RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (Full Version)

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CropDuster -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (4/30/2008 7:15:19 PM)

Paul was and remains immensely important, but.......he didn't know Jesus, and offered the first interpretations of Him. They're critical interpretations, in as much as they made the Biblical cut. Still, they're interpretations. Jesus is more important than Paul. No offense.



Ezra -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/1/2008 12:38:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CropDuster

Paul was and remains immensely important, but.......he didn't know Jesus, and offered the first interpretations of Him. They're critical interpretations, in as much as they made the Biblical cut. Still, they're interpretations. Jesus is more important than Paul. No offense.


Paul would take no offense to the bolded statement. As for the rest, he would say "Who has bewitched you?" (Gal. 3:1).



broken2live4him -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/1/2008 10:25:10 AM)

i believe in the bible cover to cover



cow451 -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/1/2008 1:29:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: broken2live4him

i believe in the bible cover to cover

Which one, KJV? What about translations into other languages besides English. Are those just as reliable?



DenimDiva -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/1/2008 1:37:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: broken2live4him

i believe in the bible cover to cover


me too!

Welcome to the boards!



CropDuster -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/1/2008 9:52:47 PM)

Do you worship the Bible?



Ezra -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/1/2008 10:14:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cow451

quote:

ORIGINAL: broken2live4him

i believe in the bible cover to cover

Which one, KJV? What about translations into other languages besides English. Are those just as reliable?


KJV is about as close as it gets, but that's another topic and another thread. For those who prefer Deutsch, Luther's translation should be perfect.



Ezra -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/1/2008 10:24:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CropDuster

Do you worship the Bible?


Why should it be necessary to worship to Bible in order to hold it in the highest regard?

The Bible is not an ikon or a statue to be venerated. It is literally the power of God unto salvation. Either it is God's Word or it isn't. If it isn't, read Shakespeare for entertainment. If it is, then it is God speaking directly to you in every word. Every word of God is pure (Ps. 12:6 an others).



CropDuster -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/2/2008 8:42:41 PM)

So you interpret it literally, and believe everything it says, literally?



Ezra -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/2/2008 10:27:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CropDuster
So you interpret it literally, and believe everything it says, literally?


Everything that is not clearly symbolical is meant to be taken literally. This means that there are figures of speech, symbols and allegories in the Bible.

For the most part, though, the Bible is to be interpreted in it's plain literal sense, comparing Scripture with Scripture.

The main thrust of this thread is that all 66 books (and only 66 books) are to be treated as the Word of God, given through prophets and apostles by Divine inspiration, therefore inerrant and infallible. Had the Hebrew Bible not been rearranged, there would have been fewer books.



CropDuster -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/2/2008 10:42:18 PM)

So, you don't always interpret it literally? Is that correct?



silofolous -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/2/2008 11:12:41 PM)

Basically yes, it isn't meant to be taken literally all the time, but it is to be taken literally the vast majority of the time, and when it isn't taken literally, the message it is speaking of should be heeded.

As for my belief, I believe in the 66 books of the Bible as the inerrant Word of God, but I also believe that that the Apocrypha and Dueterocanonical books should be heeded as important books, even if they aren't divinely inspired. Granted, I have yet to read the Apocrypha, so my opinion could change as I continue to read (but I just got a new Bible with the Apocrypha and the DC books, so I'm really happy about that).



Ezra -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/3/2008 12:12:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CropDuster
So, you don't always interpret it literally? Is that correct?


No. That is not correct.

You always interpret the Bible literally, which means you literally treat metaphors as metaphors, and symbols as symbols, and seek to understand their meaning.

"I am the Vine, ye are the branches" is a powerful truth when properly understood.

And you also literally take plain truth as plain unvarnished truth.



CropDuster -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/3/2008 9:47:15 AM)

"Everything that is not clearly symbolical is meant to be taken literally."

How do you know what is 'symbolic' and what should be taken literally?

"This means that there are figures of speech, symbols and allegories in the Bible."

How do you differentiate them from what should be taken literally? How do you know you're right in doing so?

"For the most part........."

Define or specifically describe 'most part'?

".....though, the Bible is to be interpreted in it's plain literal sense, comparing Scripture with Scripture."

But who decides? You? Your church? Pastor? Who?

I'm having difficulty following your logic. You seem to be contradicting yourself. You seem to be saying, "the bible must be believed 100%", but you can't explain how. You can't provide a standard formula for universal, absolute belief. If you can't do that, how can I follow your suggestions?



Annie64 -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/4/2008 3:29:05 AM)

I don't find Ezra's logic hard to follow because it is also how I view the Bible. I believe all 66 books literally. It's not hard to tell where there are things that are supposed to be interpreted differently if you read it carefully and consider the context. For example, if I read in the Bible that so and so told a parable, and then tells the parable, I accept the parable as a parable, but I believe the person really told the parable. As a matter of fact, when I read the book of Job I don't give a lot of credence to what Job's friends said because at the end, when God answered Job, He said that what Job said was right and what his friends said wasn't. But I believe that a historical Jonah really was swallowed by a great fish, was vomited up, and lived to tell about it. There is a variety of whale that is capable of that.



CropDuster -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/4/2008 10:15:26 AM)

Do you believe in slavery, the submission of women to men, the cutting off of one's anatomical appendages if and when they cause one to sin? Do you believe God really ordered the Israelites to commit untold atrocities in Palestine in order to conquer it? Do you believe God literally created woman by ripping out a rib from Adam's chest-cavity?

I won't pursue this any farther. Its course is all too predictable and well-worn. Suffice it to say I too take the Bible very seriously, and apply its many lessons to the way I live. Nonetheless, I consider it religious literature, written by men, and therefore, very much given to human fallibility. Through reason, however -- reason, that great gift from God we all possess -- I can discern which parts are misguided.

The Bible is not God.



DaveW -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/4/2008 11:38:25 AM)

I was surprised to find so many variations in cannon.

Here is the one for the Greek Orthodox and at the bottom of the page are links to the others. The most extensive addition to the 66 was this one:

...books of the Ethiopiac Canon of Eighty One:

* Psalm 151;
* Book of Enoch;
* Book of Jubilees;
* Prayer of Manasses;
* 1 Esdras;
* 2 Esdras;
* 1 Merkahb;
* 2 Merkahb;
* 3 Markahb;
* 1 Clement;
* 2 Clement;
* 1 Sinodus;
* 2 Sinodus;
* 3 Sinodus;
* 4 Sinodus;
* 1 Book of the Covenant;
* 2 Book of the Covenant;
* Didascalia;

Other texts in some cannons: 1,2,3,4 Macabees, 3 Corinthians.



broken2live4him -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/4/2008 12:22:18 PM)

catching up on reading the posts in this topic. worshipping the bible? No, we don't worship the bible, but the bible is to be held in high regard because it is the Word of God that tells one how to gain eternal life, how to live in peace and be right with the Lord, and it is... like a road map to get to Heaven. Those who have a relationship with God have learned and desire to meditate on what the Word teaches. the bible is a love letter to us from the Lord which gives us the good, bad, great, not so great, best, and worst. Those loving the Word of God are blessed. Also those who read and meditate on the Word of God and have applied the Word to their life have found the Word of God to be effective and true and have tried the Word and the promises of the Lord.



Dona Nobis Pacem -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/4/2008 1:26:16 PM)

I believe all 73 !!!

Peace,
DNP



Ezra -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/4/2008 1:51:20 PM)

CropDuster:

It is evident from this post that you do not believe that the Bible is the Word of God, but rather it is the words of men, and therefore "given to human fallibility". This, of course, is the typical approach of theological liberals, but this was not the understanding of Christ and the apostles. For Christ, every word in the Old Testament was a word of God, and He formulated His doctrines on that basis.


quote:

ORIGINAL: CropDuster
Do you believe in slavery,


The question is not whether one believes in slavery, but whether slavery was a fact of life as recorded in Scripture. And indeed it was so.

quote:

the submission of women to men,


This is clearly taught in Scripture, so there is no question that Christians must accept this as God's truth. Wives are commanded to submit themselves to their own husbands, and husbands are commanded to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself for it.

quote:

the cutting off of one's anatomical appendages if and when they cause one to sin?


This was clearly metaphorical, to teach that one would be better off maimed in this life because of sin, than to spend eternity in Hell because of it. But God has provided another way, and that is through believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and repenting of our sins.

quote:

Do you believe God really ordered the Israelites to commit untold atrocities in Palestine in order to conquer it?


What you consider "atrocities" God considered just retribution for the sin and evil that existed among the Canaanites. Yes, God indeed ordered this execution of judgment.

quote:

Do you believe God literally created woman by ripping out a rib from Adam's chest-cavity?


Whether the rib was "ripped" or gently extracted is not know. The latter would be more in keeping with God's "surgery". But this is the literal truth, since with God nothing is impossible. God also took a handful of dust and created the first man, so why should it be considered incongruous or out-of-character if God extracted one of the first man's ribs to create the first woman? There are some significant spiritual truths connected with this which have a bearing on the Church.

quote:

I won't pursue this any farther. Its course is all too predictable and well-worn. Suffice it to say I too take the Bible very seriously, and apply its many lessons to the way I live. Nonetheless, I consider it religious literature, written by men, and therefore, very much given to human fallibility. Through reason, however -- reason, that great gift from God we all possess -- I can discern which parts are misguided.


One cannot discern spiritual truth with human reason. It is only through the aid of the Holy Spirit and comparing Scripture with Scripture, that one may discern God's truth. As long as you refuse to believe that the Bible is literally the Word of God, you will gain little from it.

quote:

The Bible is not God.


No. The Bible is not God, but it is the revelation of the heart, mind, and purposes of God as they relate to humanity. The words of Scripture are words of life and words of truth. It is to be approached as though God Himself is speaking through His written Word. That is why the declaration "It is written" was sufficient for Christ.



BibleBased -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/4/2008 3:22:42 PM)

Ezra - there are a few people on this forum that are restoring my faith in my brothers & sisters in Christ. That last post was great and i stand firmly beside you in what you say. This topic was started by myself, because i needed to know where the people on site stand, after spending months fighting for our faith on a UK christian site. The battle is lost there and i am not alone in leaving the so called christians there to swop satan's foolishness with eachother.
I believe Cropduster is on the wrong site and if he wishes to personal message me, i can suggest a great site he'd fit in more on! However people like him have a great use. When they doubt the Word of God, each of us has to make our stand. Firmly behind Holy Spirit inspired scripture or on the side of fighting God's Word the bible.
Good bless the bible believing christians on this site. Again you have proved you are servants of the Living Lord Jesus. May he one day soon reward you all. Love BibleBased.



JordanW -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/4/2008 4:39:19 PM)

I believe there is 66 books.



CropDuster -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/4/2008 5:00:08 PM)

"..............but this was not the understanding of Christ and the apostles. For Christ, every word in the Old Testament was a word of God, and He formulated His doctrines on that basis."

No....He broke a lot of Old Testament rules, regulations and sacred laws, and was ultimately executed for having done so. Jesus was a rebel, if there ever was one. He violated Judaism, a religion of The Book, in a major way, by claiming to be the Messiah. Again, that got Him killed. And, as you know, He had no knowledge of the New Testament, because the Catholic Church hadn't assembled it during His lifetime.

You can't defend the credibility of the Bible by quoting the Bible. That's illogical. OF COURSE the Bible is going to say it's the ultimate source of truth. That goes without saying. That's the point. It's not a good source on its own validity. Its self-interest is obvious and profound. For example, am I right just because I say I'm right? Of course not.



CropDuster -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/4/2008 5:09:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BibleBased

Ezra - there are a few people on this forum that are restoring my faith in my brothers & sisters in Christ. That last post was great and i stand firmly beside you in what you say. This topic was started by myself, because i needed to know where the people on site stand, after spending months fighting for our faith on a UK christian site. The battle is lost there and i am not alone in leaving the so called christians there to swop satan's foolishness with eachother.
I believe Cropduster is on the wrong site and if he wishes to personal message me, i can suggest a great site he'd fit in more on! However people like him have a great use. When they doubt the Word of God, each of us has to make our stand. Firmly behind Holy Spirit inspired scripture or on the side of fighting God's Word the bible.
Good bless the bible believing christians on this site. Again you have proved you are servants of the Living Lord Jesus. May he one day soon reward you all. Love BibleBased.


No offense, but you're not fighting for Christ. You're fighting for the Bible. There is a difference. God is not a book. The Bible is not God. It's a tool, and nothing more. Indeed, it's an immensely important tool, but it's still just a tool. I have offended you because my focus is slightly different from yours; yet we both worship the same God. We just take a slightly different approach. No......I don't want to hang-out with atheists, but with Christians. NONETHELESS, in the spirit of ecumenism, we should try to be tolerant of one another. The fact that I don't belong to your sect deosn't mean I'm not a Christian. Sectarianism divides and damages humanity.



LoyalGypsy -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/4/2008 5:29:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lurker

quote:

ORIGINAL: BibleBased

Quite a relief so far! I'm not a new christian BTW only new to this site. It's been about 10 years since i returned to faith, i'm 39, and i grew up with 3 services on a sunday till i was 13, and on and off attendence in the gap years.
I'm interested without starting a debate please what are those 'extra' 10 books mariadreamer. Is it a Jerusalem or similar bible? I'm looking to make new friends, so anyone looking for an arguement - just walk away. Love BibleBased.



Mariadreamer is Eastern Orthodox. I'm sure you're aware that the Catholic Church recognizes as canonical books such as 1st and 2nd Maccabees, Tobit, etc. The Eastern Orthodox recognize those books as canonical as well as 3rd and 4th Maccabees and the Prayer of Manesseh. There's a thread on the debate behind the biblical canon which I won't go into here. :) But as a Catholic my bible contains 73 books, the Eastern Orthodox have 76, and I want to say that the Oriental Orthodox have 78 books... I'll have to ask one of my neighbors.


Greetings,

Isn’t the book of Tobit mythological?
Praying to the dead, and stuff like that, even though Jesus said there is a great gulf affixed so that misinterpreting it would stand out like a sore thumb??[:(]


I mean the golden lampstand in the Holy Place prophesied 66 not 73, how did they mess that up??

quote:

I'll have to ask one of my neighbors.


Perhaps one should ask them why….one would be surprised at the answer. [8|]



LG



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