RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Standards? (RE: Miley Cyrus and Others)
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/1/2008 10:05:47 PM
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csl7037
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quote:
I had a friend who was a Christian and a soap opera actor. As a matter of fact, he met his christian wife on a soap opera. They were committed Christians who were active in the church. They chose not to make a big deal about their Christianity because they didn't want the grief from "Christians" who would be offended that they had or were working on soap operas. It's really a shame that we get attacked from the inside more than the outside.
Wow. That's ridiculous but I can certainly see why they'd not stick their necks out in the "Christian Community" just to get their heads lopped off.
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/2/2008 1:58:42 AM
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OneOfHisJewels
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Ok, I finally found the father/daughter shot on google, and it's not as bad as I expected. I thought, before I saw it, she was laying stomach down on his lap. To me, it looks more like something like she had a bad day, and he's comforting her or something.
< Message edited by OneOfHisJewels -- 5/2/2008 11:38:36 AM >
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/2/2008 3:04:17 AM
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Annie64
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The only thing I saw about this was on a little black and white TV in the hair salon at Wal-Mart where my daughter was getting her hair done Monday evening. They were showing Entertainment Tonight. I thought at the time that she could easily have been talked into it--to say pressured would imply that she offered resistance, which she may not have done. I have a fifteen-year-old daughter. I think she could easily be talked into doing something she didn't feel comfortable with herself if the adults around her kept telling her it was okay. One poster's experience with following directions on a photo shoot and not realizing how bad it actually was really described very well what I was guessing happened. I also heard that Miley apologized. The photographer did not. The photographer, (or someone involved with the photos--I don't know for sure who it was) said that s/he couldn't see the problem and s/he thought the pictures were beautiful. That made me angry with the photographer! I've read a lot of blame here for the parents, and I don't know if they have any culpability in this or not. Have they said anything?
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/2/2008 10:41:16 AM
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sjd2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
I am having trouble understanding the disconnect here. (BTW, I have seen the pictures.) How many people think that nudity is required before something becomes inappropriate? The majority of advertising uses suggestive photos, situations, dialogue, etc. Although there is no nudity in these ads, they play on a sensual undertone that I find offensive. Does anyone else see the difference in advertising and publications today vs. 20 years ago? I see a huge downhill slide toward a sex defined society. It is very disturbing. 
The photos were not for ads, they were editorial content for Vanity Fair. Although you may not see a distinction in the photo content itself. It does make a difference. The Cyrus' weren't trying to sell a product.
Not everyone sees the photos in the same way that you do. We all have different views on what constitutes sensual material and what doesn't. I honestly don't see the photos as being alluring or immodest. That doesn't mean that you're wrong and I'm right. It just means that we have different tastes in what we see. That's also why it is difficult to make a standard as to what's acceptable and what's not. It's not always what the person is wearing (or not) that makes the difference. Sometimes there's another piece that makes that person alluring.
Yes, it does bother me when I see ads for cars where sex is the biggest component of the sales pitch. However, I also think that if that's the only way that they can sell their cars, that doesn't say much for the quality of the car (or any other product for that matter). However, sex has always been a way to sell products. I don't think that it will change.
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/2/2008 10:56:24 AM
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sjd2008
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John,
I don't want to answer your post line by line. Actaully, you haven't answered some of the questions I posed to you, so, I don't feel that need to answer most of yours.
As I said to Wes, I don't find the photo to be as sensual or alluring as you do. That doesn't make either one of us right or wrong. We just have different tastes. I realize that you will probably accuse me of not understanding or having low standards. That's fine if you want to believe that. There may be some things that I find alluring that you don't.
I am not trying to set myself up as an arbiter of anything. It's your right to see that photo however you want. If you feel that the Cyruses sinned that also your right. However, you don't have the right to say that they nned to do anything to atone for their sins. I find it VERY arrogant when a Christian spells out what another Christian should do to attone. Sorry, that's just wrong. There are people who are Christians who are more afraid of persecution from inside the body than outside. And THAT is a shame. We tend to shoot our wounded to the detriment of the Body. I rpopose to you that more damage is done by Christians who spend their spirtual energy pinting out what other Christins should do than Mlie's photos.
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/2/2008 11:05:02 AM
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lw9
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quote:
sjd2008: The Cyrus' weren't trying to sell a product.
Whether anyone thinks the photos were okay or not, let's at least not kid ourselves about this point. The product *was* Miley Cyrus. That is exactly the intent and purpose of photo spreads like this. They are positioning and promoting a product - which is the person - and selling it to the public. The photos are carefully construed to present a particular image and perception of that person. In the case of a Vanity Fair layout and spread, nothing is accidental.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 5/2/2008 11:16:20 AM >
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/2/2008 11:30:05 AM
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sjd2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
sjd2008: The Cyrus' weren't trying to sell a product.
Whether anyone thinks the photos were okay or not, let's at least not kid ourselves about this point. The product *was* Miley Cyrus. That is exactly the intent and purpose of photo spreads like this. They are positioning and promoting a product - which is the person - and selling it to the public. The photos are carefully construed to present a particular image and perception of that person. In the case of a Vanity Fair layout and spread, nothing is accidental.
You're correct, I didn't clarify that statement as I should have. They aren't being strictly commercial in that they were not selling someone else's product. They are trying to seel Mylie's new image. She can't be Hannah Montana for the rest of her life.
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/2/2008 12:31:13 PM
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sjd2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
quote:
The photos were not for ads
I understand that, and it is irrelevant. My point was that media has run with the entire "sex sells" agenda, and you can say that is not correct all you want. The truth is that modesty is a dying trait in today's society, and it is to the detriment of our children.
I never said that sex doesn't sell. It very much does. However, it only sells if the person perceives the image as sexy, sensual, or whatever. I don't think that you're getting my point. I don't find the photos sexy ,sensual or immodest. That's where we disagree.
I don't disagree with your premise. I just don't agree with your opinion about the photos.
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/2/2008 12:40:53 PM
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zoebob
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I guess some of us don't understand how a girl who is topless except for a bedsheet clutched to her chest isn't sexy/sensual.
That image suggests one of two scenerios: Either she sleeps in the nude and just woke up/going to bed, or she is trying to appear sexy. Both of those portray sexual innuendo...why else would you show someone getting ready for bed/getting up...especially if they are nude
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/2/2008 12:53:34 PM
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sjd2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
I guess some of us don't understand how a girl who is topless except for a bedsheet clutched to her chest isn't sexy/sensual.
That image suggests one of two scenerios: Either she sleeps in the nude and just woke up/going to bed, or she is trying to appear sexy. Both of those portray sexual innuendo...why else would you show someone getting ready for bed/getting up...especially if they are nude
The easiest explanation that I can give you is that the photo, to me, looks like portraits that painters used to do. I don't attach any scenario to the image, it's just a portrait. I don't view her as being any more topless than someone wearing a 2 piece swimsuit at the beach. I can understand some people's concerns. I just view the image in a different light.
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/2/2008 1:25:26 PM
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lw9
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quote:
zoebob: I guess some of us don't understand how a girl who is topless except for a bedsheet clutched to her chest isn't sexy/sensual.
That image suggests one of two scenerios: Either she sleeps in the nude and just woke up/going to bed, or she is trying to appear sexy. Both of those portray sexual innuendo...why else would you show someone getting ready for bed/getting up...especially if they are nude
Agreed. She's 15 years old, for heaven's sake. I don't care what the explanation is for the photos, they [and I include her parents in this... it's not like anyone can claim they were having an out of body experience at the time the photos were being shot and chosen and therefore did not know] are clearly sensualizing a child. But as others have pointed out, the standards are continually being lowered and this sort of thing has become the norm.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 5/2/2008 1:38:17 PM >
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/2/2008 2:46:31 PM
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sjd2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
quote:
The easiest explanation that I can give you is that the photo, to me, looks like portraits that painters used to do. I don't attach any scenario to the image, it's just a portrait. I don't view her as being any more topless than someone wearing a 2 piece swimsuit at the beach. I can understand some people's concerns. I just view the image in a different light.
Don't you see why that is so typical and sad? The fact that you can view images with that connotation and just blow it off displays how passe lack of modesty has become. How would this picture have been thought of 100 years ago?
We each view images through our own view. To me the image does not have the same connotation that it does for you. Can't you see that different people might have different views of the same image? I don't think that I'm being passe and I don't believe I've blown it off. I just look at the image in a different way than you do. You see something that's very blatant I see something in a different light. To answer your question about the picture being thought of 100 years ago. Try looking at some of the Impressionists work. Specifically Degas. In painting, there's a whole history of nude and semi-nude art that does back at least 600-700 years. Some of that art is a lot more sensual than the image of Miley.
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/2/2008 3:43:29 PM
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sjd2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
sjd,
I was not saying that you are being passe. As far as Degas, that is not an example of public display. Those pictures are now on display for millions, but they were not before. I know you do not understand my point, but it is still valid.
I'm not sure what you mean by Degas not an example of public display. Yes, they were very much on public display in art galleries,art shows/exhibits and ultimately museums.Degas did not paint forhis own pleasure, it was his profession. The only difference now is that Miley's images are seen by a lot more people alot quicker.
Wes, I really do understand your point. You feel that Miley as a Christian should not have posed in what you (and many other people) feel is a suggestive pose. I suspect that much of your reaction is to the fact that there seems to be a disconnect between her image as Hannah Montana and what is now been projected by the photos that were taken. I'm going to steal a Dilbertism by saying that she shifted images without a clutch.
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/2/2008 4:09:12 PM
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csl7037
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sjd2008
The easiest explanation that I can give you is that the photo, to me, looks like portraits that painters used to do. I don't attach any scenario to the image, it's just a portrait. I don't view her as being any more topless than someone wearing a 2 piece swimsuit at the beach. I can understand some people's concerns. I just view the image in a different light.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sjd2008
I don't think that I'm being passe and I don't believe I've blown it off. I just look at the image in a different way than you do. You see something that's very blatant I see something in a different light. To answer your question about the picture being thought of 100 years ago. Try looking at some of the Impressionists work. Specifically Degas. In painting, there's a whole history of nude and semi-nude art that does back at least 600-700 years. Some of that art is a lot more sensual than the image of Miley.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sjd2008
I'm not sure what you mean by Degas not an example of public display. Yes, they were very much on public display in art galleries,art shows/exhibits and ultimately museums.Degas did not paint forhis own pleasure, it was his profession. The only difference now is that Miley's images are seen by a lot more people alot quicker.
SJD is 100% correct.
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/2/2008 4:38:54 PM
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KatMack
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sjd and csl, would I be correct in guessing that y'all are women? I'm guessing that because I bet you would be hard-pressed to find any male over the age of 11 that wouldn't see those images as being quite sensual.
--Kat
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/2/2008 4:41:22 PM
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Qtman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KatMack
sjd and csl, would I be correct in guessing that y'all are women? I'm guessing that because I bet you would be hard-pressed to find any male over the age of 11 that wouldn't see those images as being quite sensual.
--Kat
Actually not that hard pressed. I am a male and though I may be showing my age I looked at those pictures and I saw a child. Were the photos proper? It's not for me to say however I can say with 100% certainty I did not fine them provokitive, sensual and neither was I aroused or turned on by them. If any was then it is they who have a problem. All being said she is still a child.
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/2/2008 4:43:39 PM
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fantom
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Keep in mind the photos were done by Annie Liebowitz who has photographed just about every celebrity and cultural icon for at least 30 yrs or so. How intimidating would she be to work with?
I don't think the average 15 year old is going to stand up to an artist of Liebowitz's level during a photo session.
Bear in mind, Miley also couldn't see how she looked while she was shot. If her parents or agent or whoever was bothered they should probably have spoken up.
What I saw of the pictures I didn't like. I didn't they were very flattering and were definitely too old for her. I don't really think they were the epic scandal they are painted to be.
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/2/2008 4:46:11 PM
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KatMack
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quote:
What I saw of the pictures I didn't like. I didn't they were very flattering and were definitely too old for her. I don't really think they were the epic scandal they are painted to be.
And in that epic scandal lies another shame in all of this. I never read Vanity Fair. Neither do the vast majority of those that these images would cause a problem for (the 11-25 year old males that I mentioned previously). But since such a controversy has been made of them, they are all over the internet and tv now.
--Kat
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). You'd be hard pressed to find a male between 11 and 25 that didn't find those images sensual.