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Fortydays -> Gods will or Free will (4/28/2008 11:49:43 AM)

If its Gods will how can we have free will? I hope this does not sound like a dum question.



Ignited-Faith -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/28/2008 11:53:46 AM)

It's Both!
Free-will and Predestination go hand in hand!
(God already knows everyones heart!)

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Romans 8:28-30



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/28/2008 11:54:52 AM)

No question is dumb.

He desires us to express our love to Him by submitting to His will...


That is exactly what Jesus did. His struggle in the Garden right before the cross was so incredibly fierce. His submission to the Father's will proved His perfect love for the Father.



SavedByGraceMD -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/28/2008 11:58:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fortydays

If its Gods will how can we have free will? I hope this does not sound like a dum question.

Well, we have free will to choose to follow God. He gives us the option to heed his words, and follow his commands, or to do what we want. We realize that by living our own way, that we are lost and unable to be truly happy, so we give our lives unto Gods will. But the free will he gives us is pertaining to the choice we have to follow him or to live for ourself. Which comes with the understanding that if we deny to follow him, there will be consequences that we will have to answer for.



mvic -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/28/2008 12:05:27 PM)

It is not a dumb question. Far from it. It's a question that many have struggled with through the ages; and not doubt will continue to struggle with for ever.

God gave man free will to choose good from evil. We choose which way we want to lead our lives - and yet, God knows how each one of us will choose. It's difficult, almost impossible, to understand.

There are those who believe that Pilate and Judas did what they did because they were following a pre-determined plan set by God - i.e. no choice there. Even Jesus when praying before He was arrested asked for His future to be different - then added: Not my will, but Yours. This also suggests (as you hint in your question) that there was no Free Will there too.

So what are we to make of it? Do we continue to struggle as many have done before us with this question? Or do we trust in Him in total blind Faith that He knows what He is doing?

This is not to say that you were wrong to ask. It's a good question which, for now at least, will remain un-answered to everyone's satisfaction.



AboundinginHisGrace -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/28/2008 1:09:35 PM)

Both. The bible says no man seeks God. So without the convicting of the Holy Spirit no one will become a Christian. But some believe salvation is only for a certain few. I believe salvation is for all man. 2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
1John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
I dont have all the answers concerning election/freewill. I dont think anyone does. Thats what makes the bible so great its so simple a child can understand but its so complex the most intellectial man will never truly understand it all, what a powerful God we serve.



mariadreamer -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/29/2008 1:02:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fortydays

If its Gods will how can we have free will? I hope this does not sound like a dum question.

But are you assuming God's will is done constantly and by everyone? If I sin, it is not God's will. I sin of my own choosing. God's will is the salvation of mankind.



Conquered -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/29/2008 1:22:34 AM)

quote:

If I sin, it is not God's will.


So does this mean that all the sins that God orchestrated around Jesus' death, and in order for him to die and rise again so that you might find forgiveness for your sins, were not according to God's will?

This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,put him to death by nailing him to the cross. - Acts 2:23



Sammy_S -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/29/2008 1:33:26 AM)

How can a slave of sin have free-will?



mariadreamer -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/29/2008 1:42:25 AM)

quote:

So does this mean that all the sins that God orchestrated around Jesus' death, and in order for him to die and rise again so that you might find forgiveness for your sins, were not according to God's will?

I do not believe God orchestrated sins. Putting Christ to death is the reaction of sinful humanity to the presence of God. When we choose sin over God, we are putting Christ to death in ourselves in a similar manner.



mariadreamer -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/29/2008 1:46:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy_S

How can a slave of sin have free-will?

Thanks for that question. I guess your theological tradition might be different in its understanding of free will. In our faith we see free will being largely restricted by enslavement to sin, but not completely. We believe that the image of God in which we were created is still there, but got clouded and darkened by sin.



Conquered -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/29/2008 1:56:27 AM)

quote:

I do not believe God orchestrated sins. Putting Christ to death is the reaction of sinful humanity to the presence of God. When we choose sin over God, we are putting Christ to death in ourselves in a similar manner.


So Jesus' death, and the salvation that comes through him, was just the result of random chance? I doubt you believe this.

You don't think that God foreknew that the "reaction of sinful humanity in the presence of God" would carry the exact chain of events that God foretold through the prophets hundreds of years before they happened?



Conquered -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/29/2008 2:03:52 AM)

quote:

In our faith we see free will being largely restricted by enslavement to sin, but not completely.


As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. - Ephesians 2:1-2

The dead cannot choose life from the grave anymore than the spirtually dead can choose spiritual life. Dead wills lack the capacity to choose leternal life.



mariadreamer -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/29/2008 9:32:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrokenMessenger

quote:

I do not believe God orchestrated sins. Putting Christ to death is the reaction of sinful humanity to the presence of God. When we choose sin over God, we are putting Christ to death in ourselves in a similar manner.


So Jesus' death, and the salvation that comes through him, was just the result of random chance? I doubt you believe this.

You don't think that God foreknew that the "reaction of sinful humanity in the presence of God" would carry the exact chain of events that God foretold through the prophets hundreds of years before they happened?

Yes, of course God foreknew, but equating foreknowledge with causation is within the tradition of Augustinianism and those who followed that, not within all Christianity and certainly not within the ancient Church. So we hold that while He foreknew, He didn't "orchestrate" sins. Sins were committed by choice. I think the majority of the Church Fathers held that Christ's incarnation would have happened even if humanity didn't fall, but because it was fallen, the incarnation of God and Him taking on the human nature now had to include the taking on of our sins, and even death. So death was going to happen, if the Son of God chose to freely submit to it and accept it. He did, and thus destroyed death and offered salvation onto mankind through participation in Him, for which I am so thankful.



Conquered -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/29/2008 10:23:22 AM)

quote:

Yes, of course God foreknew, but equating foreknowledge with causation is within the tradition of Augustinianism and those who followed that, not within all Christianity and certainly not within the ancient Church.


I'd say that your argument is with Paul and therefore Jesus, not Augustine...

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. -Romans 8:29-30

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." - Ephesians 1:4-6

quote:

So we hold that while He foreknew, He didn't "orchestrate" sins.


If you anticipate your child grabbing a rose bush and permit them to do so to learn a lesson, who is exerting the greater will? The child who you've allowed to indulge their limited will, who does not understand the danger, or you who predsides over the situation with every capability to stop the child and warn them of that danger?

quote:

Sins were committed by choice.


Sin is committed due to the enslavement that all humans suffer under, who have no choice but to act according to their nature.

"There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one." -Romans 3:10-12

If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. - John 15:5

"Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?" Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin." - John 19:10-11

Though Pilate believed in "free will," Jesus clearly corrected him. Pilate was only as free as God would allow or empower him to do so.

quote:

So death was going to happen, if the Son of God chose to freely submit to it and accept it.


1. Jesus was God then, is God now and will forever be God. Do you think that you have the same capacity to choose as God does? Can you just choose to create new universes into being? Can you even command your heart to start and stop as you wish? What about all those thoughts that scurry around in your mind? Did you freely will each of those?

2. What do you mean by "So death was going happen?" If God foreknew the circumstances and sent himself to die as foretold hundreds of years earlier how is not that according to his will, particularly when the Scriptures say that it was planned before the foundation of the world:

For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. - 1 Peter 1:20

It is all over Scripture that God planned the death of his Son. It didn't just happen by accident.

quote:

He did, and thus destroyed death and offered salvation onto mankind through participation in Him, for which I am so thankful.


We don't merely participate in Jesus if we would be owned, be ruled by God:

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body." -1 Corinthians 6:20



kung_fu_sed -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/29/2008 12:52:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fortydays

If its Gods will how can we have free will? I hope this does not sound like a dum question.


Free will is the freedom to chose every second if we are going to follow God's will, or satan's.



AboundinginHisGrace -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/29/2008 1:18:11 PM)

We aren't saying that God didn't know what was going to happen. Thats what makes creation so wonderful. That eventhough he knew all this was going to happen and he knew he would have to send his Son to die for us, He made us anyway. So, you are saying that God willed Adam and Eve to sin so all this could happen? I have a problem with that. I understand what you mean when we are dead in our trespasses, that is true, but through the holy spirit we are convicted and we are able to find life, life that is more abundant. We are not saying we do some work to receive it. Ok here is an analogy (not very good but i hope it gets my point across). Ok if I were to build a house for you and I said here is the keys its yours. You take the keys, who did the work... Not the person who took the keys, eventhough, he had to physically take it from my hands, but the person who made the house. I feel this is same way it is with Christ. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. -Romans 8:29-30
This just tells me that those who he knew would become Christians and do are going to be transformed into His likeness. True Christians will be changed.



AboundinginHisGrace -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/29/2008 1:34:04 PM)

quote:

"Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?" Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin." - John 19:10-11

Though Pilate believed in "free will," Jesus clearly corrected him. Pilate was only as free as God would allow or empower him to do


I think you are taking that out of context. I think this proves freewill not disproves.



Conquered -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/29/2008 6:22:24 PM)

quote:

I think this proves freewill not disproves.


How?

Pilate tells Jesus "Don't you know that I have the power to set you free?" and Jesus essentially says, "You only have freedom insomuch as God has given you." That's not "free will" as it is understood today. Pilate's will was governed by a higher will, a will that superceded his own.



Conquered -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/29/2008 7:41:18 PM)

quote:

We aren't saying that God didn't know what was going to happen. Thats what makes creation so wonderful. That eventhough he knew all this was going to happen and he knew he would have to send his Son to die for us, He made us anyway.


But you don’t believe that it was God’s will for you to be born. For if you did, you would have to concede that in God’s will to make us, there would also be need for him to will the patience to endure our sinful nature - as all his chosen live under until such time of their repentance.

For while we are yet sinners, Christ died for us. – Romans 5:8

quote:

So, you are saying that God willed Adam and Eve to sin so all this could happen?


Yes. But I’m not saying this…the Scriptures say this. I'm just drawing conclusions from what they say.

“If a man sins against another man, God may mediate for him; but if a man sins against the LORD, who will intercede for him?" His sons, however, did not listen to their father's rebuke, for it was the LORD's will to put them to death. – 1 Samuel 2:25

God prohibited Eli’s sons to hear their father’s rebuke and repent because he willed for them to be put to death, but in that will, there must also have been the will to allow them to continue sinning until the time of judgment – in their case, until they were killed in battle.


quote:

I understand what you mean when we are dead in our trespasses, that is true, but through the holy spirit we are convicted and we are able to find life, life that is more abundant. We are not saying we do some work to receive it. Ok here is an analogy (not very good but i hope it gets my point across). Ok if I were to build a house for you and I said here is the keys its yours. You take the keys, who did the work... Not the person who took the keys, even though, he had to physically take it from my hands, but the person who made the house. I feel this is same way it is with Christ.


Salvation is by the grace of God through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and this faith is of God from first to last…from faith to faith as Paul says. So to explain what I mean by building on your analogy, imagine your built house and the offer of the keys but then imagine that Christ must also give you the desire to reach for keys. The Scriptures say that in your natural state you are not wise enough, righteous enough, humble enough, or even morally strong enough to take the keys. In your own strength you will always reject the offer, or call it foolish or even try to pay for the house even though the offer is a free gift.

And taking, even taking keys from the hand to own the house, is still a work. Granted, in this instance almost all the work would have been done by the builder, but the owner still needs to reach, he still has a tiny bit of claim for ownership. Not so with salvation, from first to last it is of the Lord – even that first desire to desire him.



uniteforlife -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/29/2008 10:45:24 PM)

Sorry, wrong thread



mariadreamer -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/29/2008 11:33:37 PM)

Dear brokenmessenger,

I fear you misunderstand me, no I do not believe it was random chance. I do not disagree with the scriptures you quoted but we hold to different understandings of them, so arguing over it would be like comparing apples to oranges. The entire interpretive framework of your tradition, along with its definitions of every word of scripture, the meaning of salvation and even understanding who God is, the whole thing is COMPLETELY different from the way we look at scripture. (The historical Church affirms that Holy Scripture is a seemless whole with the life of the Church and the understanding of God as He revealed Himself to her. )

To sum it up returning to the OP, here is the view I hold to. As St. Paul and the Holy Tradition tells us, we are "co-workers with God", meaning it's a synergy. God does a lot more than we can, but we also need to respond. As I said, our free will is restricted by sin, so the process of theosis is the road toward freedom. I know, it's a huge topic, perhaps Fortydays got a lot more than he expected here...



Conquered -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/30/2008 12:05:03 AM)

quote:

I fear you misunderstand me, no I do not believe it was random chance.


Maria, I have no idea what you believe, but simply based on what you've put forward, this is the inevitable conclusion of your position.


quote:

As St. Paul and the Holy Tradition tells us, we are "co-workers with God", meaning it's a synergy.


I do not see much synergy in Paul's conversion and I certainly see none of it in Scripture.

quote:

As I said, our free will is restricted by sin, so the process of theosis is the road toward freedom.


Yes, you have said it, but you can't prove it by Scripture. You are forced to go beyond it and contradict it to make this conclusion.

Any church or tradition either proceeds from Scripture or it is an invention of sinful creatures that are hopelessly chained to a nature that will destroy them, save faith in Jesus Christ. The early church fathers understood this as well as anyone.



AboundinginHisGrace -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/30/2008 7:42:28 AM)

This is pointless. I know what I believe and what the scriptures say. You know what you believe and what the scriptures say. I don't fully understand it. I don't think anyone does. But I do know that if you take it to far in any direction be it Calvinism or Armenian you can be in trouble . I am about 3.5/4 on the tulip if you let me explain it. But most people don't know that Calvin didn't even come up with TULIP. I do know without God intervening we will not seek him, but I do think you can resist it. I do feel that prayer/God's Will/Hearing the Word all those do determine how "resistible" it is. But the Bible clearly, CLEARLY states that Christ died for ALL not parts of the world or people all the over world BUT THE WHOLE WORLD. 1 John 2:2, john 3:16 and numerous others. I just do not see limited atonement based on the scriptures. The bible doesn't contradict itself and there tons of places where the scriptures say he died for all (not elect) and yes I looked up the Greek/Hebrew meanings to those words. I love you brother and I by no means think you are a bad person or a non-Christian. I respect you and your opinion, All I know is God came to me and i accepted him and have never been the same. And I am told and compelled to do his will and to tell others about his Mercy and Grace. May God Bless you and your family.



justajerk -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/30/2008 1:06:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace

This is pointless. I know what I believe and what the scriptures say. You know what you believe and what the scriptures say. I don't fully understand it. I don't think anyone does.

Sorry for jumping in here, but I don't think this is pointless at all... I am very interested in this discussion and there have been some good (I might even say strong) points made.
I have some questions on this and would like to hear more.
Such as Aboundings reference to 1 John 2:2 and John 3:16. How do these verses line up with some others that speak directly of a certain group? Jesus talks about His flock and I always thought that was the whole world (like 1 John 2:2) but, but that doesn't make sense when I look at some other verses.



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