RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Standards? (RE: Miley Cyrus and Others)
View related threads:
(in this forum
| in all forums)
|
Logged in as: Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 12:54:25 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
We didn't mean you and I, necessarily. You drew that conclusion. I meant it as in the Christian community in general, which includes everyone, not you specifically.
You are walking over your own words... I drew nothing, I responded to what you posted...... The above is vague and could be taken a million different ways. Prior to this you said something different… It seems you have changed your mind… That’s fine, but don’t try and say I am doing something..
Again, you said...
Just because the person in question is a name many people recognize doesn't give us license to judge her more than we would judge anyone else (which is supposed to be none).
The above says we are (according to you) to judge none...
John
A claim to which I still hold.
Maybe in this post, but not all of them...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 12:57:49 PM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
The verse insinuates nothing about cleavage in any way. I am not wrong, as you say, though our opinions may differ.
The verse speaks of appearance... So yes, you are wrong since you believe it to be simply about the examples given...
John
I could say the same thing about you, but it means nothing to call one another wrong. The verse speaks about a specific showing off of wealth. I believe you are adding to the words of this verse.
So it must follow that Christian can be immodest with everything other than wealth... That makes no sense...
1 Timothy 2:9
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
What does quote:
modest apparel mean? Simply the value? No... Try and find commentary that says it's simply about wealth...
John
If 1 Timothy 2:9 was the only verse in the Bible, then that would follow. There are other verses which one can use, like not tempting others.
I read the Bible because I believe it to be God's word. I don't think commentaries are God's word.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 12:59:13 PM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
We didn't mean you and I, necessarily. You drew that conclusion. I meant it as in the Christian community in general, which includes everyone, not you specifically.
You are walking over your own words... I drew nothing, I responded to what you posted...... The above is vague and could be taken a million different ways. Prior to this you said something different… It seems you have changed your mind… That’s fine, but don’t try and say I am doing something..
Again, you said...
Just because the person in question is a name many people recognize doesn't give us license to judge her more than we would judge anyone else (which is supposed to be none).
The above says we are (according to you) to judge none...
John
A claim to which I still hold.
Maybe in this post, but not all of them...
John
All of them, since there is a difference between discerning sin and judging people.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 1:00:27 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
That is very biblical. I am cleansed of my sin by the blood of the Christ. If God can forgive me, why not others? Forgiveness, biblically, also means completely forgetting.
Judging someone in righteous manner doesn't negate the ability to forgive... In fact for there to be forgiveness there first had to be judgment, right?
As for completely forgetting... No... Even a forgiven pedophile shouldn't be allowed around kids... There are temporal consequences for your actions at times, though forgiven eternally one must bear the brunt of the action due to the seriousness of the sin...
quote:
If you forgive and forget a sin you've discerned, or judged, how are you not judging the person?
I am not quite sure what you are asking here... If one is judged, forgiven and it's forgotten, what is the problem???
quote:
Or is forgiveness hardly biblical?
We are not debating forgiveness... One can judge and forgive...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 1:01:46 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
The verse insinuates nothing about cleavage in any way. I am not wrong, as you say, though our opinions may differ.
The verse speaks of appearance... So yes, you are wrong since you believe it to be simply about the examples given...
John
I could say the same thing about you, but it means nothing to call one another wrong. The verse speaks about a specific showing off of wealth. I believe you are adding to the words of this verse.
So it must follow that Christian can be immodest with everything other than wealth... That makes no sense...
1 Timothy 2:9
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
What does quote:
modest apparel mean? Simply the value? No... Try and find commentary that says it's simply about wealth...
John
If 1 Timothy 2:9 was the only verse in the Bible, then that would follow. There are other verses which one can use, like not tempting others.
I read the Bible because I believe it to be God's word. I don't think commentaries are God's word.
Well... You pretty much stand alone in regards to the verse...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 1:04:11 PM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
That is very biblical. I am cleansed of my sin by the blood of the Christ. If God can forgive me, why not others? Forgiveness, biblically, also means completely forgetting.
Judging someone in righteous manner doesn't negate the ability to forgive... In fact for there to be forgiveness there first had to be judgment, right?
As for completely forgetting... No... Even a forgiven pedophile shouldn't be allowed around kids... There are temporal consequences for your actions at times, though forgiven eternally one must bear the brunt of the action due to the seriousness of the sin...
quote:
If you forgive and forget a sin you've discerned, or judged, how are you not judging the person?
I am not quite sure what you are asking here... If one is judged, forgiven and it's forgotten, what is the problem???
quote:
Or is forgiveness hardly biblical?
We are not debating forgiveness... One can judge and forgive...
John
One can judge the sin and forgive it. One should not judge the person as a whole. I wouldn't let my kids hang around the pedophile because of what he did, not because of who he is. Men are more than the sum of their actions.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 1:04:29 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
All of them, since there is a difference between discerning sin and judging people.
To discern is to judge... You can believe whatever you want, but the word has a meaning and your view doesn't change it...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 1:07:12 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
That is very biblical. I am cleansed of my sin by the blood of the Christ. If God can forgive me, why not others? Forgiveness, biblically, also means completely forgetting.
Judging someone in righteous manner doesn't negate the ability to forgive... In fact for there to be forgiveness there first had to be judgment, right?
As for completely forgetting... No... Even a forgiven pedophile shouldn't be allowed around kids... There are temporal consequences for your actions at times, though forgiven eternally one must bear the brunt of the action due to the seriousness of the sin...
quote:
If you forgive and forget a sin you've discerned, or judged, how are you not judging the person?
I am not quite sure what you are asking here... If one is judged, forgiven and it's forgotten, what is the problem???
quote:
Or is forgiveness hardly biblical?
We are not debating forgiveness... One can judge and forgive...
John
One can judge the sin and forgive it. One should not judge the person as a whole. I wouldn't let my kids hang around the pedophile because of what he did, not because of who he is. Men are more than the sum of their actions.
No matter how you word it's a judgment of the person... Can't have it both ways...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 1:08:05 PM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
All of them, since there is a difference between discerning sin and judging people.
To discern is to judge... You can believe whatever you want, but the word has a meaning and your view doesn't change it...
John
You don't like the word "discern". Okay. I'll rephrase. I am not inconsistent because my view is that judging sin is different than judging the sinner. Your view, being different than mine, does not make me an inconsistent person.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 1:09:22 PM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
That is very biblical. I am cleansed of my sin by the blood of the Christ. If God can forgive me, why not others? Forgiveness, biblically, also means completely forgetting.
Judging someone in righteous manner doesn't negate the ability to forgive... In fact for there to be forgiveness there first had to be judgment, right?
As for completely forgetting... No... Even a forgiven pedophile shouldn't be allowed around kids... There are temporal consequences for your actions at times, though forgiven eternally one must bear the brunt of the action due to the seriousness of the sin...
quote:
If you forgive and forget a sin you've discerned, or judged, how are you not judging the person?
I am not quite sure what you are asking here... If one is judged, forgiven and it's forgotten, what is the problem???
quote:
Or is forgiveness hardly biblical?
We are not debating forgiveness... One can judge and forgive...
John
One can judge the sin and forgive it. One should not judge the person as a whole. I wouldn't let my kids hang around the pedophile because of what he did, not because of who he is. Men are more than the sum of their actions.
No matter how you word it's a judgment of the person... Can't have it both ways...
John
I am having it only one way. It just happens to be different than your way. Judging a man's action doesn't have to be judging him, unless you want it to be.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 1:14:16 PM
|
|
|
OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1057
Status: offline
|
those scriptures are about a woman's strategy for attaining virtue and respect. it's not so much about clothing as it is about true inner virtue vs looking good on the outside. it addresses a woman's natural inclination to look good as a means for admiration. the scripture is saying that what counts is on the inside, and your display of virtue is not clothing and jewelry but about purity on the inside being acted out by virtuous behavior. the inner virtue and behavior in other words is the adornment you are looking for. it's not a fashion lesson.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 2:09:35 PM
|
|
|
OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1057
Status: offline
|
in vanity fair culture miley was practically wearing a turtle neck. if it were a rembrandt painting, we wouldn't find it shocking, especially if the photo was warmed up and natural not blue and somewhat goth looking.
i don't care for much of mileys fashion wardrobe. but it's gotta be tough living in the entertainment world and deciding what crosses the line and what is decent in clothing. when a person is on the beach, we are not shocked by skin. we might not approve of it all, we might dress differently and we might even avoid being in a place with way too much eye candy. but it shows how context influences what seems normal to us. celebrities are on a fashion beach constantly.
everyone here is distracted by the fabric issues with miley. it's about what's on the inside. those close to here are who she is accountable to. they are the ones that should monitor and confront when needed.
can we and should we critique culture? of course. but we need to remember that as a person, even public figures have limited accountablilty to us. we can well say what we think crosses a line, but we cannot possibly judge a heart, and how we say what we think has potential to bring harm rather than life.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 2:25:30 PM
|
|
|
StephK
Posts: 1968
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
|
She doesn't have to live in that world though. Like everything else it's a choice she and her family made. She's still 15 years old and a minor. When will we say enough of this sexualizing of young girls? Girls today are clueless about this issue. They don't know that it's wrong to take nudie pics of themselves and broadcast it worldwide on the internet. That is the issue that bothers me more than anything. Girls are putting themselves in real danger and heartbreak down the road and this is not about art either.
< Message edited by StephK -- 5/6/2008 2:36:20 PM >
_____________________________
Stephanie
Communism "IS" socialism....
"How do you tell a Socialist:- It's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an Anti-Socialist someone who understands Marx and Lenin" -Ronald Reagan
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 2:30:47 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5246
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
She doesn't have to live in that world though. Like everything else it's a choice she and her family made. She's still 15 years old and a minor. When will we say enough of this sexualizing of young girls? Girls today are clueless about this issue. They don't know that it's wrong to take nudie pics of themselves and broadcast it worldwide on the internet. That is the issue that bothers me more than anything. Girls are putting themselves in real danger and heartbreak down the road and it's not about art either.
If anyone thinks the inoculous photos of the girl were sexualizing or were "stirred" by those photos; I would suggest a long period of time on their knees in prayer to be delivered of lust.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 2:37:34 PM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
in vanity fair culture miley was practically wearing a turtle neck. if it were a rembrandt painting, we wouldn't find it shocking, especially if the photo was warmed up and natural not blue and somewhat goth looking.
i don't care for much of mileys fashion wardrobe. but it's gotta be tough living in the entertainment world and deciding what crosses the line and what is decent in clothing. when a person is on the beach, we are not shocked by skin. we might not approve of it all, we might dress differently and we might even avoid being in a place with way too much eye candy. but it shows how context influences what seems normal to us. celebrities are on a fashion beach constantly.
everyone here is distracted by the fabric issues with miley. it's about what's on the inside. those close to here are who she is accountable to. they are the ones that should monitor and confront when needed.
can we and should we critique culture? of course. but we need to remember that as a person, even public figures have limited accountablilty to us. we can well say what we think crosses a line, but we cannot possibly judge a heart, and how we say what we think has potential to bring harm rather than life.
I'm always glad when people find a diplomatic way to say what I think
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 2:49:07 PM
|
|
|
StephK
Posts: 1968
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
|
I think part of the problem is that she was on American Idol about a month ago and her performance wasn't exactly what her target audience should see, then her pics on Myspace came out on top of the VF photo shoot and parents are saying wait a minute what is going on with this kid. After all we have just been shown Britney's breakdown not too long ago.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Communism "IS" socialism....
"How do you tell a Socialist:- It's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an Anti-Socialist someone who understands Marx and Lenin" -Ronald Reagan
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 3:09:06 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
You don't like the word "discern". Okay. I'll rephrase.
Discern is fine... I just let you know it's just another word for judge...
quote:
I am not inconsistent because my view is that judging sin is different than judging the sinner. Your view, being different than mine, does not make me an inconsistent person.
You say you can judge without judging... When at first you said you we shouldn't judge...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 3:11:54 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Judging a man's action doesn't have to be judging him, unless you want it to be.
I'll let your contradiction stand...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 3:12:29 PM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
You don't like the word "discern". Okay. I'll rephrase.
Discern is fine... I just let you know it's just another word for judge...
quote:
I am not inconsistent because my view is that judging sin is different than judging the sinner. Your view, being different than mine, does not make me an inconsistent person.
You say you can judge without judging... When at first you said you we shouldn't judge...
John
I said you shouldn't judge people. I'm not judging without judging. Do you truly not understand what I mean or are you trying to insult my words?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 3:12:55 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
those scriptures are about a woman's strategy for attaining virtue and respect. it's not so much about clothing as it is about true inner virtue vs looking good on the outside. it addresses a woman's natural inclination to look good as a means for admiration. the scripture is saying that what counts is on the inside, and your display of virtue is not clothing and jewelry but about purity on the inside being acted out by virtuous behavior. the inner virtue and behavior in other words is the adornment you are looking for. it's not a fashion lesson.
Wow...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 3:14:28 PM
|
|
|
OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1057
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
She doesn't have to live in that world though. Like everything else it's a choice she and her family made. She's still 15 years old and a minor. When will we say enough of this sexualizing of young girls? Girls today are clueless about this issue. They don't know that it's wrong to take nudie pics of themselves and broadcast it worldwide on the internet. That is the issue that bothers me more than anything. Girls are putting themselves in real danger and heartbreak down the road and this is not about art either.
i didn't discount critiquing culture.
i don't think christians need to leave the entertainment industry, or southern california, or new york or any other place the "culture beach" exists.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 3:16:16 PM
|
|
|
OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1057
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
those scriptures are about a woman's strategy for attaining virtue and respect. it's not so much about clothing as it is about true inner virtue vs looking good on the outside. it addresses a woman's natural inclination to look good as a means for admiration. the scripture is saying that what counts is on the inside, and your display of virtue is not clothing and jewelry but about purity on the inside being acted out by virtuous behavior. the inner virtue and behavior in other words is the adornment you are looking for. it's not a fashion lesson.
Wow...
John
go back and read the context.
and i'm in no way saying anything goes in clothing. no need to go there. it's just not fashion that those scriptures were speaking to.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 3:21:21 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
If anyone thinks the inoculous photos of the girl were sexualizing or were "stirred" by those photos; I would suggest a long period of time on their knees in prayer to be delivered of lust.
Thanks
RC
Does that include the person in the picture who said they were a mistake? Of course there are the pictures of her pulling down her top and in her underwear... Oh, and the ones where she is playing around with another girl...
With all the elpotation of children going on you'd think people would even consider to error on the side of caution... Nope...
I have to ask... What is being defended here? The idea that it is edifying for a 15 year old girl to have pictures of her partially covered in for all to see? Sorry, these are't tub pictures of a 2 year old...
Given what the bible says about lust and mankinds inherent issues with things of the sexual nature how does one say the picures are, I believe the word is innocuous...
Again what is being defended? It's not the 15 year old girl, that's for sure..
John
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
