RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (Full Version)

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CropDuster -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/4/2008 5:34:49 PM)

God bless America. I love the fact my freedom of expression and religion are constitutionally protected. The degree to which religion divides is scary. God bless America's founders. They were super-smart dudes.



CropDuster -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/4/2008 8:22:21 PM)

The Last Judgment or Day of the Lord is the judgment by Jesus Christ of every human who ever lived. It will take place after the resurrection of the dead and the Second Coming (Revelation 20:12–15).

To the best of my knowledge, these events haven't taken place yet.



ta_mosquito -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/4/2008 8:32:07 PM)

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Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/4/2008 10:29:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CropDuster
No....He broke a lot of Old Testament rules, regulations and sacred laws, and was ultimately executed for having done so.
Wow. Where is that written in the Bible?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CropDuster
He violated Judaism, a religion of The Book, in a major way, by claiming to be the Messiah.
Can you explain this?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CropDuster
Again, that got Him killed. And, as you know, He had no knowledge of the New Testament, because the Catholic Church hadn't assembled it during His lifetime.
Can you explain this while still claiming that Messiah is G-d? Or do you not believe He is G-d?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CropDuster
You can't defend the credibility of the Bible by quoting the Bible. That's illogical. OF COURSE the Bible is going to say it's the ultimate source of truth. That goes without saying. That's the point. It's not a good source on its own validity. Its self-interest is obvious and profound. For example, am I right just because I say I'm right? Of course not.
You can't unless you are a believer, anyway. Belief in G-d is not sustained or supported merely by human logic, knowledge, or philosophy. Therefore, you must not be a believer -- right?



Ezra -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/5/2008 2:15:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CropDuster
No....He broke a lot of Old Testament rules, regulations and sacred laws, and was ultimately executed for having done so. Jesus was a rebel, if there ever was one. He violated Judaism, a religion of The Book, in a major way, by claiming to be the Messiah. Again, that got Him killed.


CropDuster:

You speak as one who is not too familiar with what Jesus of Nazareth did and did not do. He upheld not just the letter but the spirit of the Old Testament. And He came to fulfill "the Law and the Prophets" (which He did). Therefore He condemned the "tradition of the elders" or Rabbinic Judaism. He was opposed by the scribes, lawyers and Pharisees because of this. And He rightfully claimed to be Messiah -- the King of Israel -- which did get Him killed

quote:

And, as you know, He had no knowledge of the New Testament, because the Catholic Church hadn't assembled it during His lifetime.


This is so naive that it is difficult to understand how anyone could arrive at this conclusion. Jesus is the eternal Word of God, and He by the Holy Spirit gave the words of the New Testament to the evangelists and apostles. He was the only one with perfect knoweldge of the New Testament even before it was written, since He inspired it! (BTW, it wasn't the Catholic Church that assembled the NT, but the canon of the NT was ratified by a council of bishops).

quote:

You can't defend the credibility of the Bible by quoting the Bible. That's illogical.


Why is it illogical? Since the Bible was regarded as the Word of God since it's inception, it has all the authority of God behind it. Therefore Christ quoted the Bible to defend it's credibility.

quote:

OF COURSE the Bible is going to say it's the ultimate source of truth. That goes without saying. That's the point. It's not a good source on its own validity. Its self-interest is obvious and profound. For example, am I right just because I say I'm right? Of course not.


There's a huge difference between your self-interest and the objective truth of the Bible. The Bible is valid because God says so. And God is beyond human pettiness and "self-interest". He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is also the Holy One.



Annie64 -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/5/2008 3:04:13 AM)

While I do believe it is legitimate to defend the Bible by quoting the Bible, there are a lot of people (like Crop Duster) for whom this isn't going to do any good, because they don't believe it to start with. But there is evidence outside the Bible that points to the Bible being true. No historical claim that the Bible has made has ever been disproved. Many have actually been proved. But I think what really most made me believe the Bible was the lives of people I knew who also believed it, and who lived it in front of me. Sure, people have messed up, but I have been blessed to know people who genuinely believe in and love God. They taught me that the way to Him is through His Son Jesus Christ, and where they learned that was the Bible. I believe it because I have founded my own life on it, and because and only because of this, I have a good life. I believe the Bible because I believe that God inspired it, and that He does not lie, and that He has perfect knowledge. I do not worship the Bible. I read it, study it, believe it, and apply it because I worship God.



BibleBased -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/5/2008 6:20:30 AM)

Cropduster - i find people like you very differcult. I want to say that all people who believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ are saved. My problems with other Christians usually start over the bible - hence my site name. If a person denys that ALL scripture is inspired, and in some cases this means they only believe in the death and resurrection and NOTHING else - alarm bells start to ring. If they go on to post against anything and everything the bible teaches, i find it differcult to see how the Holy Spirit is living in them. Some of these people are badly educated fools, others are highly educated fools.
I find God's teaching hard. Despite wanting to obey, my whole sinful being fights against it every minute of every day. But i know God is right and i know the Bible contains everything i need in this life to teach me the right way. I won't say you are not saved, a follower of our Lord Jesus, but i believe that what you say/ post is extremely dangerous to new believers, seekers, young christians and even those christians of many years who aren't in the bible regularly. It is also very dangerous to your own daily walk with our Lord - if not your salvation?
Will you answer a straight question, honestly? How much of the bible do you believe? How many books out of the 66, or a rough % of the whole?
God bless, BibleBased.



DaveW -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/5/2008 6:24:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CropDuster

No....He broke a lot of Old Testament rules, regulations and sacred laws, and was ultimately executed for having done so. Jesus was a rebel, if there ever was one. He violated Judaism, a religion of The Book, in a major way, by claiming to be the Messiah. Again, that got Him killed. And, as you know, He had no knowledge of the New Testament, because the Catholic Church hadn't assembled it during His lifetime.
If that is true then we are all in BIG trouble. Hebrews tells us He was tempted in all ways yet without sin. If HE EVER sinned, even once, and as a Jew under the Mosaic covenant, breaking even one jot or tittle of the Torah would have disqualified Him from being our perfect spotless sacrifice.



CropDuster -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/5/2008 6:25:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

quote:

ORIGINAL: CropDuster
No....He broke a lot of Old Testament rules, regulations and sacred laws, and was ultimately executed for having done so.
Wow. Where is that written in the Bible?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CropDuster
He violated Judaism, a religion of The Book, in a major way, by claiming to be the Messiah.
Can you explain this?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CropDuster
Again, that got Him killed. And, as you know, He had no knowledge of the New Testament, because the Catholic Church hadn't assembled it during His lifetime.
Can you explain this while still claiming that Messiah is G-d? Or do you not believe He is G-d?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CropDuster
You can't defend the credibility of the Bible by quoting the Bible. That's illogical. OF COURSE the Bible is going to say it's the ultimate source of truth. That goes without saying. That's the point. It's not a good source on its own validity. Its self-interest is obvious and profound. For example, am I right just because I say I'm right? Of course not.
You can't unless you are a believer, anyway. Belief in G-d is not sustained or supported merely by human logic, knowledge, or philosophy. Therefore, you must not be a believer -- right?


Wrong. I most definitely am a believer. Are you saying that anyone who disagrees with you is not a believer? God gave us Reason to better understand Him, to partake in the divine intelligence, to become creators of peace and justice, in His name, therewith.



CropDuster -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/5/2008 6:34:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

ORIGINAL: CropDuster

No....He broke a lot of Old Testament rules, regulations and sacred laws, and was ultimately executed for having done so. Jesus was a rebel, if there ever was one. He violated Judaism, a religion of The Book, in a major way, by claiming to be the Messiah. Again, that got Him killed. And, as you know, He had no knowledge of the New Testament, because the Catholic Church hadn't assembled it during His lifetime.
If that is true then we are all in BIG trouble. Hebrews tells us He was tempted in all ways yet without sin. If HE EVER sinned, even once, and as a Jew under the Mosaic covenant, breaking even one jot or tittle of the Torah would have disqualified Him from being our perfect spotless sacrifice.


You're a Catch 22 situation, as a Biblical fundamentalist. I doubt you're in 'big trouble', however. God understands that all people take different paths to His salvation; otherwise, He would have insisted on a unitary approach. To my way of thinking, you can't argue that Jesus perfectly upheld the Old Testament, when in fact it was against that standard that Jewish leaders condemned Him for sedition and blasphemy, and put Him to death. The most you can do, logically, IMO, with respect of course, is assert that you believe He believed He was in perfect accord with the Old Testament. Many of the Jews, especially those who killed Him, violently disagreed, and they too followed and believed in the Old Testament. Again, literal interpretation of and over-dependency on the Bible leads to intellectual and even spiritual 'tail-chasing'.

I don't need literal interpretation. I simply believe what Jesus said about Himself, and follow Him. I believe Him. He is my life. He is my life, and nothing else. The Bible is a marvelous guide to Christ. It is not, however, the final word on Christianity, or infallible, just as my pope is not infallible.



Annie64 -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/5/2008 7:30:48 AM)

When Jesus was condemned for sedition and blasphemy, it was not because He was out of line with the Old Testament. It was because He claimed to be God, and the Jewish leaders did not believe Him.



BibleBased -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/5/2008 8:24:32 AM)

What i can't understand is why people who don't believe the bible can't be honest. If I didn't believe the bible, i would clearly say i was not a christian. If i wanted to argue against it every day, find loop holes, put man's word above it, and my knowledge and educated fools knowledge above God's.

That's what i personally would do. Infact i would stop my daily bible reading, move away from christian people and christian web sites, and find a new interest. What i wouldn't do is say I'm a Christian like the rest of you, but you're all wrong and i'm right. Let me prove to you that the bible isn't inspired by God or suitable for teaching, correcting, living a good holy life.

I know people both in real life and even more on the net, who just have invested too much time and reading in christianity to walk away. They wouldn't know what to do in their life. Also Christians are too loving unconditionally in most cases to say 'you are a complete idiot and God will punish you.'

Of course that's only what i would do and what i think Christians should do if i hung around saying these things and does NOT refer to anyone else. Love BibleBased.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/5/2008 12:15:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CropDuster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

quote:

ORIGINAL: CropDuster
No....He broke a lot of Old Testament rules, regulations and sacred laws, and was ultimately executed for having done so.
Wow. Where is that written in the Bible?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CropDuster
He violated Judaism, a religion of The Book, in a major way, by claiming to be the Messiah.
Can you explain this?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CropDuster
Again, that got Him killed. And, as you know, He had no knowledge of the New Testament, because the Catholic Church hadn't assembled it during His lifetime.
Can you explain this while still claiming that Messiah is G-d? Or do you not believe He is G-d?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CropDuster
You can't defend the credibility of the Bible by quoting the Bible. That's illogical. OF COURSE the Bible is going to say it's the ultimate source of truth. That goes without saying. That's the point. It's not a good source on its own validity. Its self-interest is obvious and profound. For example, am I right just because I say I'm right? Of course not.
You can't unless you are a believer, anyway. Belief in G-d is not sustained or supported merely by human logic, knowledge, or philosophy. Therefore, you must not be a believer -- right?


Wrong. I most definitely am a believer. Are you saying that anyone who disagrees with you is not a believer? God gave us Reason to better understand Him, to partake in the divine intelligence, to become creators of peace and justice, in His name, therewith.

Well, you didn't bother to answer the questions at all. Why? If you are a believer, upon whom do you believe? A sinner-jesus? I do not ask you that to defame or embarrass you; I ask out of concern. If a sinner-jesus broke covenant with G-d, why would you believe in him? It is easy to just copy some errant teacher and claim that Messiah broke covenant, but it would be better to read the Bible and learn for youself that He did not.

So I am asking again: what Scriptures did He disobey?

Is He or is He not G-d?

Is He or is He not the Word, the Author, by whom all Scripture was written?

Do you or do you not have faith in the Messiah of the Bible, and if so, which parts of the Bible explain Him in your opinion, and which parts are irrelevant?



DaveW -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/6/2008 6:48:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Annie64

When Jesus was condemned for sedition and blasphemy, it was not because He was out of line with the Old Testament.
That is not exactly true. He was certainly out of line with certain interpretations of OT laws. That was part of his condemnation.

He healed on the Sabbath. Was that "work" which was prohibited on shabbat? The text does not define "work." The school of Shammai said it was a violation while the school of Hillel said it was not.

He and his disciples picked grain for personal consumption on the sabbath. Was that "work" which was prohibited on shabbat? The school of Shammai said it was a violation while the school of Hillel said it was not.

In the next century - after the destruction of the temple - rabbinical Judiasm settled on Hillel's rules mostly. (except the grain - they went with Shammai on that one)

But Yeshua/Jesus is our example. BY pressing into God and listening to the Holy Spirit it is certainly possible to come to an alternative understanding of the text that is also legitimate. He showed us that the sages of old were not infallable. At times their teachings actually had people breaking scriptural commands.

He may have violated some intrepretations of scripture but never scripture itself.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/6/2008 6:37:08 PM)

The words contained in the 66 books of the Bible are true enough. The translations into english are innacurate at times, sometimes there are words in the original language that don't have counterparts in English (case in point: Selah), but the fact is that the Bible is true. You will hear a lot of different things when you ask a question like this, but believe the Bible. Angels exist, God can give visitations and miracles, and people can be caught up to heaven. It's in the Bible, it is how God deals with humanity, and God loves us passionately.

Adam



Annie64 -> RE: 66 Books - how many do you believe? (5/9/2008 4:52:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

ORIGINAL: Annie64

When Jesus was condemned for sedition and blasphemy, it was not because He was out of line with the Old Testament.

He may have violated some intrepretations of scripture but never scripture itself.


That was what I meant. Sorry I was unclear. [;)]



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