RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but praised in the Bible?
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/2/2008 5:23:18 PM
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Wild-Rose
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quote:
It would be like me taking a particularly violent passage of scripture like let’s say Elijah's execution of another religions followers (Baal’s prophet’s) and painting the whole Bible as brutal intolerance without reading the sections about grace, forgiveness and mercy. Context is what I’m talking about I suppose.
No, it is not the same at all. God is good and holy and just. If he tells people to do something and they do it, that is GOOD. You are arguing that the prophets acted in an evil manner. If they obey God, that was a GOOD thing, not evil. God had to do away with idol worship because it is evil.
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Wild-Rose
Rejoice that your name is written in heaven. Luke 10:20
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/2/2008 6:44:04 PM
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StephenJ
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No I'm not saying that I believe in the Quran as much as I believe in the Bible. I'm a Christian I believe Jesus was the Christ not just a human prophet. I'm just saying that I don't think people in many Christian circles are being fair.
It just seems to me that some Christian people frame it like.
In regards to violent verses in the Qu'ran: "Look they're all violant savages who don't deserve our pity or mercy, bomb and discriminate away."
In regards to violent verses in the Bible: "We'll they're justified."
Let me put it this way, if a secular atheist were to take a few verses out of the Bible (like say something from Judges or Joshua) and basically in broad brush strokes say that it was only about violence and intolerance we'd be up in arms. Infact some secularist have done this in regards to the Bible. We'd say we're being unfairly characterized, and I think we'd probably be right to.
But on the other hand we're willing to do the same thing to Muslims, and not really see it as being unfair. What if they were to answer "well God justified it?"
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/2/2008 7:17:07 PM
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Wild-Rose
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quote:
In regards to violent verses in the Qu'ran: "Look they're all violant savages who don't deserve our pity or mercy, bomb and discriminate away."
In regards to violent verses in the Bible: "We'll they're justified."
The difference is that we view those verses in the Bible as history. We do not threaten to kill people if they do not convert. We do not view all Muslims as violent, but certainly there are a small percentage who are (now, today, not just in history).
Recently in this forum we were talking to a Muslim fellow. The thread was deleted, so I'm sorry I can't point you to it. His main argument was that Jesus was a prophet who was sent to the Jews and he did not believe that Jesus was sent to the gentiles. We showed him many Bible verses and proof from the Bible that Jesus was sent to the Jews and the gentiles both. We need to pray that their eyes will be open to the truth. I believe they are very misled. They say they read the Old testament and the new testament but he did not know any of the stories that we wee talking about.
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Wild-Rose
Rejoice that your name is written in heaven. Luke 10:20
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/2/2008 7:55:52 PM
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StephenJ
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Oh thank you and God bless you for that post, I think that's pretty close to what our attitude should be towards Muslims. In my witnessing to Muslim's I've tried to be even handed and keep the emphasis on our doctrinal diffrences (the trinity,deity of Christ, salvation the grace not works etc.) But what I've seen with some Christian ministers (especially outlets like the 700 club) is a kind of "your holy book is just violent, and savage and we shouldn't feel bad about bombing predominantly Muslim countries, or discriminating against you" idealogy. Or a sort, "you're just violent savages, and the only people we should care about in the Middle East are people in Israel" way of thinking. It concerns me.
I'm just talking about fairness here basically.
Good point about history.
And actually I have heard Christian people bring out Leviticus in refrence to the current debate with homosexuality. In addition there's also the point I made about Orthodox Jews who would accept a book like Leviticus or Numbers, but wouldn't beleive in the N.T. I can't think of anyone calling Orthodox Jews violent and bloodthirsty. So I don't think the O.T is entierly history in the minds of many.
< Message edited by StephenJ -- 5/2/2008 8:06:40 PM >
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/2/2008 8:18:50 PM
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Wild-Rose
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quote:
Oh thank you and God bless you for that post, I think that's pretty close to what our attitude should be towards Muslims.
God bless you also. God is working on me, teaching me to be more compassionate. I know I say things in a blunt manner, but God is teaching me to slow down, and say things with a little more love in my tone of voice.
With regards to homosexuality, you must understand the concept of the old covenant and the new covenant. Many things in the OT are passed away. Jesus changed many things. But homosexuality is mentioned in the NT also and that did not change. God does not approve. That was one law that did not change.
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Wild-Rose
Rejoice that your name is written in heaven. Luke 10:20
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/2/2008 8:24:49 PM
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Wild-Rose
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quote:
Judges or Joshua) and basically in broad brush strokes say that it was only about violence and intolerance we'd be up in arms.
I would have to disagree with this. We do NOT get up in arms when someone mocks us. There was the "artwork" of Jesus in urine. There is the DaVinci code that is blasphemy, (in my opinion). People disrespect the Bible all the time. I know that "up in arms" is a figure of speech and maybe you didn't mean it literally. The Muslims go nuts because of a cartoon. There is a huge difference.
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Wild-Rose
Rejoice that your name is written in heaven. Luke 10:20
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/2/2008 11:45:16 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
The Muslims go nuts because of a cartoon. There is a huge difference.
We can nitpick the reasons why people do things. Jesus said many would come in His Name, He did not say that they would be from Him. When looking at Christian history after the Bible, we see many things done wrong in His Name. you must follow Jesus Christ. Become a slave unto Him. then you will be free.
The wars we are fighting, the saying they are from G-D, I can't find that.
not in my Bible. I believe satan our enemy is preparing for war.
the enemy uses false religions, drugs, murder, just remember they are just guns, bombs, warfare.
Steph,
I think you are looking for an answer to all the unfairness, and hypocrisy you see.
Jesus Christ, it was not fair that He died such a cruel death, if we look at it in worldly eyes, but the REWARD is in Heaven, it cannot be found here.
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1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/3/2008 12:39:45 PM
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timf
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And I don't see what's really accomplished with the "Their wrong, we're right, deal with it" mindset that some people seem to be advocating. A Muslim person would say the same thing. I think we have to move beyond that honestly?
Jesus and the Bible are truth. Islam always seems to try to say that differences do not matter until they have the military strength to kill those who disagree with them. Then it seems to matter.
The Koran and the Bible cannot both be true. You will find you have to pick one.
Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/3/2008 1:03:13 PM
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Wild-Rose
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Tim, I think you misunderstand Stephan just as I misunderstood when I first read this thread. He knows that the Bible is true. His real question is how do you say that to a Muslim? You can't just say "we're right, you're wrong" You have to explain it with more gentleness, more compassion, more love and you have to be able to teach the facts. For example showing how the prophesies are true concerning Jesus. Also teaching how Jesus came for the Jews and the gentiles (not just the Jews, as they are taught).
That's part of Stephan's concern, if I understand him correctly. His other concern is about discrimination and fair treatment of Muslims. I agree that is a valid concern. As Christians we have to try to reach people with love, not hostility.
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Wild-Rose
Rejoice that your name is written in heaven. Luke 10:20
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/4/2008 2:48:30 AM
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Annie64
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I agree with what Wild Rose said about the OP's question, but there seemed to be more to it than that. There are violent passages in the Bible. I think he was also asking why that is the case--what made it good for Joshua to wipe out all those people. How could God command such a thing? How is that better than the violence in the Quran? Of course it is better, but how? That's a hard question to which there isn't an easy answer. I don't think he was holding the Bible and the Quran equal, but in order to answer the question he asked, you do have to place them side by side for comparison. The times that God commanded violence, all of which are in the Old Testament, were always specific situations. Nowhere is there a general command to any violent act. (Okay, I just thought of an exception to that, and it's in the New Testament. In Romans it says that governments "bear the sword" to punish evildoers, and this is of God. But even this is sort of a general statment of the way things are, rather than a command.) The question is, is the way violence is presented in the Quran the same or different? If its different, how? To say "Because the Bible is true and the Quran is a lie" is true, but it isn't going to convince anybody who didn't already believe that to start with. Colliefan said that it would take a Christian scholar who also know the Islamic faith backward and forward to be able to answer that, and she is right. I don't know the answer, but I don't believe that I don't know it because there isn't one, or certainly not because there isn't a difference. People exist who would be able to explain this. Maybe one of them will visit CW forums someday. 
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ALL other ground is sinking sand.
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/4/2008 2:59:42 AM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Annie64
I agree with what Wild Rose said about the OP's question, but there seemed to be more to it than that. There are violent passages in the Bible. I think he was also asking why that is the case--what made it good for Joshua to wipe out all those people. How could God command such a thing? How is that better than the violence in the Quran? Of course it is better, but how? That's a hard question to which there isn't an easy answer. I don't think he was holding the Bible and the Quran equal, but in order to answer the question he asked, you do have to place them side by side for comparison. The times that God commanded violence, all of which are in the Old Testament, were always specific situations. Nowhere is there a general command to any violent act. (Okay, I just thought of an exception to that, and it's in the New Testament. In Romans it says that governments "bear the sword" to punish evildoers, and this is of God. But even this is sort of a general statment of the way things are, rather than a command.) The question is, is the way violence is presented in the Quran the same or different? If its different, how? To say "Because the Bible is true and the Quran is a lie" is true, but it isn't going to convince anybody who didn't already believe that to start with. Colliefan said that it would take a Christian scholar who also know the Islamic faith backward and forward to be able to answer that, and she is right. I don't know the answer, but I don't believe that I don't know it because there isn't one, or certainly not because there isn't a difference. People exist who would be able to explain this. Maybe one of them will visit CW forums someday.
Actually you pretty much nailed what I was trying to convey. Though again there are many devoted Muslims who don't interpret the Jihad of the sword to mean attack anyone who isn't a Muslim. They'd say that there are specific circumstances when you are to take up arms.
But as far as talking to Muslims, I don't think saying "I'm right your wrong that's it" really works. I mean what if they say "well I can't look at the Gospels and the Quran side by side because the teachings of Jesus have been mistranslated" (which many Muslims believe.) Then we're kind of just in a position of standing around, plugging our ears because we're both so sure of our rightness.
Anyway, like I said I'm not a Muslim myself but I think these are questions worth bringing up.
< Message edited by StephenJ -- 5/4/2008 3:20:36 AM >
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/4/2008 8:51:39 PM
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colliefan
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Judt as we must develop peaceful relationships with the Muslims we ecounter in our daily lives; as a nation we must develop peaceful relations with moderate Islamic nations,
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The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/4/2008 10:35:30 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2938
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Annie64
I agree with what Wild Rose said about the OP's question, but there seemed to be more to it than that. There are violent passages in the Bible. I think he was also asking why that is the case--what made it good for Joshua to wipe out all those people. How could God command such a thing? How is that better than the violence in the Quran? Of course it is better, but how? That's a hard question to which there isn't an easy answer. I don't think he was holding the Bible and the Quran equal, but in order to answer the question he asked, you do have to place them side by side for comparison. The times that God commanded violence, all of which are in the Old Testament, were always specific situations. Nowhere is there a general command to any violent act. (Okay, I just thought of an exception to that, and it's in the New Testament. In Romans it says that governments "bear the sword" to punish evildoers, and this is of God. But even this is sort of a general statment of the way things are, rather than a command.) The question is, is the way violence is presented in the Quran the same or different? If its different, how? To say "Because the Bible is true and the Quran is a lie" is true, but it isn't going to convince anybody who didn't already believe that to start with. Colliefan said that it would take a Christian scholar who also know the Islamic faith backward and forward to be able to answer that, and she is right. I don't know the answer, but I don't believe that I don't know it because there isn't one, or certainly not because there isn't a difference. People exist who would be able to explain this. Maybe one of them will visit CW forums someday.
It's a command, God ordained the civil for that very purpose... The thieves on the crosses with Christ were justly receiving their due reward...
Romans 13
1. Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4. For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
John
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/5/2008 4:38:48 PM
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Bluethread
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I believe, Paul is talking about religious authorities in Roman's 13, echoing what Yeshua(Jesus) said.
(Matthew 23:1-3)
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."
In Yeshua and Paul's day the Sanhedrin(Jewish High Council) had authority to impose penalties, within ncertain limitations, for violations of Torah.
The reason I say this is that Hitler used interpretation quite effectively in pacifying the Lutherans and others in Germany.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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