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RE: What does it mean to be legalistic? - 5/3/2008 7:49:51 PM
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Ignited-Faith
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I have a question.
Is is usually a person who is a Christian
that will call someone else a Legalist?
When I'd stop doing something (like drinking)
my unsaved friends said I was "on the Jesus bandwagon"
and one day I'd fall off. They'd try to encourage me to drink with them. But, they never said I was a legalist!
On the other hand, when I stopped going to movies
my Christian friends didn't understand why, and I was
called a Legalist.
In both of the cases above, I did NOT tell my friends,
that they should stop doing something too!
Yet, both groups of friends told me I should do what they were doing!
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RE: What does it mean to be legalistic? - 5/3/2008 11:18:29 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I don't know, but I think we all define legalism by our experiences, so most definitions will be different.
I define a legalist as someone who adds to the Scriptures then expects others to live by the added rules.
I go to movies. Certain ones, anyway. And I would hope that Ignited-Faith would not tell me, then, that I am wrong to go to a theater. If Ignited-Faith did, I would suggest that Ignited-Faith is legalistic because there is nnothing in the Bible that says I should not go to the movies I choose to go to.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: What does it mean to be legalistic? - 5/4/2008 6:58:40 AM
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kingdust
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quote:
I did not understand that at all.
If I did understand a part it would be: when we operate from ourselves that is being a gospelist? (never heard that term....)
Being lead by the HS is being a legalist?
You are not obligated to understand, nor do I expect you to do because I said something I don’t quite understand myself.
I just gave you something to think about that is a little different from your conviction of what legalism is.
However, not to understand and not to get it right are two different things.
You should get it this way; when we operate from our-old-selves that is being a legalist.
Being lead by the HS is being a gospelist.
If you got it that way, you could have a thought that sounded not too abnorm.
Surely you have never heard of the word ‘gospelist’, because I just made it new yesterday in order to have a name opposite to legalist.
But, if you knew how ‘legal’ became ‘legalist’, lawful to lawful person, you would have no hard time to get to know ‘gospelist’, the Good News bearers.
By the way, when I say, ‘lawful’, instead of ‘legal’, I think I can get a better grip on the term ‘legalist’ who thinks like a lawyer, seeing things in the legal point of view, right or wrong judgment to hand out sentence, judgmental, if you will.
Don’t you think our old self is an expert in that area?
We are quick to judge right or wrong and hit on the wrong without mercy.
If you picture the good old self as a being under the law, you can understand its judgmental attitude and behavior without too much thinking.
The good old self is good at seeing others in wrong, but not good at seeing wrong self.
‘Gospelist’ on the other side is good at seeing sinners as a subject to love, not to judge.
Not that he/she doesn’t know what is right or wrong at the face value or seemingly, but goes beyond a simple right or wrong verdict which is final for a legal expert.
quote:
What a huge misnomer, to think that we will always be lead by the HS. Where is the freewill in that? I will make choices that do not reflect the HS living in me. Not a fact that I like and certainly not that I can't make that choice as well. See what I mean?
You can find the free will in union with the will of the HS.
If you can’t have your free will in line with the will of HS, you will have discord with Him and going together in step is not possible.
How can two live together without stepping together in agreement?
However, our good old self loves to go ‘my way’, dragging HS behind.
quote:
I have the choice to follow what God says in His word or ignore it. By choosing to follow it doesn't mean that I am gaining any extra points with God, nor am I climbing a ladder to get higher than any one else. I do it because I love Him and have learned that life is a whole lot less painful following His ways verses living life by me ways. To be honest, I don't care if people call me a legalist. It does not hurt my feelings or offend me. I guess what it really must mean is that I am doing something right. How could it be wrong if we are being obedient?
You have a good point here; love base action.
If you do things because you love God, you are a gospelist.
If you do things because you are commanded to do so, as laws, you are a legalist, IMO.
By the same token, if you tell other people not to do certain things just because it is wrong, factually or IMO, not because of love motivation, you can be called a legalist being good at laws and full of laws.
Being legalist good at judging right or wrong is NOT a bad quality at all.
We all should judge right, good and fair- that is what makes a good life possible on earth.
However, as Gospel bearers, we should go beyond what is right or wrong- mercy and grace where we claim to belong according to the Gospel.
Don’t we say we are not under the law but under the grace?
Under grace, we can receive and dispense grace, not a sentence of right or wrong.
Can you see the difference I pictured between legalist and gospelist?
_____________________________
Warning!
This is my unique way of thinking.
No judging or offending is intended.
If feeling offended, tell me like it is, so I can avoid counter-misunderstanding.
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RE: What does it mean to be legalistic? - 5/4/2008 7:19:40 AM
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BibleL7
Posts: 412
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I would say you have it right that it is likely that when faced with confrontation of ones own sin they will call the other person legalistic. Usually I more get the quote of Do not judge, lest you be judged. Though there has been a time I was called legalistic on that. Yes being legalistic has different meanings to different people.
Short and simple of the actual meaning is being legalistic is when you say one needs to follow certain rules of law to be saved or get right with God or receive blessings from Him. We are to follow the commandments of Jesus. This is how we show we love Him. Many will say if we follow rules we are being legalistic however that is not true. Only when we say that certain rules aid in salvation or getting closer to God is it truly legalistic. And of course we do tend to add human rules and call breaking them sin which are not in Scripture. This can also come from taking Scriptures out of context.
We know that faith in Jesus and acceptance of His paying our debt is what saves us and not following a set of laws. Yet we also know in showing Him love we will obey His laws out of love wanting to not because we have to. And as for those added rules that are not His that also should be choice and out of love if we decide to follow them or not if it is not out of love then one could say it is legalistic. Just opinion and I don't mind if people disagree. But if things are done out of any other reason than love it profits us nothing. Don't know if this helps but is what I felt would answer your questions.
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RE: What does it mean to be legalistic? - 5/4/2008 10:32:25 AM
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kingdust
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I created this thread because I have seen people on here throw this term around when their way of thinking is not conformed to. It seems to be the instantaneous reaction when disagreement arises. So thank you all for your contributions. It is my hope that we will all recognize ourselves as being "legalistic" to a certain degree based upon how our beliefs differ from others. Did that make a bit of sense to anyone? 
I don’t think different beliefs have anything to do with legalism.
Since legalism is something to do with strict conformity to the law, according to Mr. Merriam, the matter of right or wrong according to the law is more like the core of legalism to me.
Right or wrong, good or bad, that is the first thing comes to our legal mind when we do evaluate things, actions or situations, Christians or none-Christians.
Because, if we don’t do right, woe is on us suffering the consequences.
(Thinking of beliefs being evaluated either right or wrong, I should take my word back and say, ‘sure, different beliefs can be evaluated in a legal sense, making it a legal matter’.)
When it comes to right or wrong, there has got to be the right standard that can weigh the matter correctly.
If we have the standard settings agreed by us all, we should have no problem to agree what is right or wrong, unless differed in interpretation.
If we have different settings, then, we have problems.
That is normal and natural procedure in our daily life.
Being legal and right is good for everybody except the lawbreakers.
How can you do right if you don’t judge right?
How can you be safe if I do wrong to you?
However, as Christians under grace, being legalistic is no good, because the lack of mercy and grace with the legalist whom we are saved from.
(If you are a true legalist, you must not believe in forgiveness, either given or received.)
Again, having the good old self still living and kicking, no Christian is free from being legalistic at any given moment, when I am being good old me or I am not in step with HS.
Have you notice that the thread of drinking water in church service got hit by many thousand visitors?
Is it right to drink?
Is it wrong to be bothered by that?
Discussing right or wrong is not a legalistic bad behavior, but giving the final sentence without mercy and grace is, because we owe one, IMO.
Surely, daily, if not moment by moment, we struggle with the legalism or legalistic attitude embedded in us- that I know and acknowledge.
< Message edited by kingdust -- 5/4/2008 11:37:48 AM >
_____________________________
Warning!
This is my unique way of thinking.
No judging or offending is intended.
If feeling offended, tell me like it is, so I can avoid counter-misunderstanding.
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RE: What does it mean to be legalistic? - 5/4/2008 10:53:51 AM
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BibleBased
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Whenever i have been called 'legalistic', i have asked people to obey the Word the God and not teach against it. The reply i get is that the Holy Spirit now rules and gives all the answers direct and many of those answers contradict, rewrite the bible. What these christians don't understand is that the Holy Spirit - Jesus - & the father are all the 1 God. God doesn't change his mind.
So my experience directly of the term 'legalistic' is from people who want to disobey the bible and have a pick and mix faith - not my true biblical christian faith.
However i am well aware how salvation is gained through grace - but like the previous poster, i want to daily follow God's way of doing things - not mine or satan's! Love BibleBased.
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RE: What does it mean to be legalistic? - 5/4/2008 2:44:13 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
I guess I would have to also disagree with you. I believe that salvation is of the L-rd, and what one needs to do to have salvation is clearly defined in His Word. I do not believe that salvation is gained in any way other than through Him: it cannot be earned by what I (or anyone else) do. I believe, then, that I am not legalistic.
Now, some say that I am legalistic because I believe and hold to the whole Bible. Okay. That is their opinion! But they are wrong. Following the whole Word does not make one legalistic, unless one plans on also claiming that our L-rd was legalistic, too, because He said clearly that He came to do the Father's will and that not one jot nor tittle of that Word will pass away until the whole of heaven and earth pass away. That hasn't happened yet!!
We don't disagree, in fact we are very much in agreement. I find that people who choose to pick and choose what they want to hear rather than what IS being said in the Bible call those who do believe what the Bible says are legalistic. This is what I meant by saying different interpretations. When Jesus says, "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is near", some people will say that He was only talking to a select group of people while others will say that He was speaking to all people. Those who don't believe in repentance choose the first option, those who believe repentance is necessary believe the second option. Those choosers of number one will call the second group legalistic because they don't want to hear the second option. Did I clear this up even a little?
As second example is those who believe that we should confront sin within the body for accountability reasons (and so many more reasons) are considered legalistic because we believe there is certain amount of responsibility we hold as Christians. This too is considered legalistic. I have often wondered where people get this idea from. If the Bible says it, how does that make us judgmental or condemning? Sounds to me like they were much happier to continue ignoring God's Word and would rather deflect the conversation to the confronter.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: What does it mean to be legalistic? - 5/4/2008 7:43:35 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3664
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From: my mom by God
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Legalism....rules without love.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: What does it mean to be legalistic? - 5/4/2008 7:52:52 PM
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crh737
Posts: 592
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My personal opinion on legalism, is a fe things.
When one is convicted by the Holy Spirit, yet try to make it a law or rule for another.
When one state you can only be saved by a particular bible
When churches add to what God meant for the believer
When a church or believer try to oppress another through condemnation of what *they* believe to be correct by God
See your sin but do not acknowledge their own
Oh and the list goes.......
Unfortunately I have experienced this type of behavior and it certainly is not Christ like
CRH
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RE: What does it mean to be legalistic? - 5/4/2008 8:11:17 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 2641
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
We don't disagree, in fact we are very much in agreement....
I have never called anyone here legalistic, but I have called people of my old church legalistic, because they add rules to the Bible then say they have the right to do that just as a club has rules for membership. Pretty silly, in my opinion, that the clay makes up rules for the Potter, dontcha think? Ludicrous!
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: What does it mean to be legalistic? - 5/5/2008 5:05:54 AM
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BibleL7
Posts: 412
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Covaan_Meshuga I must say you have put it so well and if they wish to compare themselves to a club perhaps that is what they actually are and not a church of Jesus Christ. Of course I will probably be called judgemental on this but then I am also called a Fundy and closed minded for I believe we should follow the commandments of our Lord as He told us to. Of course I have been known to say either we believe the Bible is God's Word or we don't.
Lord Bless
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RE: What does it mean to be legalistic? - 5/5/2008 5:59:25 AM
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BibleBased
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One of the times i was called 'legalistic' on another christian site was over divorce - which i have begun discussing on another topic on this site. I stated God's biblical position on divorce and was told the Holy Spirit had shown a person the bible was wrong. But as i say we have 1 God and he does not change from eternity to eternity.
If it is 'legalistic' to, when asked, state the bible position on something - like divorce - i am happy to be known by this term. We all sin/ fail our Lord every day in many ways. Love must be shown to all believers even when they sin, like we all do. But what we must NEVER do is say that the bible/ God is wrong. Which is why in my experience people call bible followers 'legalistic' or 'pharisees.' Come to me my yoke is easy our Lord says. It is easy IF we follow his way of doing things, which through his Love he has revealed to us. God bless, BibleBased.
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RE: What does it mean to be legalistic? - 5/5/2008 9:05:43 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 548
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I created this thread because I have seen people on here throw this term around when their way of thinking is not conformed to. It seems to be the instantaneous reaction when disagreement arises. So thank you all for your contributions. It is my hope that we will all recognize ourselves as being "legalistic" to a certain degree based upon how our beliefs differ from others. Did that make a bit of sense to anyone?
DD, the underlying thought behind legalism is the belief that there is something we can do to make ourselves acceptable to God. Legalism is opposed to Gods Grace.
Grace is God doing for us that which we could not do for ourselves. Grace is God making man acceptable to Himself.
Any time we try to insert ourselves into the equation, anytime we fall back into thinking there is something we need to do to stay in Gods Grace, we have placed ourselves back under The Law, and made Grace of no effect.
We are not made acceptable to God through self-effort, we are made acceptable by accepting and believing in the finished work of Christ, who then leads us through His indwelling Spirit.
Peace
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: What does it mean to be legalistic? - 5/5/2008 10:27:05 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 803
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I don't find obedience to His Word legalistic at all. I don't find that adhering to His Word makes us unacceptable either. Obedience is not us trying to make ourselves acceptable to Him. We do it out of our desire to please Him because we love Him. Denying this is to deny His Word. Any way you want to slice it, He requires obedience from us.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: What does it mean to be legalistic? - 5/5/2008 11:16:54 AM
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kingdust
Posts: 485
Joined: 3/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I don't find obedience to His Word legalistic at all. I don't find that adhering to His Word makes us unacceptable either. Obedience is not us trying to make ourselves acceptable to Him. We do it out of our desire to please Him because we love Him. Denying this is to deny His Word. Any way you want to slice it, He requires obedience from us.
I don't think you can even obey God without grace from God to begin with.
If you can, then, you surely can obey all of His commandments and be right with God by self effort.
I can see the subtle difference between 'I obey God' and 'I obey God though His grace'.
The former sounded like 'self effort' under the law and the later, 'by grace'.
The line between the two is too thin to distinguish easily and obviously.
We cross the line like the alternate current without realizing the line crossed.
Since we all have failed to obey at least once or twice, disqualified to be under the law, as the law-breakers, we can have only hope to be under grace.
If I am under grace, I should see others through the graceful eyes, not legalistic eyes which can easily see the wrong according to the law, the letter that kills.
I think that, because we claim to be under grace, for us having legalistic view or being legalistic, lawful mind if you will, is wrong, which is otherwise totally normal and natural for people who have only the law to live by, only being under the law.
Under law or grace, that should be the factor to decide what is legalistic, IMO.
_____________________________
Warning!
This is my unique way of thinking.
No judging or offending is intended.
If feeling offended, tell me like it is, so I can avoid counter-misunderstanding.
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RE: What does it mean to be legalistic? - 5/5/2008 11:38:08 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 2641
Joined: 6/8/2005
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There is a HUGE difference between obeying G-d beause we love Him and want to give of our best to Him and trying to be good in order to earn a salvation.
The first is the ordinary response of one who has been given salvation. The second is an attempt to create one's own salvation. The first works, because it follows salvation and is done by the grace of G-d, as it has been from the beginning of time; the second has never worked from the beginning of time, because it leaves G-d out of the equation.
Grace did not suddenly appear for the first time upon either the birth or death of Messiah, just as the Holy Spirit did not suddenly appear for the first time upon the Acts day of Pentecost or Shavuot. Both were always there and were always at work, just as true salvation was always there.
Getting down the the bottom line biblically, without my own modern definition stated earlier, the original legalistic ones of the Bible were those who obeyed all the rules, or who obeyed all the rules plus the added rules, but did so without faith. These were decried through the Bible, especially in Isaiah.
As it has always been, it is not enough to do all the dos, unless the grace of G-d is in the doing.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: What does it mean to be legalistic? - 5/5/2008 12:09:54 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 548
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I don't find obedience to His Word legalistic at all. I don't find that adhering to His Word makes us unacceptable either. Obedience is not us trying to make ourselves acceptable to Him. We do it out of our desire to please Him because we love Him. Denying this is to deny His Word. Any way you want to slice it, He requires obedience from us.
...and Scripturally speaking, what is your act of obedience?
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: What does it mean to be legalistic? - 5/5/2008 1:40:56 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 548
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
It would be acts of obedience...
Loving the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.
Loving your neighbor as yourself.
Flip open your Bible, you can find the rest...... 
Yes.
Luke 10:26-28
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself."
"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
But...that Love he speaks of is Agape Love...Gods Love. You are not God, so how can you Agape Love someone?
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: What does it mean to be legalistic? - 5/5/2008 1:46:53 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 803
Status: offline
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You are really hunting and pecking now.........
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: What does it mean to be legalistic? - 5/5/2008 1:49:04 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 548
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
You are really hunting and pecking now.........
Hunting and pecking? This is the truth that can set you free.
Do you want to be free?
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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