon and Edwards than most professed Arminians today.
SD, with all due respect, I don't believe you see what Calvinists hold so dear. If nothing else, it is the biblical view that God is God. He sets the rules, he chooses whoever he wills and that the power of his cross is fully sufficient to save.
Salvation is described in the Word as a free gift, and that free gift ceases to be the moment you require your choice to be apart of that gift.
Sorry, conquered, but when someone gives you a gift you need to reach out and receive it or it falls to the ground, correct? We need to receive this free gift and accept it.
God offers it to all and those who choose to accept it are saved. It's very simple in my mind. And yes, God is God still.
And not to offend you any, Conquer, but there are just as many denominations and churches in the world who are arminian in thought as there are calvinists. That division has been around since Calvin created the theology and shall be around until Jesus returns. The more conservative, like some baptist denominations are calvinists, but then there are some southern baptists which are not. Non of the pentecostal denominations are, yet they truly walk in the love and power of Christ - more so than most conservatives I've met.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 5/13/2008 12:23:53 AM >
_____________________________
MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/13/2008 1:32:14 AM
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justajerk
Posts: 35
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quote:
Sorry, conquered, but when someone gives you a gift you need to reach out and receive it or it falls to the ground, correct? We need to receive this free gift and accept it.
God offers it to all and those who choose to accept it are saved. It's very simple in my mind. And yes, God is God still. And herein lies the problem... Mans total inability to reach out towards God. Like Lazarus we are unable to participate one fraction of movement towards the righteous to recieve the gift without divine intervention.
This is the true gift, to give faith to someone who is dead in sin, who is your enemy... who, when fully exposed, hates you. To give them the gift of faith and declare them righteous. Once the stoney heart is replaced with one of flesh, and the eyes are opened to see the truth, there is no question of the reaction. Lazarus did not stay in the tomb and say "well, let me consider the options", and Saul did not take the time to study and come to a conclusion.
What room is there for boasting?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/13/2008 1:50:14 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1970
Status: offline
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One of the most appalling phenonmena among Christians seems to be the refusal to face certain Scriptures head on and deal with them as they stand. Let's look at some examples from this post.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
The pertinent questions to ask are:
1. Did Christ Jesus come into this world to save sinners?
Yes, but some will be cast into hell.
Note carefully that the Scriptures that teach that Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners, and that the world might be saved (Jn.3:17) have been totally circumvented in the above "retort" (not a response) and a completely different issue has been presented to avoid dealing with the uncomfortable Scriptures presented. This has happened again and again in this thread.
The question was not whether some sinners will be cast into Hell (which is a separate and unrelated issue). The question was did Christ come into the world to save sinners and did He indeed take away the sin of the world? And the Scriptures are crystal clear. He absolutely did.
It is because they are crystal clear and irrefutable that those of a certain persuasion are quite unable to deal with them as they are, and frankly admit that they are the Word of God, and must therefore be accepted without question. If this were to happen, all these dodges would come to an end, and all these futile arguments would become null and void.
quote:
God knew from the beginning who He would save and who He would not save.
Of course God knew from the beginning etc. but that was not the issue being discussed. Notice, once again that this is another refusal to admit that Scripture says that God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. It is another tanget designed to avoid the real truth.
quote:
Universalists believe that He came to save all sinners.
You either don't know the meaning of Universalist, or you are simply in denial about the fact that Christ Jesus came into the world to save all sinners. You are in fact resisting Scripture and the Holy Ghost, since Scripture says plainly that Christ came into the world so that the world through Him might be saved (Jn. 3:17). These are also the words of Christ, not of the evangelist. Read the context.
BTW Universalists wrongly believe that all will be saved regardless of whether they repent and believe the Gospel. This is not what Scripture reveals.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
3. Were all our sins laid upon Christ as the Lamb of God?
If Christ paid for every individual's sin, it would be unjust for God to send some individuals to hell.
Once again, please note carefully the irrelevant response to the clear Scripture that God laid the iniquity of "us all" (every sinner) on Christ (see Isaiah 53 and John 1).
Now who are you to say what is just or unjust for God to do? Where is your Scriptural foundation for such a preposterous statement? The Gospel is very clear. Every sinner must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and repent of their sins in order to be saved. Therefore God is perfectly just in sending those to Hell who refuse to obey the Gospel or simply ignore the Gospel.
Nevertheless, the Holy Spirit strives with man much more than anyone will know, but He does not "always" or forever strive with man. Those who resist the Spirit and resist the Gospel are ultimately hardened. Therefore Scripture says several times "Today if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts".
Therefore the Gospel truth is that because Christ died for all men, the Gospel must be preached "to every creature", and all men are commanded to believe and repent. If you do not believe this Gospel, then you have another gospel.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
4. Did the Lamb of God take away the sin of the world?
I believe that Conquered already explained the different meanings for "world." If the Lamb of God took away the sin of every individual, then hell is no longer necessary.
Except Conquered gave a false meaning for the "world" which means all humanity, and I already addressed it. If his interpretation is true, then it would negate the Second Greatest Commandment. Therefore it is patently false.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
5. Is Christ the Propitiation for the sins of the world?
Once again, we have to define world.
No, we do not have to define "world". Rather we have to believe what God says. It is pure unbelief to suggest that Christ is not the propitiation for the sins of the world. The verse in which this statement occurs says "not for ours only" "but ALSO for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD" (1 Jn. 2:2). Note the careful choice of words. What John is saying is that Christ died not only for the sins of those who have believed, but for the sins of the whole of humanity. Believe it.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
6. Was God in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself?
Did Jesus reconcile the whole world so that none will go to hell?
That is correct. If all men would believe the Gospel and repent, none would go to Hell. Hell was created for the devil and his angels. God made provision in Christ to save all men. The Gospel is for every creature. The commandment to repent is for ALL MEN EVERYWHERE.
But unless they meet God's conditions, they cannot be saved.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
7. Is the offer of salvation to "whosoever will"?
The offer is there. In fact, it is commanded that all men believe.
If you believe that the offer is there, then why do you not believe that it is a genuine offer, not a sham? Your theology makes it a sham because you resist God's truth that Christ died for each and every sinner. Free will comes into play in that every sinner will not believe and repent and be saved thereby. Men do resist the Holy Spirit.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 5/13/2008 2:00:54 AM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/13/2008 4:12:48 AM
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justasheep
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There has been much to think about throughout this discussion so I won't rehash what has already been addressed. But please consider what the Lord Jesus said in John 6
"I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
And later on in the chapter
"Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew form the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) and he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the father."
Jesus' emphasis seems to be quite clear not withstanding my meager attempt to emphasize that whoever in this passage is quite conditional upon the will of the Father and the working of the Spirit. Just as Jonah realized that Salvation is of the Lord, it is very important that we understand that Salvation is a miracle, akin to the rising of Lazerus and who among us would ever begin to take credit for such things. Yes indeed brothers and sisters, Salvation is completely and unequivocally of the LORD. God's will or Free will, are you serious?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/13/2008 8:28:00 AM
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justajerk
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Nice post sheep; thanks for the John 6 reference.
Welcome to the discussion.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/13/2008 9:42:30 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1970
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quote:
Just as Jonah realized that Salvation is of the Lord, it is very important that we understand that Salvation is a miracle, akin to the rising of Lazerus and who among us would ever begin to take credit for such things.
Mention of Jonah at this point is most helpful, and "taking credit" is totally irrelevant. Indeed a mere red herring. Notice from Jonah:
1. He was a most reluctant "evangelist".
2. He went to Nineveh hoping that no one would be saved.
3. He simply preached judgment.
4. ALL OF NINEVEH WAS SAVED.
5. Jonah was not pleased at all (just as some folks here would not be pleased if the whole world were to be saved).
What lesson does God want us to learn from Nineveh? That God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.
Nineveh is a microcosm of the world. Just as God saved ALL of Nineveh, He would save ALL of mankind, IF ALL WOULD REPENT.
As to "taking credit", only God can take credit for salvation since Christ Himself is both Savior and Salvation. So don't even bring up "credit". What God demands is repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. And His offer of salvation is to "whosoever will".
Note my signature at the bottom. That little word "will" is given by the Holy Spirit to teach us another lesson. That the will of man is involved in believing, receiving, and surrender to Christ.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 5/13/2008 9:49:46 AM >
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/13/2008 2:23:19 PM
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justasheep
Posts: 3
Joined: 5/13/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Mention of Jonah at this point is most helpful, and "taking credit" is totally irrelevant. Indeed a mere red herring. Notice from Jonah:
1. He was a most reluctant "evangelist".
2. He went to Nineveh hoping that no one would be saved.
3. He simply preached judgment.
4. ALL OF NINEVEH WAS SAVED.
5. Jonah was not pleased at all (just as some folks here would not be pleased if the whole world were to be saved).
I agree with your five assertions but your conclusions are predictable and the emphasis doesn't seem to be warranted in the text. Jonah's preaching must have been quite persuasive, his apologetics impeccable. 120,000 pegans believing in the the one true God seems rather incredulous. In fact I wouldn't believe it if it wasn't included in the cannon. Yes it shows God's great compassion for the lost and if you are insinuating that I see him as a compassion less God , well I'm quite familar with his compassion for he has saved me. I was lost but now am found, blind and now I see.
The radical conversion of the pagans from Ninevah can only be attributed to a radical work of the spirit, a supernatural conversion akin to both yours and mine. I agree it does display in a beautiful way that God's mercy is indescriminate and very wide. All I'm saying is that his mercy is just that from him and through him. The will of the ninevite seemed to be conquered quite radically by the mercy of God.
As for red herring, whether you believe "taking credit" is irrelevant, I'm not sure God looks at it the same way. I'm afraid Ezra that the "free will" that you espouse propels man as the sovereign and God hoping upon hoping that just one would come to him. I don't think the scriptures support that. Besides you didn't even begin to address the straight foward passage in John 6. Could you exegete this passage in a different way that might fall in line with your understanding of soteriology? I'm curious.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/13/2008 2:35:26 PM
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justajerk
Posts: 35
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline
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exegete? or eisegete... 
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/13/2008 3:33:28 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 117
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
The question was not whether some sinners will be cast into Hell (which is a separate and unrelated issue).
This is absurd. Hell and salvation are absolutely related. You can't divorce the consequences of salvation from its opposite here just to force fit your argument.
The Scriptures are clear...he who is saved is rewarded with eternal life and he who is damned is cast into hell.
quote:
The question was did Christ come into the world to save sinners and did He indeed take away the sin of the world? And the Scriptures are crystal clear. He absolutely did.
Yes, Christ came to save sinners but not to save every sinner without exception. On this point the Scriptures are absolutely clear.
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You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/13/2008 3:36:18 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 117
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Sorry, conquered, but when someone gives you a gift you need to reach out and receive it or it falls to the ground, correct? We need to receive this free gift and accept it.
God offers it to all and those who choose to accept it are saved. It's very simple in my mind. And yes, God is God still.
The gift of salvation from God is two fold:
1. It brings the desire to receive it.
2. It gives eternal life to those who do.
Your desire to reach for Christ was not your own.
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/13/2008 3:42:55 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 117
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
What lesson does God want us to learn from Nineveh? That God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.
Nineveh is a microcosm of the world. Just as God saved ALL of Nineveh, He would save ALL of mankind, IF ALL WOULD REPENT.
But since not all do come, how do reconcile it against your view? Will you ever bother to answer this question?
quote:
Note my signature at the bottom. That little word "will" is given by the Holy Spirit to teach us another lesson. That the will of man is involved in believing, receiving, and surrender to Christ
Whosoever will let him come! Amen. But the will to first come is not your will, it's his. You were not wise enough, clever enough, or good enough in yourself to come to God on your own. God had to enable your desire to come. Once you were able, you may have thought it was your will "willing" you to come (we are all prone to such arrogance) but indeed if you do come it was God all along from first to last.
_____________________________
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. - John 15:16
www.desiringgod.org
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/13/2008 4:36:16 PM
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justajerk
Posts: 35
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline
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Salvation.
Our view:
John1:45Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." 46Nathanael said to him, "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, "Come and see."
God's view:
John1:43 The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He found Philip and said to him, "Follow me."
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/13/2008 4:44:05 PM
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