RE: Who will stand? (Full Version)

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Calea37 -> RE: Who will stand? (5/2/2008 8:15:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pstrdebi

My husband and I are pastors in So. Oregon. We were called here 2 years ago and have found that this area is such a hard hit area for drugs, alcohol, etc... however, we have observed even more over the past few years how rampant "complacency" is in the church today. Is it just us... or are there others out there who are appalled by the defilement of the church today? User friendly churches who preach that everyone is "ok" without preaching the bold truths of the gospel... lesbians and gays preaching from the pulpit... and much more! Where are our Billy Grahams of today? Who will hold the leaders of the churches across America accountable? (yes, I know God will... however, we are called also to hold one-another accountable) Isn't it about time for the body of Christ to rise up and take a stand for truth? Jesus must weep at the condition of the church today. I would admonish the leaders today to re-read the letters to the churches in Revelations and ask yourselves without bias, which church are you?
Gods Blessings...


Unfortunately as the church becomes more and more deceived, fewer people are going to be willing to take a stand against sin, for fear of being accused of not loving people. Something important to remember is that although Jesus ate with the sinners He never condoned sinful behavior. That is where I see the most twisting; people just think they should accept sin and not try to get rid of it. I don't mean getting rid of people, I mean getting rid of the sin in our lives and always being aware of our actions; repenting when we do sin and not choosing to live in it. Jesus spoke the truth in love, which is what we are supposed to do. We are not loving people or doing them any favors by not acknowledging it for what it is. One of the worst things I see in the churches today are people not acknowledging sin as sin anymore. The more this happens the harder it is going to be to speak the truth and the more divided we become...which is so sad.

Jesus is perfect and it must have been the most awesome thing to be standing face to face with Him...I'm willing to bet that those He confronted about their sin were so aware of His love for them that it was easier to swallow; made it easier to hear. It would seem to me that just looking into His eyes I would feel and know His unconditional love.... That is something most of us (imo) are lacking when we talk to people and they feel condemned and judged. They don't feel as though it is coming from love and then they become defensive.

I just pray that anytime I do feel called to take a stand that it will be Spirit led and not me led! That people would know that it is because of God's love that He desires the best life for us. I thank God that He gave us His Word and His Holy Spirit to guide us so that we aren't left to our own opinions and interpretations. I pray to be able to see the Truth everytime I open my Bible so that I never misrepresent or misunderstand the Word of God.

I personally should pray this everyday: Lord, give me Your spirit of love in all things. Help me to love people the way that You love them. Amen.



Liveloved -> RE: Who will stand? (5/2/2008 10:49:53 AM)

quote:

We can not pick and choose the parts of Jesus that we want, the same as we can not pick and choose the parts of the bible we want. It is all a package deal. That would be the same thinking as those who only want to believe there is a heaven and deny there is a hell.


Debi,

I agree. We cannot pick and choose. Jesus is love and He is our just judge. Absolutely! But believing ALL (not picking and choosing) and having a very different understanding of Jesus and His message and how He lives it out is where we are.

And, yes, I like the verse from I Cor that you used re: self judgment. That is one of the problems I addressed in my original response. The church speaks judgment to others (those who struggle with sins that they don't struggle with such as homosexuality or alcoholism) yet don't seem to SEE their own pride, gossip, pride, temper, pride, hatred, pride, envy, pride, jealousy, pride, strife, and things like these. I emphasize pride because I see this as THE biggest sin we all struggle with. If the church would take Jesus seriously (to heart) and live repentantly, people would be more willing to hear. But since we 'pretend' to be well and healthy, and tells others of their sin, do they listen? (I'm not saying this of you---I don't know you. But I am speaking of the church in general and what I have witnessed.)

Is homosexuality a sin? The scripture is clear. YES. Is envy a sin? The scripture is clear. ENVY put Jesus on the cross. God's word speaks to that over and over again. Yet, do we see good church men dealing with their envy? No, usually we see the good church men speaking of other people's sins such as sexual sins or alcohol use, etc.

I do not preach or teach an I'm OK, you're OK gospel. That is no gospel at all. We are NOT OK. And it is time for the church to arise and believe the gospel for themselves and speak to THEIR need for Jesus. When I share with my unsaved friends and they see a heart that is tender towards Jesus and all He says and my desire to please Him but also my failure to please Him because I am sinful and do sin and hear me speak of the forgiveness He holds for me and how He loves me and has done ALL for me, a sinner, they can hear and see Jesus, the loving judge, that I know and worship.

Debi, my husband and I have ministered for many years. We do not have 'degrees' in theology. My husband is a fulltime professional (veterinarian) who works about a seventy hour work week. Yet he leads Bible studies, taught sunday school and led a home fellowship because of His love for Jesus and desire to see others know Him. I, too, have a graduate degree and have spent my life teaching women's Bible studies and encouraging women to love Jesus.

Our home has been a place of gathering around the word of God for seventeen years now. We receive no paycheck. And when someone does give us a monetary gift in thanks, we pass it on to someone in need. We feel privileged to speak life and encourage the life of Jesus in others.

We want to raise up a church that lives honestly, repentantly and goes to the lost world in love with the message that is real---I am a sinner and Jesus has given His life for me, for my sin, so that I can live. We are so thankful that Jesus became sin for us so that we can be the very righteousness of God! Wow!

It's an awesome message and we are teaching it. I know you are as well. Bless you[:)], LL



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Who will stand? (5/2/2008 12:44:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zamdad

All too often we aren't willing to take the effort to really get to know those we want to minister to. when you get down to it, our desire is to fill their head with knowledge and send them on their way. We don't stick around long enough to help that head knowledge work its way down to the heart.



Who are you speaking of here? Would you elaborate, please, and tell us who you are referring to?

This is not to attack you, I would just like you to clarify....

Taking a stand for Jesus is also being Jesus to people and, from what I have seen on this thread most of God's beloved children that have posted on this thread would not fall into the above category....

Thanks



zamdad -> RE: Who will stand? (5/2/2008 1:53:40 PM)

quote:

Who are you speaking of here? Would you elaborate, please, and tell us who you are referring to?


The we I refer to is most of us, the church. Not specifically you, me or some particular individual. I write this way as a means not to attack or single out any person, but to get others to consider this and, possibly, see themselves in the equation.

My perspective on this is different than most as a result of the five years I spent working directly with sex offenders. I spent time with men and women in an outpatient treatment setting exploring the deepest, darkes thoughts that lead people into sin, identifying that thinking and working directly with them to correct that thinking to avoid repeating the past. In addition to participating in treatment with them, I monitored their conduct in the community and got to know their friends, families, employers, co-workers, etc. I got to see deep beneath the mask and see some truly repent in that their thinking changed and their fruits revealed a new creation.

IN the church, we are driven by the larger, popular culture. We don't get to know each other's deepest, darkest thoughts. We're quick to dismiss things we see or hear that indicate a dark part of humanity as something they really don't mean. Getting to know others as intimately as Christ knows us takes a lot of hard, painful work. Far too many in the church are not willing to go there; to put the effort into and invest themselves in another person. All too often we hear the story of a hurting person and take in the information they give us and take it face value. There are many more parts to the story that get left out and we often don't want to know those other parts as it may change our attitude toward the person we want to minister to. Instead of getting to know our neighbor and loving him/her anyway, we operate on the worlds level and scrape only the surface. We rarely get to the root of the probelm, expose the sin and kill the sin.

If you want a better understanding of where I am coming from, check out my blog in blog towne on this site. I have written about much of my experience.



pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/2/2008 2:52:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zamdad

IN all the years I worked in the corrections system, it has been very few offenders who have stated from the outset that they were responsible for their situation. The overwhelming majority of inmates are there, according to them, because of someone else. The overwhelming majority say they are innocent and a great majority of them actually believe they're innocent.


This is a sad fact. My husband worked with juvenile offenders in Iowa and in Colorado for over 15 years... and of course, they "didn't do anything wrong." And for the past 2 1/2 years, aside from pastoring a church, we have been working with drug addicts and alcoholics... or other counseling needs. and, naturallly... their problems (incarcerations, children being taken by CPS, etc.) are all caused by someone else. How crazy to think that it could be because of their drug or alcohol use! [&:]

When we counsel with these folks, they WILL NOT release their own will or their denial until you help them to "own their own stuff" as I usually tell them. (that is, their sin.) Unless they come to terms with themselves... the sin that they are entangled in... they can't go anywhere.

We have seen family after family be utterly destroyed... all the while, there is some good hearted person or family member who is continuing to enable them. Enabeling the person can come in many forms, but the most damageing is when they do not hold the person accountable by getting them to "own their own stuff" or admit their sin. What isn't understood is that in doing this, the person actually experiences freedom and can move forward. Enabelers will also buy into the person's con games. They will tell the enabeler, "Hallelujah, I'm healed"... get what they want from the person and go right back to the life style they want... usually because they aren't ready to stop getting high. The biggest pull for the drug addict is the money. Often times it is not just the addiction, but the addiction to money as well. Some of the folks we counsel make $1000 to $5000 or more in a DAY! And we turn around and tell them to get a regular job?

The person who is doing the enabeling is called a co-dependent. (I'm only describing because some who read this may not be familiar) A good description of a co-dependent is someone who could possibly come from an abusive background as a child... or possibly neglected as a child... molested... or they could have felt unloved in their childhood. As an adult... they seek the love and attention they wanted (and also wanted to give back) and lacked as a child. Sometimes they will marry people just like their parents... sometimes they are abusive, physically or mentally. If they divorce (many don't because they feel trapped or feel that someday THEY will be able to change them) they will 9 times out of 10 find another person just like the one they left. The co-dependent person is still not receiving the REAL love and attention the need.... so they try to "fix" everyone else by giving out love either in the wrong way or to the wrong people. They try to compensate for the lack in their life by giving what they desire to the wrong individuals.

One of the biggest ways that we can be co-dependent is by not holding the person responsible for their actions (for their sin). (I can say all of this, because there was a time in my life when I was a co-dependent!) We feel that if we hold them responsible for their actions it will turn them against us and against God. That they will be mad and leave and never return. When in reality, if we hold them responsible, it causes them to grow up and stand on their own two feet. It causes the beginning of the healing proccess.

The only problem is... there is a huge majority of people who are not ready to change... will recognize another person as a co-dependent, and use them. This is just honest truth... as much as it hurts.

I hope this helps someone. My husband and I have a lot of info on co-dependancy, etc.... if anyone would like it, just email me.

There is a verse that I have always refered to... this is meant for those who do not want to turn from
their sin... 2 Timothy 2:25-26 "...in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will."

God bless...
Pastor Debi



SonInMe1 -> RE: Who will stand? (5/2/2008 7:12:46 PM)

When you redefine sin then...its always someone else's fault.

No sin. No responsibility.



pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/2/2008 8:26:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

When you redefine sin then...its always someone else's fault.

No sin. No responsibility.


That is how many think. And not just in the drug or criminal world. I have known a lot of 'Christians' trapped by that same mentality.

In another thread I spoke of a meth-addicted woman we were trying to help. To this day, she still blames her mother-in-law for all her problems, when in reality her drug problem, her choice to do drugs, began as a young woman 15 years prior to ever meeting her now mother-in-law. [sm=hammerhead.gif]

Blessings...
Pastor Debi



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Who will stand? (5/2/2008 9:21:17 PM)

I am wondering...

Where is Jesus Christ of Nazareth in the last few posts?

I see alot of psychology, but very little posting about the One I love.

One powerful encounter with Him can send the most hard-core sinner to their knees.

It is sad that the church these days stresses so little about the importance of powerful, life-changing encounters with Christ. It was when Peter saw the miracle of the fishes, wrought through Jesus, that he fell on his knees and said to the Lord "Depart from me for I am a sinful man". It was when the Roman Centurion saw what happened at the cross that he exclaimed "surely this was the Son of God".

People were changed through encounters with Jesus not through definitions of co-dependency.

I think of Charles Finney. He was so full of the Holy Spirit that when he walked into a sewing factory, not a word about sin needed to be said...people fell to their knees and repented.

We have subsituted and adopted the world's ways of relating to "sinners" and then we wonder why so many go back out from the jails and prisons only to cause destruction again by their sin.

When will the Church wake up? For the time has come for us to stop pointing the finger at everyone else and allow the Spirit of God to search our hearts, humble us, bring us to our knees and then, and only then will we be vessels fit to bring others to the Christ we love.

Yes, who will stand for the Lord Jesus Christ and get their eyes off of themselves and onto the Lord Jesus Christ?



pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 12:32:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod

I am wondering...

Where is Jesus Christ of Nazareth in the last few posts?


Cherished...
Jesus has been in ALL the posts... we have been talking about sin and taking a stand against it. I'm thinking you may have missed that part... or are mearly overlooking what everyone is trying to convey.

quote:


I see alot of psychology, but very little posting about the One I love.


You got upset with zamdad when he responded to you about a post you made to me. I was mearly replying to what zamdad had to say about people in the corrections institutions.

And now I am taking offense at the fact that you continue to imply that you are the only one here who loves Jesus or loves people for that matter.

quote:


One powerful encounter with Him can send the most hard-core sinner to their knees.

It is sad that the church these days stresses so little about the importance of powerful, life-changing encounters with Christ. It was when Peter saw the miracle of the fishes, wrought through Jesus, that he fell on his knees and said to the Lord "Depart from me for I am a sinful man". It was when the Roman Centurion saw what happened at the cross that he exclaimed "surely this was the Son of God".


NO-ONE has said this doesn't happen... again, you are missing the point of the topic.

quote:


People were changed through encounters with Jesus not through definitions of co-dependency.


I thought that I was giving out helpful information to whoever may read it... not everyone has had involement with this type of ministry... and could find it helpful.

I am trying to say this in a kind way... you talk about 'people being changed through encounters with Jesus'... Have you considered this? Because I still see no change in your putting others down and pointing out what you do right.

quote:


I think of Charles Finney. He was so full of the Holy Spirit that when he walked into a sewing factory, not a word about sin needed to be said...people fell to their knees and repented.

We have subsituted and adopted the world's ways of relating to "sinners" and then we wonder why so many go back out from the jails and prisons only to cause destruction again by their sin.


Let me ask you. When was the last time folks were slain in the Spirit when you walked by? You talk as if we are beating these folks over the heads with our bibles. You cannot minister to all people the same way.

quote:


When will the Church wake up? For the time has come for us to stop pointing the finger at everyone else and allow the Spirit of God to search our hearts, humble us, bring us to our knees and then, and only then will we be vessels fit to bring others to the Christ we love.

Yes, who will stand for the Lord Jesus Christ and get their eyes off of themselves and onto the Lord Jesus Christ?


Yes... please stop pointing your finger at everybody else. We work hard in our ministry's and have poured ourselves out 12-14 hours a day, every day. We love Christ and love people... and I am growing weary of folks who continualy focus on themselves and what they do and how they do it better than everyone else.

To everyone...
Please forgive me for my response. [:(]

God bless you...
Pastor Debi



zamdad -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 12:54:39 AM)

Cherished,

A couple of posts back the mods put out an admonishment to stop the personal atacks. I bit my cyber tongue last night after your "sigh...again" post and I have decided to take some time before responding to your most recent post. I don't want this to get into mudslinging. Myself and others are trying to view this through the eyes of Christ and present Him as He works through us. But we keep getting from you that we're all wrong and you are right.

Not everyone has the same type of conversion that Saul/Paul had on the road to Tarsus. Most people are changed when they meet Christ, but they do not throw out the old self. We humans have this tendency to go back to what we know. We find comfort in the familiar. Even if we know we aren't going to like the results of what we're about to do, we know what to expect and there is comfort in the familiar. When we come to Christ, we have to die to self every day. Until we learn how to kill the sin, that daily death is often very painful.

Many of the men and women I have worked with through the years claim to be Christian. They have many supporters in their churches who believe they are Chrisitan. One guy in particular, I'll call him Joe, was convicted of molesting his girlfriends daughters. JOe was raised in the church. He knows his Bible well. He has taught Sunday school and served as an usher at his church even after his conviction. Yet, while he was attending church and allowing everyone to believe that he was a born again Christian, he was cohabitating with his girlfriend (who happened to be the wife of another man) and he kept a string of girlfriends for sexual relationships. Nearly all of these women allowed Joe access to their children and grandchildren. When all of these women found out about one another and came to me, each of them said that they could not see Joe being a convicted child molester. He was simply too nice of a guy.

During the course of treatment, Joe was able to articulate the lessons he learned and even confront the deviant thinking of other members of the group. But, he was not willing to change his lifestyle. As Isaid earlier, he had been raised in the church. His parents took him to church every Sunday and taught him scripture. Yet, his dad was molesting the girls in the family and all the kids were sexual with one another. He grew up in an environment where this was "normal." While he could articulate values that lined up with scripture, he could not live them out because doing so meant he would have to give up something he loved more than Christ.

I guess that's the thing here. Many of the people I've worked with and that others minister to live for something. They have a love for something, whether it's sex, drugs, gambling, any type of addiction, that is so strong, they see Christ as an obstacle to that thing that brings euphoria.

Just because someone says they believe in Christ doesnot make them a new creation. Remember, Satan believes in Christ too.



deliveredarling -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 6:50:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:


I guess that's the thing here. Many of the people I've worked with and that others minister to live for something. They have a love for something, whether it's sex, drugs, gambling, any type of addiction, that is so strong, they see Christ as an obstacle to that thing that brings euphoria.


I expressed this same sentiment on another thread using myself as the example. This is the crux of our nature. We love xyz more than we love Christ. Dare I say we all have areas in our life that this applies? If we were all absolutely perfect, then why would there be a journey? The point of standing up is to glorify Christ. When He allows us to overcome xyz in our life, we stand up and praise God. We then can stand up and say, "This is what God did for me, you are eligble too. Let me walk with you through this." If they too desire to have what we have, they will walk side by side, if not, they will reject it and you. Not at all meaning that they don't desire it, they just don't desire it enough right now. There are areas in my life that this applies too. If we are ever changing and ever growing in the Lord, then we experience this. It is Him bringing to the forefront of our minds, our own sin that we must deal with before we can help another in that area. The head knowledge and the heart knowledge meet right here. We can have all the knowledge in the world and it avails us nothing. When He makes the connection in us, it avails much. Things become clearer and understanding has taken place and we begin to walk it out in our lives. We have stopped being mere hearers only and begin being doers also.
Standing up against sin, is not supposed to be finger pointing. How do we stand by and let it corrupt our churches, youth groups, Bible studies? Can we really grow and learn sitting underneath a teacher or minister we know who is in a state of continuous sin. Unwilling to even acknowledge it, much less repent? I personally can't. I've seen it happen and my skin crawls. Yet do I not bear a certain amount of responsibility in confronting my brother or sister with this sin? Do they not bear the same burden of responsibility for me? If we are not encouraging ach other in this manner, are we really standing up for anything or just what we think is right or wrong. If we stand for it we must be willing to apply it to ourselves as well. "Rules" don't just apply for everyone else.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 7:45:36 AM)

God moves in many ways. The still small voice. The big miricle. Through others. I am sure a hundred more.

Jesus told Thomas it was greater to have faith and not to see the evidence for that faith. Its not always the big thing that catches our attention and nor should it always be that.

A mature christian knows when they sin. Heck even an immature one does. With the Holy Spirit, you don't have a choice to reject what is sin.

Not everyone is Holy Spirit indwellt however and spelling out clear definitions of what is acceptable and what is not is needed for them. A drug addict in their addiction needs strict rules to live by. They do not have God leading them through Holy Spirit correction. A christian in the position to help these people must first establish the rules and to guide them to personal responsibility.

When they can consistantly empty the lint screen in the dryer before using it, they will begin to understand what responsibility is. A person in this position has given up all responsibility in favor of the carnal...their pleasure over everything. You can't reason with someone who is addicted. You have to be firm...or they will abuse you.

I'm just a red necked blue collar idiot and I know that. It doesn't take a college degree to recognise these things. It just takes...been there done that.



Liveloved -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 9:02:49 AM)

quote:

I guess that's the thing here. Many of the people I've worked with and that others minister to live for something. They have a love for something, whether it's sex, drugs, gambling, any type of addiction, that is so strong, they see Christ as an obstacle to that thing that brings euphoria.


I like Delivered's response to this thought. YEAH, Delivered! We (the church) need to turn this on ourselves, searching OUR hearts, and seeing what WE are living for. Our sin just tends to be more subtle, more deceiving, more easily disguised but no less sinful. And pride is the most deceitful of all.

So as we deal with our own sin, I believe we'll have the powerful gospel message to bring to others because we're living the reality. I see this as a huge part of the failure of the church. We are good hearers and repeaters but not so good in the doing.

We are the ones who will be held accountable.



pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 10:35:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

Standing up against sin, is not supposed to be finger pointing. How do we stand by and let it corrupt our churches, youth groups, Bible studies? Can we really grow and learn sitting underneath a teacher or minister we know who is in a state of continuous sin. Unwilling to even acknowledge it, much less repent? I personally can't. I've seen it happen and my skin crawls. Yet do I not bear a certain amount of responsibility in confronting my brother or sister with this sin? Do they not bear the same burden of responsibility for me? If we are not encouraging ach other in this manner, are we really standing up for anything or just what we think is right or wrong. If we stand for it we must be willing to apply it to ourselves as well. "Rules" don't just apply for everyone else.


Thank you Delivered... this, of course, is what the original post wast about...

quote:

ORIGINAL: pstrdebi

...however, we have observed even more over the past few years how rampant "complacency" is in the church today. Is it just us... or are there others out there who are appalled by the defilement of the church today? User friendly churches who preach that everyone is "ok" without preaching the bold truths of the gospel... lesbians and gays preaching from the pulpit... and much more! ....


Everything that we have talked about basicaly applies... because it all in some form or fashion goes back to our leadership.

When Jesus taught, shepherded, instructed, etc... He led by example. Folks could look at Him and His ministry and say... "This is how it should be done," and follow suite. He loved, yes. But as I said before, the first words of His ministry were "Repent! For the Kingdom of God is at hand."

Folks cannot learn to stand for the Words of God when He spoke that "...homosexuals... will not see the Kingdom of Heaven," if their pastor is gay and preaching "I'm ok, your ok." And to be fully honest, if this was the case, I pray that someone in that congregation would be bold enough to confront him with his blatant sin!

I think I mentioned this before (somewhere)... the pastor of the largest church in America stood up at a pastors conference and said that he would "never speak of the cross or the blood because it offends people." WHAT? I believe Christ was pretty offended when he spoke those words. God holds pastors to a higher standard because they lead their flock. Woe to those pastors who tweek the Word of God. It is pretty plain... at the end of the book it tells us not to add to, or take away from anything in the Bible.

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

Do they not bear the same burden of responsibility for me?


There is a song by Third Day called Wire (on the cd Wire) that I think reflects this. He's singing about walking on a tight-rope.. and part of it goes, "...but if I trip, will they catch me, or watch me fall..."

Often times the church just watches them fall. They don't confront the person's sin because they either, "don't want to get involved," "It's not my business," (complacentcy) "I knew they weren't really a Christian," (pride) "They'll come around," "they're just going through a 'season'," (busyness, apathy)... and whatever else they can come up with.

I haven't always been a pastor... I have been attending church for a very long time, and have seen churches literally ripped apart because of bad leadership. And as well, have seen them divided and destroyed by those "holier than thou" women who are given to gossip and the like. As a woman of the church, I made a choice long ago not to take part in that. There would be women sitting in a Bible Study backstabbing the speaker, talking about Sister So-and-So's rotten husband, etc., etc. all the while their secret sin is being gossiped about at another table. Aaarrrggghhhh!!!!

We must confront sin, or sin will continue to grow like a fungus.

Blessings...
Pastor Debi



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 12:34:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

quote:

I guess that's the thing here. Many of the people I've worked with and that others minister to live for something. They have a love for something, whether it's sex, drugs, gambling, any type of addiction, that is so strong, they see Christ as an obstacle to that thing that brings euphoria.


I like Delivered's response to this thought. YEAH, Delivered! We (the church) need to turn this on ourselves, searching OUR hearts, and seeing what WE are living for. Our sin just tends to be more subtle, more deceiving, more easily disguised but no less sinful. And pride is the most deceitful of all.

So as we deal with our own sin, I believe we'll have the powerful gospel message to bring to others because we're living the reality. I see this as a huge part of the failure of the church. We are good hearers and repeaters but not so good in the doing.

We are the ones who will be held accountable.



Amen....



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 12:36:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pstrdebi

In another thread I spoke of a meth-addicted woman we were trying to help. To this day, she still blames her mother-in-law for all her problems, when in reality her drug problem, her choice to do drugs, began as a young woman 15 years prior to ever meeting her now mother-in-law. [sm=hammerhead.gif]



There, but for the grace of God, go I.



pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 12:48:11 PM)

I sense confussion.... [&o]



Liveloved -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 3:44:31 PM)

quote:

We must confront sin, or sin will continue to grow like a fungus.


Amen, Debi. And as Peter said so long ago, "It is time for judgment to begin with the household of God. . ." If those teaching and leading in the church would begin here and take seriously the words of Christ, and confess and deal with their own sin, I think we would have the power in the church that is presently lacking.

I know this is your desire. It is mine as well. We stand together. And it is here that we can begin to impact the lost world. [:)]



SonInMe1 -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 4:04:29 PM)

quote:

Our sin just tends to be more subtle, more deceiving, more easily disguised but no less sinful. And pride is the most deceitful of all.


Yer preachin' to the choir here brother/sister.

quote:

if their pastor is gay and preaching "I'm ok, your ok."


A lot of things get blown out of proportion in our lives esspecially about those things we are very passionate about.....I am wondering....what is the percentage of christians who are preahed to by a homosexual? I would think that would be much less than .1%

I don't think we can put the blame on sinful pastors. Afterall, they ALL sin. Pastors tend to be....human too. The blame isn't corporate, even if it is. Its individual and Who we are listening to, spiritually.

quote:

pastor of the largest church in America


Ok. This doesn't mean pastors or pastors of big churches or big churches are the problem. It still boils down to the individual and their walk with God.

quote:

Often times the church just watches them fall. They don't confront the person's sin because they either, "don't want to get involved," "It's not my business," (complacentcy) "I knew they weren't really a Christian," (pride) "They'll come around," "they're just going through a 'season'," (busyness, apathy)... and whatever else they can come up with.


Is there a degree here? Should we confront every sin we see? I agree with you we must hold each other accountable but the key to this isn't being more bold in confrontation. Its developing more intimate relationships with people at church...and even outside of church, so we might be in a better position to care and to offer true loving correction.

quote:

women who are given to gossip


Men too.



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 4:22:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

quote:

women who are given to gossip


Men too.


Someone told me the other day that men are worse[;)]



deliveredarling -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 4:39:44 PM)

I've got to make mention here why pastors aren't confronted. Let's say we have a very "respected" pastor in our community. He's been around "forever" and everybody knows him. Are we going to jump on the bandwagon that we heard this pastor is doing such and such or do we sit back, never questioning, because after all, he is a preacher or priest.....
Also, those Christians who attend church faithfully every Sunday, like good little boys and girls and never bother to open their Bibles to see if what He is preaching is true.....Why would they, he's always led them down the right path....Oooops, they didn't hear the Truth, but then again, how would they know the difference? This is where we take a stand. As Christians, defending the Word of God, with our mouth and by our actions. If none of us ever question, don't you think when we stand before Him, He's going to ask us why we didn't say anything? Not only do we have to be responsible for our own growth in Him, we have a responsibility to others. This is loving your neighbor as yourself. I don't want to be deceived and I certainly don't want others deceived either.
I think sometimes we walk blindly, taking for granted that those in the pulpit are trustworthy men and women of God, just because their title is preacher. The Bible says that the time will come when sound doctrine will not be endured..... It is sad to say that we have to listen carefully to who is preaching what, however we have been warned. Pastor Debi, by no means is this directed at you. I am speaking in a huge generalization. I am hoping that because you mentioned the largest church in America, that you share this concern as well.



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 4:53:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zamdad

Cherished,

A couple of posts back the mods put out an admonishment to stop the personal atacks. I bit my cyber tongue last night after your "sigh...again" post and I have decided to take some time before responding to your most recent post. I don't want this to get into mudslinging. Myself and others are trying to view this through the eyes of Christ and present Him as He works through us. But we keep getting from you that we're all wrong and you are right.



Hello??? Anybody home[8D]

If you cannot quit attacking me can you please put a block on my name? Please stop attacking me, Zamdad! I never said you are all wrong and I am right.

It really is OK to disagree!

I know you work in corrections but please stop trying to correct me!



pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 6:48:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

quote:

if their pastor is gay and preaching "I'm ok, your ok."


A lot of things get blown out of proportion in our lives esspecially about those things we are very passionate about.....I am wondering....what is the percentage of christians who are preahed to by a homosexual? I would think that would be much less than .1%

I don't think we can put the blame on sinful pastors. Afterall, they ALL sin. Pastors tend to be....human too. The blame isn't corporate, even if it is. Its individual and Who we are listening to, spiritually.


What does it matter! If the guy is gay or the woman is a lesbian... they have no right preaching from the pulpit when they are in willful sin! Sin is sin... howver, there is a big difference between willfully sinning and someone who slips up, repents and moves on... whether you agree or not. And I wouldn't bank on that percentage... regardless, how would you feel about a priest ministering to your son who has been charged with molestation charges, yet is still allowed by the (whatever they call themselves), to preach? This is going on all across America, sir... have you not heard?

Look at the early Methodist church... we're not Methodist's, however we have been reading a great book about the early preacher's. They were filled with the Spirit and on great fire for Christ... preaching to thousands and having revivals... and seeing thousands and thousands of people come to Christ. These were some mighty fire and brimstone preachers such as Charles Finney, who were devout and concious of the condition of man's heart. Now... I am NOT attaking the Methodist church... I am making an observation... and you yourself can do the study... but many Methodist churches have changed dramatically, and it was the Methodist church that was currently in the news announcing to the world that they were now allowing gays and lesbians to be ordained in their church! Boy, how satan must have laughed his head off at that one!

Yes... everyone sins... but as I said, pastors are held to a higher standard as they lead their flock!

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

quote:

pastor of the largest church in America


Ok. This doesn't mean pastors or pastors of big churches or big churches are the problem. It still boils down to the individual and their walk with God.


Did I say that? But that preacher is walking on thin ice and in my humble opinion, and could possibly be leading his flock astray. I personally wouldn't take that chance!

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

quote:

Often times the church just watches them fall. They don't confront the person's sin because they either, "don't want to get involved," "It's not my business," (complacentcy) "I knew they weren't really a Christian," (pride) "They'll come around," "they're just going through a 'season'," (busyness, apathy)... and whatever else they can come up with.


Is there a degree here? Should we confront every sin we see? I agree with you we must hold each other accountable but the key to this isn't being more bold in confrontation. Its developing more intimate relationships with people at church...and even outside of church, so we might be in a better position to care and to offer true loving correction.


Does there have to be a degree? We don't, and others shouldn't, treat their congregation as cattle. You take each person on an individual basis... they are not numbers... they are people. Some may need bold confrontation... and some may need just a gentle nudge.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

quote:

women who are given to gossip


Men too.


Pa-lease... you're talking to a woman. Yes men gossip.... but if you want to talk degree's now, I would say: women - 75-80 % ... men - 25-30%! I'm not rying to be mean... any woman who has been the brunt of this can attest to the truthfulness of what I am saying.

Blessings...
Pastor Debi



SonInMe1 -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 7:03:04 PM)

quote:

regardless, how would you feel about a priest ministering to your son who has been charged with molestation charges, yet is still allowed by the (whatever they call themselves), to preach? This is going on all across America, sir... have you not heard?


As I said, these are emotional issues in which we have great passions. I just don't think they are pervasive.

quote:

Methodist's


Well its been a personal opinion of mine for some time that the longer we have a certain doctrine or denomination the more it becomes perverted, i.e. the jewish faith from the Law to the perverted pharesee legalism to the catholic church from the first church to the staid ceremonial church of today.

To be honest I don't care that much for churches, so to speak. A church is a tool we have as christians and like any tool its only as good as the wielder. Like I said before, our walks with God are individual and the responsibility we each have is, ultimately, always personal.

Yes, we have encouragement. We need edification. We need correction.

quote:

Did I say that?


These forums are a place for the exchange of ideas. Often those ideas are repeated and when you talked about big churches, this is what came to my mind. I did not judge you in any manner. It was just the idea that popped into my head stemming from your comment.

You will enjoy this place a lot more if it doesn't become personal.

quote:

But that preacher is walking on thin ice and in my humble opinion, and could possibly be leading his flock astray. I personally wouldn't take that chance!


This may very well be. I expect I know who you are talking about and I would only caution this...watching a few minutes of a sermon on tv does not completely inform you of that church's doctrine and many doctrines are poorly understood today. I am not excusing poor doctrines because you know....

we all have them.

I am just saying even poor doctrines can bear good fruit.

quote:

You take each person on an individual basis... they are not numbers... they are people. Some may need bold confrontation... and some may need just a gentle nudge.


I agree and the best way to find this out is having a personal real relationship with them. Correction and rebuke from a starnger is seldom listened to....even if its from a pastor.

The men gossip thing? At work its...horrible. Its to the point where I seldom speak with anyone at work. Its becoming destructive.



pstrdebi -> RE: Who will stand? (5/3/2008 7:10:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

I've got to make mention here why pastors aren't confronted. Let's say we have a very "respected" pastor in our community. He's been around "forever" and everybody knows him. Are we going to jump on the bandwagon that we heard this pastor is doing such and such or do we sit back, never questioning, because after all, he is a preacher or priest.....
Also, those Christians who attend church faithfully every Sunday, like good little boys and girls and never bother to open their Bibles to see if what He is preaching is true.....Why would they, he's always led them down the right path....Oooops, they didn't hear the Truth, but then again, how would they know the difference? This is where we take a stand. As Christians, defending the Word of God, with our mouth and by our actions. If none of us ever question, don't you think when we stand before Him, He's going to ask us why we didn't say anything? Not only do we have to be responsible for our own growth in Him, we have a responsibility to others. This is loving your neighbor as yourself. I don't want to be deceived and I certainly don't want others deceived either.
I think sometimes we walk blindly, taking for granted that those in the pulpit are trustworthy men and women of God, just because their title is preacher. The Bible says that the time will come when sound doctrine will not be endured..... It is sad to say that we have to listen carefully to who is preaching what, however we have been warned. Pastor Debi, by no means is this directed at you. I am speaking in a huge generalization. I am hoping that because you mentioned the largest church in America, that you share this concern as well.


Amen! Amen! Amen!

quote:



If none of us ever question, don't you think when we stand before Him, He's going to ask us why we didn't say anything?


Absolutely... There are sins of commission and sins of ommission! I would love for you to hear my husbands sermon on the Zadock priesthood and the Eli preisthood... it really speaks to this.

quote:



I think sometimes we walk blindly, taking for granted that those in the pulpit are trustworthy men and women of God, just because their title is preacher.


A title isn't anything, as far as I'm concerned, unless you can stand before God with it. That is why we "run the race"... you can have the title of "church dish-washer"... but you still need to stand before God and He is going to ask you if you faithfully and blamelessly represented the church of Christ.

quote:



Pastor Debi, by no means is this directed at you. I am speaking in a huge generalization. I am hoping that because you mentioned the largest church in America, that you share this concern as well.


I didn't feel that it was (directed at me). I do share this concern... I am in no way going to ask someone to do something that I am not doing myself. As I mentioned in my previous post... "But that preacher is walking on thin ice in my humble opinion, and could possibly be leading his flock astray. I personally wouldn't take that chance!

Thanks for your insight and your heart for Christ... [:D]
God bless you...
Pastor Debi



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