RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (Full Version)

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davemiller7 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/13/2008 1:10:28 PM)

I couldn't agree with you more. To me, it seems quite conceited and arrogant to think (and say) that we mere humans have the power to destroy that which our Lord has created for us. Yes, we can mess it up, but destroy it, I don't think so.

On several occasions I have caught myself getting overheated in these pages so I am refraining from getting caught up in arguing with some people. Hope I haven't offended anyone. If I have, I'm sorry. That wasn't my intent. I do enjoy intelligent discussions, but not nit-picking and worrying about "what the meaning of is is."

-Dave

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sophie11

Just a thought. I've noticed some of you arguing that it's all those nasty "right-wingers" and "conservatives" that don't believe global warming is caused by man, as if their reason is simply that that is what the right is supposed to believe so they follow.

By saying that you are showing that this is a political issue for you. So then one could say that you are actually the ones who are biased, and maybe you are the ones simply following the party line.

If someone really cares about this issue, and they're not just using it as a political argument, then shouldn't they be more concerned with getting whatever facts they believe to be true across to as many people as they can instead of using it to bash the other side?

For the record, I do believe that the weather has been changing, but I do not believe the cause to be mankind. I believe it to be caused by other factors, namely sunspots. I am one of those horrible conservatives, but yes I do also think President Bush is wrong when he blames it on cars. It is just what I believe, and it is not based on what side of the aisle the information is coming from, but rather what seems to me to be the most logical explanation. I think this conversation about global warming has become extremely nasty for a lot of people, and it doesn't need to be so. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions on the subject, be them right or wrong.



mapachito13 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/13/2008 1:28:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lizahana

He, and I, and hundreds of countries around the globe and the EPA, the Bush Admin, NASA, the NOAA, the UN, the IPCC, hundreds of companies across the globe, billions of people across the globe, yeah, we all apparently drank some 'koolaid' - hmmm....NOT!

Peace and God bless,


Well Kool-Aid drinkers, I hope I live long enough to enjoy my beachfront property that will be created by the rising seas since I live 40 miles away now.

How come all these government "experts" aren't preparing for the massive migration to come because of rising seas. After all, the biggest kooks (oops, experts) are are saying we've reached the "tipping point" and we're past the "point of no return". Global Warming Irreversible

I'm going to enjoy owning a multi-million dollar property. [:D] I guess every cloud has its silver lining! [:D]



davemiller7 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/13/2008 2:38:21 PM)

I'm about 100 miles inland, but the land here in NC is so flat I'll bet I'll also be on the beachfront. You're right, I don't notice any big rush to divest themselves of their soon to be submerged property (think: the Kennedy compound on Cape Cod).

-Dave

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lizahana

He, and I, and hundreds of countries around the globe and the EPA, the Bush Admin, NASA, the NOAA, the UN, the IPCC, hundreds of companies across the globe, billions of people across the globe, yeah, we all apparently drank some 'koolaid' - hmmm....NOT!

Peace and God bless,


Well Kool-Aid drinkers, I hope I live long enough to enjoy my beachfront property that will be created by the rising seas since I live 40 miles away now.

How come all these government "experts" aren't preparing for the massive migration to come because of rising seas. After all, the biggest kooks (oops, experts) are are saying we've reached the "tipping point" and we're past the "point of no return". Global Warming Irreversible

I'm going to enjoy owning a multi-million dollar property. [:D] I guess every cloud has its silver lining! [:D]



lightshineon -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/13/2008 2:47:19 PM)

Cool my husband is from NC, lived there for awhile. My inlaws still do, it is a state where you se the beauty of Gods creation.
quote:

ORIGINAL: davemiller7

I'm about 100 miles inland, but the land here in NC is so flat I'll bet I'll also be on the beachfront. You're right, I don't notice any big rush to divest themselves of their soon to be submerged property (think: the Kennedy compound on Cape Cod).

-Dave

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lizahana

He, and I, and hundreds of countries around the globe and the EPA, the Bush Admin, NASA, the NOAA, the UN, the IPCC, hundreds of companies across the globe, billions of people across the globe, yeah, we all apparently drank some 'koolaid' - hmmm....NOT!

Peace and God bless,


Well Kool-Aid drinkers, I hope I live long enough to enjoy my beachfront property that will be created by the rising seas since I live 40 miles away now.

How come all these government "experts" aren't preparing for the massive migration to come because of rising seas. After all, the biggest kooks (oops, experts) are are saying we've reached the "tipping point" and we're past the "point of no return". Global Warming Irreversible

I'm going to enjoy owning a multi-million dollar property. [:D] I guess every cloud has its silver lining! [:D]




mapachito13 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/13/2008 3:15:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: davemiller7

I'm about 100 miles inland, but the land here in NC is so flat I'll bet I'll also be on the beachfront. You're right, I don't notice any big rush to divest themselves of their soon to be submerged property (think: the Kennedy compound on Cape Cod).

-Dave



All the movie stars are safe. Most of their Malibu properties are much higher than the surrounding ocean. I am going to have to talk to the beach lifeguards this summer to see if they are building up the sand to stave off the sea!



davemiller7 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/13/2008 3:39:07 PM)

We live about halfway between Raleigh and Fayetteville. Not the most scenic area right here, but there's a little bit of everything in NC - beach, mountains, rolling hills, etc. But best of all - NO SNOW (well not too much anyway!!) We did get snowbound here for 3-4 days, longer than when we ever were in upstate NY.

-Dave

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

Cool my husband is from NC, lived there for awhile. My inlaws still do, it is a state where you se the beauty of Gods creation.



davemiller7 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/13/2008 3:42:01 PM)

I guess that means that Barbra Streissand (sp?), Alec Baldwin, et al are still going to be with us? [:'(]

-Dave

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13

quote:

ORIGINAL: davemiller7

I'm about 100 miles inland, but the land here in NC is so flat I'll bet I'll also be on the beachfront. You're right, I don't notice any big rush to divest themselves of their soon to be submerged property (think: the Kennedy compound on Cape Cod).

-Dave



All the movie stars are safe. Most of their Malibu properties are much higher than the surrounding ocean. I am going to have to talk to the beach lifeguards this summer to see if they are building up the sand to stave off the sea!



mapachito13 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/13/2008 4:23:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: davemiller7

I guess that means that Barbra Streissand (sp?), Alec Baldwin, et al are still going to be with us? [:'(]

-Dave



They'll be running the country (more than they do now) since Chesapeake Bay will become the Chesapeake Sea and turn DC into the Bay of Columbia. The bigger tragedy is all the species of fish that will die due to the toxicity of adding all those politicians to the sea. (Worse than the Exxon Valdes). Although that has a bright spot in that scenario as well. Now if only we could put the pols in the sea WITHout killing all the fish.[8|][:D]



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/13/2008 8:25:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sophie11
Just a thought. I've noticed some of you arguing that it's all those nasty "right-wingers" and "conservatives" that don't believe global warming is caused by man, as if their reason is simply that that is what the right is supposed to believe so they follow.
By saying that you are showing that this is a political issue for you

You are correct that right-wingers tend to follow the flock, i.e. follow party lines, so to speak. By doing this, the right has shown that it is a political issue for them, in fact, more so than a scientific issue.

quote:

So then one could say that you are actually the ones who are biased, and maybe you are the ones simply following the party line.

There is just one of me, not "ones."
And why do you conclude that I am just following party lines?

quote:

If someone really cares about this issue, and they're not just using it as a political argument, then shouldn't they be more concerned with getting whatever facts they believe to be true across to as many people as they can instead of using it to bash the other side?

Unfortunately, because the right has politicized the issue, this is not possible. One cannot present arguments supporting the global warming theory without facing endless ad hominem attacks on Al Gore and themselves for daring to align with "Hollywood."

quote:

For the record, I do believe that the weather has been changing, but I do not believe the cause to be mankind. I believe it to be caused by other factors, namely sunspots.

Sunspot activity does vary, but there is no study that I know of that shows a direct correlation between increased sunspot activity and a notable shift in global climate trends spanning a long period of time, e.g. a couple centuries or more.
If you know of any, I'm open to the data.

quote:

I am one of those horrible conservatives, but yes I do also think President Bush is wrong when he blames it on cars.

I agree; he is wrong-- partly, anyway. Cars are only a limited factor. Industry and deforestation play a much bigger role than Mr. Bush is willing to admit.

quote:

I think this conversation about global warming has become extremely nasty for a lot of people, and it doesn't need to be so. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions on the subject, be them right or wrong.

Believe it or not, I agree. But once the mud is slung, it can't be unslung.



lightshineon -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/13/2008 8:38:59 PM)

Oh, but the Bible says a kind answear turns away wrath.[;)]



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/13/2008 8:45:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Oh, but the Bible says a kind answear turns away wrath.

Perhaps, but I doubt that it will turn away ad hominem.



Ruthie -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/13/2008 9:31:17 PM)

I looked all over in the thread and may have missed it but I've been reading articles like this one lately : New Ice Age

How can we be at risk of global warming because of man and at the same time be at risk of an ice age because of the sun. Its one or the other and I've been starting to hear more and more about global cooling.

If the sun's solar cycle determines when an ice age occurs, how come the solar cycle isn't the reason for global warming? I mean, if Few Sunspots = Cooling then shouldn't Many Sunspots = Warming?

I understand that polluting our environment is bad and we should try to reduce it but the Sun must be the main reason for temperature cycles, yes? Are we the big deal we thought we were?



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/13/2008 9:57:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruthie
I looked all over in the thread and may have missed it but I've been reading articles like this one lately

The article is making too much out of what we could call a "cold snap." One or two unseasonably cold winters do not offset the unseasonably hot summers and the overall 150 year warming trend.

quote:

How can we be at risk of global warming because of man and at the same time be at risk of an ice age because of the sun. Its one or the other and I've been starting to hear more and more about global cooling.

One theory is that global warming causes great global climatic instability, i.e. hot temeratures toward the tropics and severe glaciation in the poles. The Permian Mass Extinction was believed to be an example of this-- that's one theory, anyway.

quote:

If the sun's solar cycle determines when an ice age occurs, how come the solar cycle isn't the reason for global warming? I mean, if Few Sunspots = Cooling then shouldn't Many Sunspots = Warming?

Because the Greenhouse Effect is the favored theory behind global warming. It has as much to do with our own atmosphere as it does with the sun.

quote:

I understand that polluting our environment is bad and we should try to reduce it but the Sun must be the main reason for temperature cycles, yes?

No.



Ruthie -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/13/2008 11:40:58 PM)

But what about the statement that a lack of sunspots could trigger an ice age? That seems to be what he was worried about, sunspots. The article is saying that sunspot cycles are a major trigger for ice age. Is that true or not? Its not the first article I've read that was worried about a lack of sunspots.

People were mentioning the "Little Ice Age" so I looked it up. The articles cited two main causes : Volcanic activity (Co2, I guess) AND low sunpot activity. This means that the sun must also have a measurable impact on weather.

Doesn't the sun create our weather in the first place? I don't understand how the sun wouldn't have an impact. [sm=sadquestion.gif]

Maybe the low sunspot activity will mitigate some of the global warming? [sm=icon_smile_idea.gif]

I don't really get the whole global warming scare. I remember the last scare back in the 70's when they were all upset about an imminent ice age.

Nobody seems to be able to make up their minds : ice age, global warming, now ice age AND global warming. Scientists can't even agree on this much.

The guy who wrote the article says he's a geophysicist and astronautical engineer. It sounds like he should have some idea of what he's talking about but I don't know what a geophysicist or astronautical engineer is. [sm=blush.gif]



mapachito13 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/14/2008 4:19:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

By doing this, the right has shown that it is a political issue for them, in fact, more so than a scientific issue.



Speaking of science for the third or fourth time. WHY DON'T THEY POST THEIR UNCERTAINTIES? All reputable scientists do that up front. Even opinion polls give their statistical margin of error. If we are talking 1 degree and your error is one degree or more, then, its not science, it's DATA MUNIPULATION!

I've been searching for links to these doomsayers methodology and haven't been able to find one. And as an owner of a testing lab that operates in the earth sciences, I know how important thinks like methodology and uncertainties are!



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/14/2008 9:29:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruthie
The article is saying that sunspot cycles are a major trigger for ice age. Is that true or not?

No. In fact, what the article said was that minimal sunspot activity has been known in the past (the years 1790 and 1812 were referenced in the article) to correlate with cold spells. Neither 1790 nor 1812 triggered new ice ages.

quote:

People were mentioning the "Little Ice Age" so I looked it up. The articles cited two main causes : Volcanic activity (Co2, I guess) AND low sunpot activity. This means that the sun must also have a measurable impact on weather.

The sun always has a measurable impact on weather. It is our heat source. But it is a fairly stable and constant heat source, whereas global warming is not constant. We need to look at conditions here on earth to explain the phenomenon.

quote:

Maybe the low sunspot activity will mitigate some of the global warming?

It probably will have little impact on the Greenhouse Effect, which is chiefly an atmospheric condition.

quote:

I don't really get the whole global warming scare. I remember the last scare back in the 70's when they were all upset about an imminent ice age.

Global warming could ultimately trigger another ice age in the long run. That's one theory, anyway. I don't put a lot of stock in it, but it is worth considering.

quote:

Nobody seems to be able to make up their minds : ice age, global warming, now ice age AND global warming. Scientists can't even agree on this much.

There are many possibilities. Please click on that link to the Permian Extinction: it demonstrates how various and cataclysmic global weather patterns shifts can be.

quote:

The guy who wrote the article says he's a geophysicist and astronautical engineer. It sounds like he should have some idea of what he's talking about but I don't know what a geophysicist or astronautical engineer is.

Geophysics combines geology and physics. Geology is very germane to global warming. However, I have no idea what an astronautical engineer is. I smell a rat around that claim.



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/14/2008 9:47:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Speaking of science for the third or fourth time. WHY DON'T THEY POST THEIR UNCERTAINTIES?

I don't know what you are refering to specifically. They are going to focus more on the certainties than on the uncertainties, aren't they? Is that really so unreasonable?

quote:

If we are talking 1 degree and your error is one degree or more, then, its not science, it's DATA MUNIPULATION!

So unless we interpret the data with anything less 100% certainty and accuracy, and have 100% unilateral agreement, then the conclusions are no good? That is ludicrous.

quote:

I've been searching for links to these doomsayers methodology and haven't been able to find one.

Don't listen to "doomsayers." People-- mostly religious people-- have been predicting The End for ages now, and it does not help mankind at all. Forget apocalypse-mongers.



freakofnature -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/14/2008 10:18:50 AM)

quote:

There are many possibilities. Please click on that link to the Permian Extinction: it demonstrates how various and cataclysmic global weather patterns shifts can be.


None of which humans had anything to do with?

Ruthie; My dear, you are a trooper for taking on Mr. double think. I applaud your efforts. GW is still a farce, a fraudulent means to force America and it's citizens to eat worms and give our wallets to the likes of Algore, or as I affectionately call him manbearpig. The GW activist have set themselves up as "can't be wrong" no matter what happens to the global weather patterns, they have made it so they are always right! And ya' just can't argue with that logic.

"The earth is cooling and will be for the next decade or so!" Graphs here and HERE and see this articleScientiest have stated recently but the GW activist/alarmist will say:

"See We told you, GW is effecting the earth so much that it is actually cooling... I know it isn't logical but see we told you so!"



Ruthie -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/14/2008 10:20:49 AM)

Sorry, I missed that link the first time, dblthnk. I will read it. Thank you for clearing things up.

I also found out what an astronautical engineer is : Astronautics, or Astronautical Engineering, is the branch of engineering that deals with machines designed to exit or work entirely beyond the Earth's atmosphere. In other words, it is the science and technology of space flight.

So this guy works for the space industry. I guess that doesn't really qualify him as an expert on climatology, does it?

Edit : I'm not satisfied with either side of the argument, so far. Both sides seem too sure of themselves and give contradictory explanations. I need to study more on this subject. I am still not sure how much of an impact mankind has. If climate can cause mass extinctions without man, how can we say for sure that this climate change is because of us? How can they be so sure? Still looking, still studying...



lightshineon -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/14/2008 10:28:21 AM)

I am I do not care attitude. I will just do what God leads me taking care of his creation, and not go batty with worry using one sheet of single ply toliet paper. Just recycle, lose pollution, carry a tote if so inclined, but anything else is just going to far.



freakofnature -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/14/2008 10:28:30 AM)

This statement from NOAA:

Increase in Hurricane activity not related to GLOBAL WARMING

OR this statement here from Paleoclimatologist Bob Carter of James Cook Univ.:
quote:

the IPCC is in "full panic mode" and positioning themselves to "explain away" declining temperatures.


Or what about this:
Lord Monckton of Brenchley, science advisor to the Thatcher administration and a regular commentator on climate issues, tells DailyTech none of the IPCC's computer models can explain a decade of cooling.



freakofnature -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/14/2008 10:37:12 AM)

Maybe Double think will be interested in THIS article



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/14/2008 10:37:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freakofnature
None of which humans had anything to do with?

Humans weren't around. Neither was industrial pollution or human deforestation.

The fallacy in your thinking goes like this:
a did not cause b to happen before; therefore, a cannot cause b.
Why should we conclude this?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruthie
Sorry, I missed that link the first time, dblthnk. I will read it. Thank you for clearing things up.

You are welcome.

quote:

I also found out what an astronautical engineer is : Astronautics, or Astronautical Engineering, is the branch of engineering that deals with machines designed to exit or work entirely beyond the Earth's atmosphere. In other words, it is the science and technology of space flight.

Thank you: good job ferreting that one out.
Yet another engineer to the rescue against global warming?

quote:

So this guy works for the space industry. I guess that doesn't really qualify him as an expert on climatology, does it?

Not in climatology, no. But his experience in geophysics could be useful.

quote:

I'm not satisfied with either side of the argument, so far. . . Still looking, still studying...

Not a bad place to be. Skepticism is not necessarily a bad thing. It means you need more evidence before you draw any conclusions.



freakofnature -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/14/2008 10:43:36 AM)

Here are a couple of interesting reports to read:

1) http://www.ecd.bnl.gov/steve/pubs/HeatCapacity.pdf

2) http://heartland.temp.siteexecutive.com/pdf/22835.pdf

Once again, I will bow out of this conversation and let you all have at it again.



freakofnature -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/14/2008 10:44:57 AM)

quote:

Humans weren't around. Neither was industrial pollution or human deforestation


It goes to the fact that we can not controll the earth period.



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