RE: Who will stand?

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CherishedbyGod -> RE: Who will stand? (4/30/2008 8:59:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames Kinda, sorta sounds as though we do have a responsibility in spreading the Gospel. Are you doing your part? Thanks RC Of course he is, Pastor James.....

SonInMe1 -> RE: Who will stand? (4/30/2008 9:40:18 PM)
Having faith and living like Jesus is entirely different than saving people, which I don't believe we can. We can.. love like Jesus.. act like Jesus... present the good news... but it is God who saves. My part? That...would be a thread unto itself. Lets just say whatever I do for the Lord I invoke Matthew chapter 6 and leave it at that. Maybe I am selfish but whatever treasure I have in heaven....I want to keep. Maybe this discussion isn't so much taking a stand for Jesus as much as it is....which stand. With so many doctrines out there if we all took hardline stands, it would be really....confusing. Our stand really is love. Love is many things as described in 1 Corinthians 13 but the other posters also are correct that love does not delight in evil. That love while it is patient it also rebukes.

pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/1/2008 12:27:05 AM)
SonInMe... Why do you say "It Can." He, The Holy Spirit, does. 'It is written' that He does.... however... we have to allow Him to. We have to be willing vessels. Unfortunately, I believe the reason folks don't allow the Holy Spirit to preach conviction through them, is because they then, would have to be convicted themselves. No-one is asking anyone to get on Rick Warren's bandwagon. God love him, he has done a great job... however, I myself have only been able to get through the first two chapters of Purpose Driven Life. However, the youth program, "Life Hurts, God Heals" is excellent and has had great results. And third... "Lady pastor's".... That's simply your simple opinion. If you will read Acts, there is reference to "Philip's daughters." This reference to Philips daughters, each excercising the gifts of prophesy makes clear that women did bring God's Word by the power of The Holy Spirit and that such ministry was fully accepted in the early church. This is reinforced by Paul in 1 Cor 11:5, where he directs, 1. that a woman may prophesy, but, 2. that she must be properly "covered," that is, rightly related to her husband or other spiritual authority, a regulation incumbant upon all spiritual leaders, male or female (1 Tim 3: 1-13). I believe in the order that God has set forth, God-Christ-Man-Woman. And I am covered by my senior pastor, my husband... in whom has all authority over me. There are many other scriptures relating to women preaching... but that is for another post. I have put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into my title and ordination, and am not ashamed to preach the Gospel of Christ. Suffice it to say that when Paul spoke of the women in 1 Cor 14:34 who were to keep silent... he was refering to a particular group of women who were given to gossip and causing division... much like some I have seen in these forums. God Bless you... Pastor Debi

pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/1/2008 12:47:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deliveredarling I think we take a stand every time we question strange doctrine or theology. It seems here in the past year, I have this experience over and over. It's hard when the message isn't popular. It doesn't feel good to hear it, so people run from it. This mentality that if it doesn't feel good, then it can't be from God. Well, Jesus says differently. That, take up your cross, thing...... He told us to count the cost BEFORE we make the decision. Seems to me that this is quite telling. I wonder if this means that if we don't do this, when the day comes, will He say to those who do not take up the cross, "Depart from me, for I never knew you?" Sounds like this very well could be the case! AMEN!!! When God will say "Depart from Me..." He is talking about those who are neither hot nor cold... the lukewarm whom He wil "spew from His mouth." Wow. I definately do not want to be puke. And yes... I believe that those who do not take up thier cross, as Christ TOLD us to... could fall into that catagory. God Bless you... Pastor Debi

deliveredarling -> RE: Who will stand? (5/1/2008 5:30:07 AM)
I forgot about that verse, the lukewarm one.. That is an excellent example!!!!! Pastor Debi, you know that doing God's work is not easy. Let me encourage you to keep moving. The reception you have received on this forum amazes me. It doesn't present itself in true form. Normally, everyone is very welcoming and for the most part loving. Please don't be run off by the negative... Welcome and may God continue to bless the work you and your husband are doing.

SonInMe1 -> RE: Who will stand? (5/1/2008 8:41:20 AM)
quote: We have to be willing vessels. Our will can only sin. We submit to God by His power in us, the Holy Spirit. If you rebel against your master, and that is only accomplished by using your free will, then you endanger your sanity...serving two masters. If you are saved your will is not your's. You have submitted to Christ. That...is salvation. Sure you can rebel, but there are consequences for that. quote: I believe the reason folks don't allow the Holy Spirit to preach conviction through them, is because they then, would have to be convicted themselves. We would ALL be hypocrits if we spoke rebuke...on our merits. There was a brother at my old church who "took me aside" and told me I should lose weight. I guess since he had just lost a buncha weight, he figured God told him to tell me that. Funny thing... I saw him a few years later, we had moved away, and he had gained all of his weight back. Now, what he said was definitley true. I am not sure it was Holy Spirit led. It could have been. quote: No-one is asking anyone to get on Rick Warren's bandwagon My comments about Pastor Warren wasn't so much about his programs and such as much as it was to caution you to the fact that many in these forums are not his supporters and mentioning his name might bring some criticism wether the programs are great...or not. quote: And third... "Lady pastor's".... That's simply your simple opinion. If you will read Acts, there is reference to "Philip's daughters." This reference to Philips daughters, each excercising the gifts of prophesy makes clear that women did bring God's Word by the power of The Holy Spirit and that such ministry was fully accepted in the early church. Not to sidetrack this thread on this issue, but prophets are not spiritual leaders as pastors are. They hold no spiritual authority as pastors do and the bible is 100% clear...women cannot have spiritual authority over men.

ta_mosquito -> RE: Who will stand? (5/1/2008 8:54:39 AM)
MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE I have a feeling the thread will continue to be derailed by the "women in ministry" side topic. Please take that part of the discussion to the one-stop thread, located HERE. Thanks! Tricia Forums Moderator Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat. Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns. Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.

pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/1/2008 1:09:58 PM)
I am being very sincere and honest when I ask... what are y'all reading? Maybe it's the version... I don't know. I personaly use NKJ... however we have a library of Bibles (various versions for cross-reference) and they all pretty much say the same thing... quote: ORIGINAL: Liveloved Do you think "taking a stand" on doctrinal issues is what Jesus did? When did He "take a stand" against alcoholism, for example? or homosexuality? I don't think Jesus took stands. He lived and spoke and taught and loved truth. And therein lies the difference. It was the Pharisees who took stands against others and their sins. They brought the woman caught in adultery to Jesus. They were "taking a stand" against sin. And what did Jesus do? Jesus is love in the very finest sense. He is the very example of love... however, He also was adament about sin. Yes... Jesus took a stand... against sin! He was bold and courageous as well as being loving. If I was approached by a group of people (Christians) who were in willful sin, and I said, "get away from me... you practice sin" would you think I stood for love? Yet Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in our name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness." Lawlessness is sin and He took a stand against it. In Matthew 11:21 Jesus says to the cities of Chorazin and Bethsaida, "Woe to you..." The Hebrew for woe is "tsa'ar" which carries the conotation of deep grief; sorrow; misery; heavy calamity... He is telling them this because they were impenitent cities. The "deep grief" comes from His knowing that they are in sin, won't repent and are doomed to hell. Again, taking a stand against sin. And in Matthew 10:34 Jesus declares, "Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Does this sound like the picture of love and meekness? Jesus was both... that is why you cannot have love without conviction of sin. If we love someone, we will hold them accountable for their sin in love. In regard to homosexuality 1 Cor. 6:9 tells us, " Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor theives, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the Kingdom of God." That is pretty black and white to me. Lets also look at Matthew 24:48-51, "But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." quote: ORIGINAL: Liveloved Oh, Delivered. . .He died. He layed down His life. He gave up His life. Please don't be offended. I do not mean to offend you. I love you. You are a dear sister in the Lord. But this discussion is the very discussion Jesus had with the religious people of His day. And He humbled Himself to the point of death on a cross. Humbling yourself and taking a stand are very different. Truly He abolished sin for us on the cross but He did it by dying, by giving up, by laying down His life. If He'd called in the angels and set up His kingdom, you could say He took a stand. He did not. He said Thy will be done and was crucified. He was not standing. He was dying. For us. For you and for me. That's what I know. "...and on the third day He rose again...." 1 Cor 15:4. He arose because He took a stand against the enemy... the author of sin and disgrace. "Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen." Rev. 1:7 God bless you... Pastor Debi

pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/1/2008 1:22:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SonInMe1 quote: And third... "Lady pastor's".... That's simply your simple opinion. If you will read Acts, there is reference to "Philip's daughters." This reference to Philips daughters, each excercising the gifts of prophesy makes clear that women did bring God's Word by the power of The Holy Spirit and that such ministry was fully accepted in the early church. Not to sidetrack this thread on this issue, but prophets are not spiritual leaders as pastors are. They hold no spiritual authority as pastors do and the bible is 100% clear...women cannot have spiritual authority over men. I will not address this any further here. As I said, and I agree with our moderator, that is for another thread. However, I believe I addressed authority: quote: ORIGINAL: pstrdebi 2. that she must be properly "covered," that is, rightly related to her husband or other spiritual authority, a regulation incumbant upon all spiritual leaders, male or female (1 Tim 3: 1-13). I believe in the order that God has set forth, God-Christ-Man-Woman. And I am covered by my senior pastor, my husband... in whom has all authority over me.

CherishedbyGod -> RE: Who will stand? (5/1/2008 1:30:36 PM)
But, Debi, you don't know if someone is in willful sin. You don't know their hearts! How do you know that someone is not struggling to be set free from their sin? That is often the case! And for you to "take a stand" against someone like that is condemnation and judgement! And doing that may sink them further into despair and hopelessness. You don't know a person's heart, do you? How in the world to you know if a person is in willful sin or is still in sin and seeking desperately to be set free? You very well may be beating a believer up and sending them further into a pit by insisting they do something they are already trying desperately to do!

pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/1/2008 1:39:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deliveredarling I forgot about that verse, the lukewarm one.. That is an excellent example!!!!! Pastor Debi, you know that doing God's work is not easy. Let me encourage you to keep moving. The reception you have received on this forum amazes me. It doesn't present itself in true form. Normally, everyone is very welcoming and for the most part loving. Please don't be run off by the negative... Welcome and may God continue to bless the work you and your husband are doing. Thank you very much... I appreciate your kindness. And believe me... I won't be run off by the negative. Everyone has their opinions. My husband believe that in the church, there are "Convictions" "Opinions" and "Persuasions" Convictions are the things we stand for: Jesus is the Son of God, the Trinity, Jesus died and rose, etc. These are the things that would divide a church... meaning if someone does not believe that Jesus is the Son of God, we shouldn't take part in that church. Opinions are an idea or non fact. An opinion is a person's ideas and thoughts towards something. It is an assessment, judgment or evaluation of something. An opinion is not a fact, because opinions are either not falsifiable, or the opinion has not been proven or verified. These opinions might be things like Women preaching or teaching, dunk or sprinkle (baptism), etc. And these 'opinions' should never divide a church. Persuasions are a form of social influence. It is the process of guiding people toward the adoption of an idea, attitude, or action by rational and symbolic (though not always logical) means. Neither should these divide a church. Thank you again and may God richly bless you! Pastor Debi

zamdad -> RE: Who will stand? (5/1/2008 1:55:27 PM)
quote: But, Debi, you don't know if someone is in willful sin. You don't know their hearts! How do you know that someone is not struggling to be set free from their sin? That is often the case! And for you to "take a stand" against someone like that is condemnation and judgement! And doing that may sink them further into despair and hopelessness. You don't know a person's heart, do you? How in the world to you know if a person is in willful sin or is still in sin and seeking desperately to be set free? You very well may be beating a believer up and sending them further into a pit by insisting they do something they are already trying desperately to do! How well do any of us know the hearts of others? Jesus Himself had divine insight. He knew the people He met. He spoke to them in ways that caused them to desire change. For us, getting to know someone that well takes work. All too often we aren't willing to take the effort to really get to know those we want to minister to. when you get down to it, our desire is to fill their head with knowledge and send them on their way. We don't stick around long enough to help that head knowledge work its way down to the heart. After my time spent working with sex offenders, I am quite convinced I got to know what was in an individuals heart. That their sin was willful sin and the desire to change was nothing more than a verbal expression to turn down the heat at the moment of confrontation. It's not condemnation when we take a stand against someone who continues doing the same thing expecting different results. If we are going to change behavior, we have to change thinking which means we have to change attitudes, values and beliefs. Bringing about this type of change does not come until we take the time to invest in another person and walk with them throguh this process of change.

pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/1/2008 1:58:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod But, Debi, you don't know if someone is in willful sin. You don't know their hearts! How do you know that someone is not struggling to be set free from their sin? That is often the case! And for you to "take a stand" against someone like that is condemnation and judgement! And doing that may sink them further into despair and hopelessness. You don't know a person's heart, do you? How in the world to you know if a person is in willful sin or is still in sin and seeking desperately to be set free? You very well may be beating a believer up and sending them further into a pit by insisting they do something they are already trying desperately to do! Cherished... I fully understand your heart, and what you are trying to say. I agree that in some or many cases we do not know if the person is "desperately seeking to be set free"... and that is why we fortunately have the Holy Spirit. And no, in those cases I am not going to beat anyone up over their sin. Those are the folks you gently come along side of and take your time with and minister to. However, in a gentle and loving manner... you can still point out the sin and disciple them. Now... let me ask you this question. (and this is a real situation within our body)... if you are a Christian mom or even a Christian sister... and you have a daughter or know of a young woman who is also a Christian for many years who is in the body... and is living in sin, not married to her partner and continues to say that God doesn't require a license... are you not going to hold your child accountable, knowing that they are in willfull sin? There are always exceptions... We are still called to hold each other accountable, as Christians. When ministering to non-Christians... of course we take a different tact... yet we still point out the sin in order to bring them to repentance... in love. "And we have such trust through Jesus Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." 2 Cor 3:4-6 Much love... Pastor Debi

deliveredarling -> RE: Who will stand? (5/1/2008 4:46:34 PM)
"and ye will know them by their fruits". This is where the rubber meets the road. This is where we see when a person is offering lip service or action oriented change. It takes time to walk with them and beside them. Do this long enough and you will see the pattern that develops in these individuals. it's not about us judging hearts, it is about their heart revealing their nature. People change when God directs them to change, no matter what we do. IT IS NOT ABOUT US, it is ABOUT HIM. We cause a lot of harm when we operate from our own desires for others. We harm others when we consider them VICTIMS because they suffer consequences. Allowing someone to remain in the victim category offers no motivation for them to change at all. It is simply great when an addict can sucker someone in to conforming to their way of thinking. Then they have hit the jackpot!!!!!!! No accountability means no consequences and certainly NO CHANGE.

Liveloved -> RE: Who will stand? (5/1/2008 5:32:33 PM)
quote: I am being very sincere and honest when I ask... what are y'all reading? Maybe it's the version... I don't know. I personaly use NKJ... however we have a library of Bibles (various versions for cross-reference) and they all pretty much say the same thing... Debi, I do not doubt either your sincerity or honesty and I thank you for asking. We can make assumptions or we can ask and seek truth. Thanks for being a truth seeker. I use the NASB but I, too, have a library of Bibles and consult them. We are reading the same words but, obviously, hearing a different message. So I will give you the example of Jesus reclining at the table where He was dining with tax gatherers, sinners and His disciples. And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax gatherers and sinners?" But when He heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Matthew 9:11-13 The Pharisees thought Jesus should be 'taking a stand against sin' just as they were. The Pharisees were standing above and apart from the sinners. But where was Jesus? Jesus was sitting WITH the sinners, dining and fellowshiping with them. And what did Jesus say? Depart from me sinners??? NO. Jesus said to the Pharisees, the 'righteous' ones, "go and learn what this means, I desire compassion, and not sacrifice". The Pharisees wanted to take a stand against sin. Jesus wanted to be sin for man. And that is very different. They stood. He layed down His life. Debi, to go and learn what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE', has been my life's journey with Jesus. By nature we are more like the Pharisee, ready to oppose sinful men, to strike, to put down, and to not love. But Jesus said we need to learn something different than 'our nature'. We are to learn His ways and let Him live through us. And that does not come easily or quickly(usually). The 2x4 is still too easy to pick up. But Jesus says lay it down, give it up, and join Me in coming close and loving the lost. That's the place I want to be, with Him. Bless ya, LL[:)]

zamdad -> RE: Who will stand? (5/1/2008 5:44:08 PM)
quote: Debi, to go and learn what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE', has been my life's journey with Jesus. By nature we are more like the Pharisee, ready to oppose sinful men, to strike, to put down, and to not love. But Jesus said we need to learn something different than 'our nature'. We are to learn His ways and let Him live through us. And that does not come easily or quickly(usually). The 2x4 is still too easy to pick up. But Jesus says lay it down, give it up, and join Me in coming close and loving the lost. That's the place I want to be, with Him. I have not gotten the impression form Debi that her minsitry is akin to that of the pharisees. I have seen some phariseeical responses in this thread as in many other threads. What she has laid out in the example given was working with someone. walking along side and finally having to say enough. I began to write in my last post, but decided to leave it out, that my position required me to bring a form of judgment on those I worked with. In addition to working with them in the change process, it was my job to write reports to the court illustrating those failures and making a recommendation to the court as to the consequence. What does loving the lost mean? It seems we all too often get different mental pictures when it comes to the word "love." As someone in the justice system, I have seen far too many Christians try to love people into the kingdom while an "offender" has walked all over them and made no demonstrable effort at truly wanting to change. Again, we have to stay true to the gospel, be wise as serpents and gentle as doves. We ahve to be willing to see behind the mask and let the mask wearer know who it is we see.

Liveloved -> RE: Who will stand? (5/1/2008 6:54:24 PM)
quote: I have not gotten the impression form Debi that her minsitry is akin to that of the pharisees. Zamdad, No one has said that except for you. I am responding to Debi's post to me (post #33). If you will read her post, you might better understand my response. We can seek to understand one another or we can seek to misunderstand. I'm seeking to understand. [:)]LL

pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/1/2008 7:27:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Liveloved quote: I am being very sincere and honest when I ask... what are y'all reading? Maybe it's the version... I don't know. I personaly use NKJ... however we have a library of Bibles (various versions for cross-reference) and they all pretty much say the same thing... Debi, I do not doubt either your sincerity or honesty and I thank you for asking. We can make assumptions or we can ask and seek truth. Thanks for being a truth seeker. I use the NASB but I, too, have a library of Bibles and consult them. We are reading the same words but, obviously, hearing a different message. So I will give you the example of Jesus reclining at the table where He was dining with tax gatherers, sinners and His disciples. And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax gatherers and sinners?" But when He heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Matthew 9:11-13 The Pharisees thought Jesus should be 'taking a stand against sin' just as they were. The Pharisees were standing above and apart from the sinners. But where was Jesus? Jesus was sitting WITH the sinners, dining and fellowshiping with them. And what did Jesus say? Depart from me sinners??? NO. Jesus said to the Pharisees, the 'righteous' ones, "go and learn what this means, I desire compassion, and not sacrifice". The Pharisees wanted to take a stand against sin. Jesus wanted to be sin for man. And that is very different. They stood. He layed down His life. Debi, to go and learn what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE', has been my life's journey with Jesus. By nature we are more like the Pharisee, ready to oppose sinful men, to strike, to put down, and to not love. But Jesus said we need to learn something different than 'our nature'. We are to learn His ways and let Him live through us. And that does not come easily or quickly(usually). The 2x4 is still too easy to pick up. But Jesus says lay it down, give it up, and join Me in coming close and loving the lost. That's the place I want to be, with Him. Bless ya, LL[:)] Liveloved... Thank you for your continued input on this matter. I appreciate that there are folks who have a keen interest in serving our Lord. I do want to mention, however, that you only addressed the fact that I asked about the version of bibles folks were reading... and completely missed the fact that I was trying to get across that Christ is both love and our just judge. 1 Cor 11:31-32 says, "For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world." (and I think this verse describes some of what zamdad has been saying) Once again... no-one is saying NOT to dine with the prostetutes and drug addicts. Believe me, God has me doing this more than I can count... but He NEVER once has told us to not hold them accountable or to warn them that we are in the last days, etc. We cannot any longer preach the "I'm ok your ok" ministry. 2 Timothy 4:1-5 tells us, "I charge you, therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His Kingdom: Preach the Word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all long suffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fullfill your ministry." Someone mentioned earlier that "we cannot save them..." And James 5: 19-20 says, "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." We can not pick and choose the parts of Jesus that we want, the same as we can not pick and choose the parts of the bible we want. It is all a package deal. That would be the same thinking as those who only want to believe there is a heaven and deny there is a hell. I love folks enough to tell them the truth. I do not want that ANY should perish... just as Jesus said. Much love... Pastor Debi

CherishedbyGod -> RE: Who will stand? (5/1/2008 8:05:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Liveloved So I will give you the example of Jesus reclining at the table where He was dining with tax gatherers, sinners and His disciples. And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax gatherers and sinners?" But when He heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Matthew 9:11-13 Debi, to go and learn what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE', has been my life's journey with Jesus. By nature we are more like the Pharisee, ready to oppose sinful men, to strike, to put down, and to not love. But Jesus said we need to learn something different than 'our nature'. We are to learn His ways and let Him live through us. And that does not come easily or quickly(usually). The 2x4 is still too easy to pick up. But Jesus says lay it down, give it up, and join Me in coming close and loving the lost. That's the place I want to be, with Him. Bless ya, LL[:)] Amen! I love that verse, Liveloved! Here is another one: For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings Hosea 6:6 In this verse, the Lord connects mercy with the knowledge of God! All through out the Bible one sees a prevailing theme of mercy. He does not exclude judgement. He speaks much of judgement but there is another verse that says something like mercy triumphs over judgement! Praise God! The most important task we have is to reveal Jesus to others! I want others to see the Jesus in me; to be drawn to the Jesus in me so that then I can point them to Jesus Christ of Nazareth as depicted in the gospels and how He ministered to the sinners. That does not mean we ignore sin in others, especially persistent sin. But God knows so much better than I do how do deal with that person. The best thing I can do for that person is to pray that God set them free. He knows so much better than I do how to do that. He knows how to put the pressure on that person in the perfect way of Heavenly Father. Not too long ago I prayed for someone who has been in persistent sin against me. I prayed something like "God, show them severe mercy". Well, you know what happened? He showed me severe mercy. He had to. He had to clean up me before He could answer my prayer. Now, that person I prayed for is beginning to reap frightening, disastrous consequences for their sin. Pray for that person. God knows so much better how to deal with them!

deliveredarling -> RE: Who will stand? (5/1/2008 8:08:00 PM)
I said that WE can not save them and i meant that. We do not have the POWER to save anyone. It is only by and through Jesus that one can be saved. Now, encouraging others in the correction and reproof of the Lord is commanded to us: Galatians 6:1 Brethren, even if a man is caught in any tresspass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness:each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted. LL, we saw this exact example with Jesus and the adulterous woman[;)] Cherished, why are you wearing your feelings on your sleeve? You are very defensive and I ask why? No one hear has criticized or demeaned you or your ministry. I think what I hear on this thread is a ton of encouragement for your ministry along with the wisdom of pitfalls others have encountered. Sharing the ups and downs of the ministry. Is that not why we come here? to share and bounce things off of our brothers and sisters in Christ? There is no attack on you here and I want to encourage you in this ministry. There are dangers and things to be on the alert for, that's all. No harm intended.

pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/1/2008 8:21:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deliveredarling I said that WE can not save them and i meant that. We do not have the POWER to save anyone. It is only by and through Jesus that one can be saved. Now, encouraging others in the correction and reproof of the Lord is commanded to us: Galatians 6:1 Brethren, even if a man is caught in any tresspass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness:each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted. LL, we saw this exact example with Jesus and the adulterous woman[;)] I understand what you are saying... what you mean, however we can, through the power of Christ... I'm sure that's what we both mean, just saying it differently. I pointed out this verse (James 5: 19-20 says, "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.") simply because it is evidence that we can do it through Christ and that we will have eternal rewards. quote: ORIGINAL: deliveredarling Cherished, why are you wearing your feelings on your sleeve? You are very defensive and I ask why? No one hear has criticized or demeaned you or your ministry. I think what I hear on this thread is a ton of encouragement for your ministry along with the wisdom of pitfalls others have encountered. Sharing the ups and downs of the ministry. Is that not why we come here? to share and bounce things off of our brothers and sisters in Christ? There is no attack on you here and I want to encourage you in this ministry. There are dangers and things to be on the alert for, that's all. No harm intended. Yes... amen. No-one is putting anyone down. We have all encouraged everyone in the work of the ministry. As I said before... opinions are opinions. Love to all... Pastor Debi [;)]

CherishedbyGod -> RE: Who will stand? (5/1/2008 8:54:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pstrdebi Yes... amen. No-one is putting anyone down. We have all encouraged everyone in the work of the ministry. As I said before... opinions are opinions. Love to all... Pastor Debi [;)] No...that is not true! People that make blanket statements and misrepresent others in the work of the ministry are not encouraging. They are cutting the servants of God down and ruining reputations. It was not an opinion, Debi! It was a blanket statement addressed in response to one of my replies and it misrepresented many servants of God..Not just me. It was not encouraging...It was a lie...for some of us who did not fit into the categoryl that he posted about...

ta_mosquito -> RE: Who will stand? (5/1/2008 10:34:01 PM)
MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE We're getting too close to personal attacks and unwelcome counsel/judgment on BOTH sides of this argument. I have deleted a few posts that were over the line. Please quit judging (or discerning, or whatever) the motives of the other posters. Telling people they're bitter or vengeful, that people obviously don't know how to minister to the hurting, etc. - these are examples of how NOT to post. Please tone down the personal offenses. If you feel you cannot read or post without being offended, then please quit posting or reading in this thread. Thank you! Tricia Forums Moderator Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat. Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns. Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.

zamdad -> RE: Who will stand? (5/2/2008 12:19:39 AM)
quote: Zamdad, No one has said that except for you. I am responding to Debi's post to me (post #33). If you will read her post, you might better understand my response. We can seek to understand one another or we can seek to misunderstand. I'm seeking to understand. LL My comment was more of a general comment about some of the phariseeical responses this thread has brought about. It happens a lot in these threads. Sorry, it was not aimed at you. Cherished, It seems that some of the posts were deleted. You posted one that I read prior to the deletion that I really wanted to respond to. You commented on the conditions of the suicidal woman in the jail being thrown into a cold, blank cell. There are a lot of things in corrections that occur that many people don't understand. When an inmate is threatening to harm self or others, jails/prisons have no other options but to place the inmate in an isolated, bare room to eliminate the risk of further self harm. I have no idea how you were gathering the information you have about the woman in question, but if she was telling you her side, it's only one side of the story. And, the staff at the facility are not going to tell you much more because medical issues are involved and they are not allowed to tell you anything. IN all the years I worked in the corrections system, it has been very few offenders who have stated from the outset that they were responsible for their situation. The overwhelming majority of inmates are there, according to them, because of someone else. The overwhelming majority say they are innocent and a great majority of them actually believe they're innocent. Another sad fact of our "progressive" society is that our jails/prisons now hold more mentally ill people because we no longer house them in mental institutions. OUr jails/prisons are not equipped to meet the growing demand being placed on them by patients with critical mental health needs. Yet, if they commit crimes, the law says they are to be removed from the community. Since we no longer remove people from the community for being unable to care for themselves and presenting a danger to the community, what alternative do we have? Lastly, the following quote taken from this thread sum it up pretty well: quote: IT IS NOT ABOUT US, it is ABOUT HIM.

CherishedbyGod -> RE: Who will stand? (5/2/2008 1:05:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zamdad Lastly, the following quote taken from this thread sum it up pretty well: quote: IT IS NOT ABOUT US, it is ABOUT HIM. Sigh, ....[sm=icon_smile_faint.gif]

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