RE: Be Holy? (Full Version)

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bob97 -> RE: Be Holy? (5/6/2008 12:22:30 AM)

Dennis,

quote:

When I read the book of Hebrews I can only glean that the New Covenant was ushered in at the death of Christ.


That is true but the New Covenant is not bound by time, as I stated before, "The lamb slain before the foundation of the world". Christ being slain from the foundation of the world illustrates not only that He was foreordained to be slain, but also that the efficacy, or the beneficial effects of that death, is the same as if that sacrifice had been made before the creation of the world. Thus, Old Testament saints are washed clean in Christ's blood the same as we are today. In other words, the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice is not limited by time.

quote:

Was the New Covenant only to Israel? Why then does Paul say:2 Corinthians 3:6 ¶ He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant— not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was,
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?


The new covenant is for all that the Spirit has written God’s laws into their hearts, all who will come to Christ.

quote:

He does say "letters on stone". I can only see that as meaning the Old Testament or the Law.
Was Corinthians only written to Israel?


Paul is only showing the differences between the Old Covenant and the New, one leads to death and the other to life.

quote:

To have God's laws written in our heart means we have the mind of Christ. The laws are the laws of love. They fulfull the entire Law.


We know in our hearts the law but we still live in the body of flesh, that is our limiting factor. The New Covenant does bring life whereas the Old Covenant brought only death;

2Co 3:14 But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ.

Bob



rcjames -> RE: Be Holy? (5/6/2008 10:21:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dennis2
quote:

Dennis, are you saying that sin committed after salvation has no effect on our relationship with Christ or our future relsationship (Heaven)?

RC If He is not counting our sins against us as His word says then that must be true. However with His resurected life living in us we will not be wanting to live in sin.
quote:

Just sin away, enjoy the sin, it does not matter to God? Or am I not reading your post correctly?

RC I never said this, you did. God wants to renew our minds. Love ya,
Dennis.


But that is what you and others on this thread are saying by claiming that; any sin you do tomorrow or in the future is already forgiven automatically God will not see it nor hold it against the person. With some folks here saying the igoring and forgiveness of sins do not require the sinner confessin, repenting, remorse, or seeking God's forgiveness for the transgression.

That my friend is making provision for the devil and sin.

(Eph 4:27) Neither give place to the devil.

It is OSAS run amuck.

Again I say by following through what some of those on this thread are saying; a Christian could be committing adultery, shooting up dope, lying to his wife on the phone, and lusting after something on the TV, die: and automatically wake up in the welcoming arms of Jesus.

I say God will not look on a mess such as that and say, "Well done my good and faithful servant"

I refer you to the Book of First John Chapter 3, and would declare that the person committing adultery was spoken of there;

(1Jn 3:8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

(1Jn 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

(1Jn 3:10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Anyone walking (continuing) is sin is in deep caca with the Father.

Now is there a provision for someone IF they sin after salvation; yes.

(1Jn 1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

(1Jn 2:1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Pleae not that this verse says IF not when we sin, but if we sin.

Peter in the first sermon of the CHurch era gave the instructions for salvation;

(Act 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Please note the "Repent" part, repent means to turn from not continue in. for if someone does not repent and continues in sin then as John says they are not children of God.

The real danger in my thinking concerning this OSAS run amuck is that folks seeking the Faith are told that continued sin has no effect on their relationship with God. And that is a lie right out of the pits of hell and puts those folks in nery much danger of Matt 7 where Christ says;

(Mat 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Can a Christian sin? yes. Are they a Christian if they walk (continue) in sin; John and I say a definate no.

Thanks
RC



drmark -> RE: Be Holy? (5/6/2008 10:48:25 AM)

quote:

I'm sorry, Mark, but it isn't an interpretation -- it is clearly written in the Scriptures. If Wesleyan/Holiness theologians are teaching otherwise, they are ignoring the clearly-written Scripture that these verses are written of Israel, and Israel is named directly in them!
It is also clearly written in the Scriptures "that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." (Gal 3:7-9). This passage tells me that the prophecy in Jeremiah applies to justified Gentiles today (that's me) as well as the nation of Israel in the future. I believe that is called historicism and futurism in the understanding of Biblical prophecy.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Be Holy? (5/6/2008 11:11:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus
Hey guys,
You are having a somewhat intersting discussion, but how are you connecting this in to being holy and what it means to be holy?

Dennis2 had mentioned on this thread that the new covenant was part of his understanding of the state of holiness, as did Drmark, although I cannot find that post anymore. Perhaps it was erased or he wrote that on another thread? There are other threads open at this time that are discussing this Scripture.
__________________________________


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dennis2
The so called Lord's prayer was under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant was ushered in after the death of Christ, the Testator.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
When? The Bible only mentions the new covenant in relation to Israel, when it says that Israel will have the Torah written on their hearts. That has not happened yet. Those who have been called to place their trust in Messiah and have done so certainly have the new covenant written upon their hearts, as they have from Abel, but this does not mean that the new covenant, as mentioned in Jeremiah and Hebrews, has been ushered in according to those Scriptures....


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dennis2
When I read the book of Hebrews I can only glean that the New Covenant was ushered in at the death of Christ.
Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!15 ¶ For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance— now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it,
17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.


Bob97 answered this when he wrote:
quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97
That is true but the New Covenant is not bound by time, as I stated before, "The lamb slain before the foundation of the world". Christ being slain from the foundation of the world illustrates not only that He was foreordained to be slain, but also that the efficacy, or the beneficial effects of that death, is the same as if that sacrifice had been made before the creation of the world. Thus, Old Testament saints are washed clean in Christ's blood the same as we are today. In other words, the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice is not limited by time.

The faith chapter of Hebrews is solid proof of the ancients who were holy before G-d. They had salvation then as much as we have it today. They lived by faith in our Messiah then as much as we do today.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dennis2
Was the New Covenant only to Israel? Why then does Paul say:2 Corinthians 3:6 ¶ He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant— not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was,
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

He does say "letters on stone". I can only see that as meaning the Old Testament or the Law.
Was Corinthians only written to Israel?

The new covenant was only to Israel. There was no covenant written by G-d to any other nation. You must ask yourself, "Who is Israel?" Israel is first a nation, but it is a nation which, from its birth, accepted people from other nations who were willing to love its G-d -- and by "love its G-d," I intend to serve and obey Him fully.

So how can Gentiles be saved? In the Apostolic Scriptures, the olive tree has branches from the wild olive grafted in. This Scripture says that we must not disdain the olive tree into which we are grafted. The G-d who ordained the life-flow that comes from the olive tree is the G-d of those grafted in.

This does not mean that Gentiles become Jews. Everyone is born as G-d intended, and it is pretty silly to try to be what we are not. It simply means that we are grafted into Israel through the H Spirit of G-d, by His decree, so that we can be covered by the same covering as is Israel.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dennis2
To have God's laws written in our heart means we have the mind of Christ. The laws are the laws of love. They fulfull the entire Law.
We are taught by the Spirit and He would never teach us contrary to the Law.

I cannot express how greatly I believe this. What is G-d's Law (which I would call Torah, because it does not mean merely Law but Teaching)? The Torah of G-d is listed and explained in the first five books of the Bible, then expounded in the rest of our Bible. He said, and it is written in the latter part of Deuteronomy, that His Torah is not too hard for us. I am glad to read that you understand that His Torah is The Torah of love, that points continuously, as it always has, to Messiah, Who makes us holy.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Be Holy? (5/6/2008 11:15:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:

I'm sorry, Mark, but it isn't an interpretation -- it is clearly written in the Scriptures. If Wesleyan/Holiness theologians are teaching otherwise, they are ignoring the clearly-written Scripture that these verses are written of Israel, and Israel is named directly in them!
It is also clearly written in the Scriptures "that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." (Gal 3:7-9). This passage tells me that the prophecy in Jeremiah applies to justified Gentiles today (that's me) as well as the nation of Israel in the future. I believe that is called historicism and futurism in the understanding of Biblical prophecy.

Absolutely! Absolutely!!

But we were writing at the same time. I answered this in my last post above.

My contention is with those who remove Israel from G-d's picture and try to take over the promises made to Israel, leaving Israel out of the picture as though Israel does not count. We are grafted into Israel, or we have no such promise.



Dennis2 -> RE: Be Holy? (5/6/2008 12:26:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

Dennis,

quote:

When I read the book of Hebrews I can only glean that the New Covenant was ushered in at the death of Christ.


That is true but the New Covenant is not bound by time, as I stated before, "The lamb slain before the foundation of the world". Christ being slain from the foundation of the world illustrates not only that He was foreordained to be slain, but also that the efficacy, or the beneficial effects of that death, is the same as if that sacrifice had been made before the creation of the world. Thus, Old Testament saints are washed clean in Christ's blood the same as we are today. In other words, the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice is not limited by time.

I certainly agree with this Bob. I see the blood shed on the cross taking away sins for all time back to Adam and forward to eternity.

quote:

Was the New Covenant only to Israel? Why then does Paul say:2 Corinthians 3:6 ¶ He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant— not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was,
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?


The new covenant is for all that the Spirit has written God’s laws into their hearts, all who will come to Christ.

Amen.

quote:

He does say "letters on stone". I can only see that as meaning the Old Testament or the Law.
Was Corinthians only written to Israel?


Paul is only showing the differences between the Old Covenant and the New, one leads to death and the other to life.

I agree. The Old Covenant shows the lost they are sinners and dead. It leads one to Christ and resurrected life which is salvation. We are then called saints and declared holy.

quote:

To have God's laws written in our heart means we have the mind of Christ. The laws are the laws of love. They fulfull the entire Law.


We know in our hearts the law but we still live in the body of flesh, that is our limiting factor. The New Covenant does bring life whereas the Old Covenant brought only death;

2Co 3:14 But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ.

Boy do I ever have the flesh still hanging on. What I desire to do I do not do. Thank you Jesus for taking away my sins and renewing my mind to your truth.

Bob


LIC,
Dennis



drmark -> RE: Be Holy? (5/6/2008 12:33:44 PM)

quote:

Dennis2 had mentioned on this thread that the new covenant was part of his understanding of the state of holiness, as did Drmark, although I cannot find that post anymore. Perhaps it was erased or he wrote that on another thread? There are other threads open at this time that are discussing this Scripture.
That's right, Abiyah. I posted on the Jeremiah 31 thread that this passage, quoted in Hebr 8 and 10, is a great Holiness text, supporting the concept of God making us holy by "writing" His laws on our hearts, not merely expecting us to obey from our own meager ability.



Dennis2 -> RE: Be Holy? (5/6/2008 1:41:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dennis2
quote:

Dennis, are you saying that sin committed after salvation has no effect on our relationship with Christ or our future relsationship (Heaven)?

RC If He is not counting our sins against us as His word says then that must be true. However with His resurected life living in us we will not be wanting to live in sin.
quote:

Just sin away, enjoy the sin, it does not matter to God? Or am I not reading your post correctly?

RC I never said this, you did. God wants to renew our minds. Love ya,
Dennis.


But that is what you and others on this thread are saying by claiming that; any sin you do tomorrow or in the future is already forgiven automatically God will not see it nor hold it against the person. With some folks here saying the igoring and forgiveness of sins do not require the sinner confessin, repenting, remorse, or seeking God's forgiveness for the transgression.

That my friend is making provision for the devil and sin.
My friend what you are saying is denying what Christ has done for you.
When did Christ take away your sins? Was it not 2000 years ago?
You seem to have some fear that if I live my life by faith in what Christ has clearly already done that I am of the devil.
There is no fear in the perfect love of God.
Your way of thinking would leave you fearful that if you died right after having a lustful thought and did not have time to ask God to forgive you you would perish.
(Eph 4:27) Neither give place to the devil.

It is OSAS run amuck.
In context the Ephesians passages are:
26 "In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,
27 and do not give the devil a foothold.
28 He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.

This is solid advice. The Holy Spirit reminds me of these passages alot. Especially the one on anger.
Please note that nowhere in here does Paul remind believers that your better confess your sin of stealing in order for God to forgive you. Maybe Paul did not know this. Or, maybe he knew that Christ took all our sins away 2000 years ago.

Again I say by following through what some of those on this thread are saying; a Christian could be committing adultery, shooting up dope, lying to his wife on the phone, and lusting after something on the TV, die: and automatically wake up in the welcoming arms of Jesus.

Did Christ take these sins away or not?

I say God will not look on a mess such as that and say, "Well done my good and faithful servant"

I would not expect to be praised for these types of behavior.
I would not expect to be praised for calling God a liar when He said "It is Finished" No one asked God to forgive them when Jesus cried this from the cross.
I refer you to the Book of First John Chapter 3, and would declare that the person committing adultery was spoken of there;

(1Jn 3:8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

(1Jn 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

(1Jn 3:10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Anyone walking (continuing) is sin is in deep caca with the Father.

You are in deep caca because you are continuing to deny the finality of the cross. Jesus defined the worlds sin as:
John 19:8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt {8 Or <will expose the guilt of the world>} in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;

Now is there a provision for someone IF they sin after salvation; yes.

(1Jn 1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Don't forget 1Jn 1:8 ¶ If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If the truth is not in us we do not belong to Him. If we have the truth we will not loose the truth:
2 John 1:1 ¶ The elder, To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth— and not I only, but also all who know the truth—2 because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

1 John 1:9 is for the whomsoever in verse 8 saying they do not have sin.
I do not know many believers that would honestly say such a thing.

(1Jn 2:1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Pleae not that this verse says IF not when we sin, but if we sin.
Please finish the thought in context: Verse 2 He is the one who turns aside God’s wrath, taking away our sins, and not only ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
You see in verse 1 John is now addressing "My little children". He is now talking to believers and they have the advocate. When the accusor, satan, tries to tell a saint: "look at what you did, if you keep that up you are going to loose your salvation". Jesus says I took that sin away.
Peter in the first sermon of the CHurch era gave the instructions for salvation;

(Act 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Please note the "Repent" part, repent means to turn from not continue in. for if someone does not repent and continues in sin then as John says they are not children of God.
Yes repent is a permanent idea. So if you say you have repented of your sin does that mean that you will never commit that sin again?
Pete is saying repent of your unbelief.
Without the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness. Getting dunked or sprinkled with water cannot take away sins.
My sense of this verse is: Repent from you old belief systems and be babtised or identified with Jesus Christ because of the forgiveness of sins.
It is like taking an asprin for a headache. You take the asprin because you have a headache not to get one.

The real danger in my thinking concerning this OSAS run amuck is that folks seeking the Faith are told that continued sin has no effect on their relationship with God. And that is a lie right out of the pits of hell and puts those folks in nery much danger of Matt 7 where Christ says;

(Mat 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Can a Christian sin? yes. Are they a Christian if they walk (continue) in sin; John and I say a definate no.

If sin is unbelief as Jesus defined it then once one has belived in Christ alone and recieved His resurrected life then that person will not continue in unbelief. The letters of John 1,2,3 were to dispell false teaching of the gnostics who were spreading errors. They have both correction for false beliefs and admonishment and encouragement for believers.

Matthew verses show who is born again and who is not. False prophets or religious people can do holy looking acts but unless the acts are produced by the vine working in and through the branch it means nothing. These works will be burned up as wood hay and stubble. By the way if we say we need to always obey Jesus’ words then try out more of the Sermon on the Mount and pluck your eyes out. (Mat 5:27-29) :)


Thanks
RC


LIC,
Dennis



drmark -> RE: Be Holy? (5/6/2008 2:02:04 PM)

quote:

By the way if we say we need to always obey Jesus’ words then try out more of the Sermon on the Mount and pluck your eyes out.
Sorry, Dennis, I don't need to pluck out my eyes or cut off my hand, because the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit is able to keep me from sinning!



rcjames -> RE: Be Holy? (5/6/2008 2:09:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dennis2

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dennis2
quote:

Dennis, are you saying that sin committed after salvation has no effect on our relationship with Christ or our future relsationship (Heaven)?

RC If He is not counting our sins against us as His word says then that must be true. However with His resurected life living in us we will not be wanting to live in sin.
quote:

Just sin away, enjoy the sin, it does not matter to God? Or am I not reading your post correctly?

RC I never said this, you did. God wants to renew our minds. Love ya,
Dennis.


But that is what you and others on this thread are saying by claiming that; any sin you do tomorrow or in the future is already forgiven automatically God will not see it nor hold it against the person. With some folks here saying the igoring and forgiveness of sins do not require the sinner confessin, repenting, remorse, or seeking God's forgiveness for the transgression.

That my friend is making provision for the devil and sin.
My friend what you are saying is denying what Christ has done for you.
When did Christ take away your sins? Was it not 2000 years ago?
You seem to have some fear that if I live my life by faith in what Christ has clearly already done that I am of the devil.
There is no fear in the perfect love of God.
Your way of thinking would leave you fearful that if you died right after having a lustful thought and did not have time to ask God to forgive you you would perish.
(Eph 4:27) Neither give place to the devil.

It is OSAS run amuck.
In context the Ephesians passages are:
26 "In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,
27 and do not give the devil a foothold.
28 He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.

This is solid advice. The Holy Spirit reminds me of these passages alot. Especially the one on anger.
Please note that nowhere in here does Paul remind believers that your better confess your sin of stealing in order for God to forgive you. Maybe Paul did not know this. Or, maybe he knew that Christ took all our sins away 2000 years ago.

Again I say by following through what some of those on this thread are saying; a Christian could be committing adultery, shooting up dope, lying to his wife on the phone, and lusting after something on the TV, die: and automatically wake up in the welcoming arms of Jesus.

Did Christ take these sins away or not?

I say God will not look on a mess such as that and say, "Well done my good and faithful servant"

I would not expect to be praised for these types of behavior.
I would not expect to be praised for calling God a liar when He said "It is Finished" No one asked God to forgive them when Jesus cried this from the cross.
I refer you to the Book of First John Chapter 3, and would declare that the person committing adultery was spoken of there;

(1Jn 3:8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

(1Jn 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

(1Jn 3:10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Anyone walking (continuing) is sin is in deep caca with the Father.

You are in deep caca because you are continuing to deny the finality of the cross. Jesus defined the worlds sin as:
John 19:8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt {8 Or <will expose the guilt of the world>} in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;

Now is there a provision for someone IF they sin after salvation; yes.

(1Jn 1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Don't forget 1Jn 1:8 ¶ If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If the truth is not in us we do not belong to Him. If we have the truth we will not loose the truth:
2 John 1:1 ¶ The elder, To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth— and not I only, but also all who know the truth—2 because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

1 John 1:9 is for the whomsoever in verse 8 saying they do not have sin.
I do not know many believers that would honestly say such a thing.

(1Jn 2:1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Pleae not that this verse says IF not when we sin, but if we sin.
Please finish the thought in context: Verse 2 He is the one who turns aside God’s wrath, taking away our sins, and not only ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
You see in verse 1 John is now addressing "My little children". He is now talking to believers and they have the advocate. When the accusor, satan, tries to tell a saint: "look at what you did, if you keep that up you are going to loose your salvation". Jesus says I took that sin away.
Peter in the first sermon of the CHurch era gave the instructions for salvation;

(Act 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Please note the "Repent" part, repent means to turn from not continue in. for if someone does not repent and continues in sin then as John says they are not children of God.
Yes repent is a permanent idea. So if you say you have repented of your sin does that mean that you will never commit that sin again?
Pete is saying repent of your unbelief.
Without the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness. Getting dunked or sprinkled with water cannot take away sins.
My sense of this verse is: Repent from you old belief systems and be babtised or identified with Jesus Christ because of the forgiveness of sins.
It is like taking an asprin for a headache. You take the asprin because you have a headache not to get one.

The real danger in my thinking concerning this OSAS run amuck is that folks seeking the Faith are told that continued sin has no effect on their relationship with God. And that is a lie right out of the pits of hell and puts those folks in nery much danger of Matt 7 where Christ says;

(Mat 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Can a Christian sin? yes. Are they a Christian if they walk (continue) in sin; John and I say a definate no.

If sin is unbelief as Jesus defined it then once one has belived in Christ alone and recieved His resurrected life then that person will not continue in unbelief. The letters of John 1,2,3 were to dispell false teaching of the gnostics who were spreading errors. They have both correction for false beliefs and admonishment and encouragement for believers.

Matthew verses show who is born again and who is not. False prophets or religious people can do holy looking acts but unless the acts are produced by the vine working in and through the branch it means nothing. These works will be burned up as wood hay and stubble. By the way if we say we need to always obey Jesus’ words then try out more of the Sermon on the Mount and pluck your eyes out. (Mat 5:27-29) :)


Dennis, the way you type and lay out your respnses is as or more confusiong that your suggestion that God does not care if we sin or not.

I suggest you take a few monemts to learn how to quote and post responses to that quote so we may try to understand what you are saying.

Thsnks
RC



deliveredarling -> RE: Be Holy? (5/6/2008 6:47:48 PM)

I can not even express how arrogant this thought process is. To think that Jesus suffered as He did on the cross for you, for me, for everyone who will accept Him and simply dismiss sin because He already died for it is appalling and most certainly false teaching. You suggest to follow Christ's teachings, well what do you say about His words to us in Revelation? Does He not mean it? Is He not talking to believer's? We see Him clearly state the opposite of what you are saying:

Rev 2:4 'But I have {this} against you, that you have left your first love.
Rev 2:5 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent.

Rev 2:7 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'


Rev 2:16 'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.

Rev 2:21 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.

Particularly disturbing is that He teaches repentance and you say that it is not necessary, because we are already forgiven. Future sins being forgiven indicates that it is sinning in the future, right? Do we not have a choice of whether we decide to sin or not? Since we do have a choice then, that choice to sin or not sin would be deliberate.
Saying that our future sins are forgiven, which they will be, if we repent and ask for forgiveness.
The letters to the seven churches sound remarkably similar to the churches of today. Coincidence? I don't think so. What you are saying here sounds so very good, and it is so very deceptive. Whether you think you are not advocating a license to sin or not, you really are. Christ did not die on that cross for us to continue in a life of sin. He died so that if and when we do sin, we have an advocate in Jesus Christ. Not to mention once we have received Him as our Lord and Savior, we won't have the desire to live as we previously did.If we do, there is a problem. How do you not see this a sending a mixed message to believers and non-believers alike? "Sure, go ahead and sin, YOU ARE FORGIVEN". But let us not mention the rest of the story...... Let's not talk about holiness and our command to be. How do you have holiness and sin together? God can't look upon sin, so if we don't repent, then there has to be something..... Oh look, He tells us about it in

Luk 13:6 And He {began} telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luk 13:7 "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luk 13:8 "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luk 13:9 and if it bears fruit next year, {fine;} but if not, cut it down.' "



Dennis2 -> RE: Be Holy? (5/6/2008 7:30:36 PM)

Well RC at least I agee with you that I need to learn how to use the response system better.
Dennis



Dennis2 -> RE: Be Holy? (5/6/2008 7:55:12 PM)

delivereddarling,
Nowhere do I advocate that we should dismiss sin. I hate it when I sin.
However the Lord did leave me with flesh that is in conflict with the Holy Spirit living in me and I do listen to my flesh much too often.
I think you will probably agree that this is true.
The difference is how we respond. I agree with God or confess that I have blown it. I see now that I failed to trust God in what ever situation I was in and attempted to depend upon my emotions or feelings instead of God's truth. I was not allowing the love of God to flow through me.
I also agree with God that He has taken that sin away and He did so 2000 years ago. Jesus paid a terrible price for my sins. What a heart of gratitude I have for Him.

Now if I ask God to forgive me when He already has then it must mean I do not believe He took them all away on the cross.
So to me I thank Him and ask Him to renew my mind. He would tell me to go apologise to anyone I may have offended. I would know I need to get out of the way and trust Him more.

Dennis

Dennis



deliveredarling -> RE: Be Holy? (5/6/2008 8:47:24 PM)

So what is the terrible feeling you get when you have done something wrong?
Conviction? Does that mean that we say, "Yes, Lord, I agree that was wrong", and go about our merry way? Or do you ask for forgiveness and repent? I ask for forgiveness and repent because:
1 John 1:9 tells me
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

I take Him at His word. If we sin, we confess and He will forgive. He died for all sin, meaning any sin. For sin period. We have to confess. We have to acknowledge that we know we did something wrong and repent. He never tells us in His word that we don't have to ask for forgiveness. That is a poor doctrine of easy believeism. He would not tell us to repent and confess if He didn't mean it. Saying that we don't have to ask for forgiveness because we already have it is a license to sin. You said to look at Jesus' teachings, I did. He said repent. Then you said Paul never taught this, but he did:
2Cr 7:9 I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to {the point of} repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to {the will of} God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.


I know I will sin. I know I have a choice in whether I do or I don't. I don't take it for granted that because He died for sin, that I can sin and be comfortable doing it because I am forgiven. I know that I am forgiven, but I have to acknowledge it to Him. Because he needs to know I have sinned? No, so that I know that He knows that I know I have done wrong. That I am sorry for doing it. That I won't repeat that mistake. Are there sins in my life that I am sorry for but keep repeating? Yes, do I say "forgive me Lord " and do it again? Absolutely not. I asked Him to make me willing to not do that again. Do we all struggle with sin. I believe that we do. Do I think we get to a point where we sin less-most definitely. This is the refining process. Sanctification-continuous repentance is a part of this. We will never be completely perfect while on this earth. however, what we do and learn here has eternal consequences.



deliveredarling -> RE: Be Holy? (5/6/2008 9:10:09 PM)

One more thing,
If we don't acknowledge the sin, confess the sin and repent of the sin, we are hardening are hearts toward the seriousness of sin. He has us do these things to maintain( a poor choice of words, I know[&o] a relationship with Him, to remember just how very much we need a Savior. It keeps us humble.
Whether people want to realize it or not, we have a choice, it's called free will. We can acknowledge the Holy Spirit working within us to bring about these things or ignore it.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Be Holy? (5/7/2008 2:01:14 AM)

Dennis, you are certainly not alone. I also know that I am not perfect. I know that yesterday, I had entirely too much sugar, and I knew better. I am sitting here, staying up, when I ought to be in bed, sleeping. And while these things may sound trivial to some, it is because I am not well-versed in the idea of sin, so I don't fully understand it. Regardless, threads on holiness draw me, and I read them, whether or not I join in the conversations.

But the bottom line is that I want so much to be mature before the L-rd, still I fall so short so often. I want to be set apart from the world, set apart for Him, but....



drmark -> RE: Be Holy? (5/7/2008 12:42:25 PM)

quote:

However the Lord did leave me with flesh that is in conflict with the Holy Spirit living in me and I do listen to my flesh much too often.
I think you will probably agree that this is true.
What I think is that we need to follow God's Word and let him crucify our flesh! Stop listening and start dying out, Dennis:

Romans 6:6 - For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

Romans 8:13 - If by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 2:20 - I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.

Galatians 5:24 - Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.

Galatians 6:14 - May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Colossians 3:5 - Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature.



drmark -> RE: Be Holy? (5/7/2008 12:50:03 PM)

quote:

But the bottom line is that I want so much to be mature before the L-rd, still I fall so short so often. I want to be set apart from the world, set apart for Him, but....
Abiyah, if I may say so, you seem to frequently confuse Christian perfection (sanctified holiness) with Christian maturity (growing daily in His grace). Falling short in maturity is NOT losing our holiness. As we walk in the Light G-d provides, we have perfect fellowship with Him and with other Believers. Think of a perfectly formed, unblemished, disease-free piece of fruit. If it's still green, it takes lousy until it's fully ripened. Sanctified Christians are perfect in potential and intent, but we still have to ripen to G-d's standard when He's ready to call us home. Make sense?



rileykins -> RE: Be Holy? (5/7/2008 1:56:35 PM)

Hi gmc4Jesus

"What does it mean to you to be holy, set apart, sanctified, special? How do you live that holy life?"

Galatians 2:20 comes to mind...

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

verse 21 is pretty good too...

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

rileykins



Dennis2 -> RE: Be Holy? (5/7/2008 5:16:29 PM)

deliveredarling
I feel stupid when I sin. Stupid because I listened to my flesh and relied on my emotions. If I have offended a brother or sister then I have a terrible feeling. Again the Holy Spirit desires that I go and apologise. The offense was against the brother or sister. God knew about that sin 2000 years ago and He died for it. He has reconciled the world to himself not counting mens sins against them. Be reconciled!
No where am I promoting what you are suggesting I am saying that "Yes, Lord, I agree that was wrong", and go about our merry way?" Did I say that I will just "go about my merry way?" NO! May it never be! I just know that He took away my sins already.

The verse in 1 John 1:9 is not for a believer but for the person in verse 8 who is saying they do not sin and the truth is not in them. If we have the truth we are believers. 2 John 1:2 because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:
If fact 1 John 1:9 is the only verse on this side of the cross, when He took all our sins away, that even suggests that we ask God to forgive us. Paul never said to confess in order to get forgiven.
You mentioned 2 cor 7:9. Please read this verse in context. Paul never told the saints in Corinth to confess in order to get forgiven. He had admonished them in an earlier letter and they were led to be sorrowful.
They changed and Paul was commending them.

We can never be made holy by what we do apart from believing in what He has provided for us. Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace.
Heb 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Dennis



Dennis2 -> RE: Be Holy? (5/7/2008 5:41:18 PM)

deliveredarling
You wrote:
"One more thing,
If we don't acknowledge the sin, confess the sin and repent of the sin, we are hardening are hearts toward the seriousness of sin. He has us do these things to maintain( a poor choice of words, I know a relationship with Him, to remember just how very much we need a Savior. It keeps us humble.
Whether people want to realize it or not, we have a choice, it's called free will. We can acknowledge the Holy Spirit working within us to bring about these things or ignore it. "


I used to do all the confessing and asking for forgivess that is probably promoted by most of christianity today.
When I finally came to understand the truth that God already forgave us 2000 years ago it actually freed me up to bask in His love for me and give me an even stronger desire to serve Him.
I recall a story about the slave market. A slave was brought up to be auctioned. He was a massive man. A very wealth man bid so high no one else could ever pay that much. After being given the key to the slave's shackles the owner freed him. The slave was eaten up with gratitude and asked his master what he wanted him to do. The owner said you are free to go whereever you want. Sir you paid such a price for me and you are so kind to me to set me free. Can I come home with you? Can I serve you?
While human efforts to give an example of God's truth will always fall short I see this story of how my desire is to serve Jesus, to be available for Him is because of what He has done for me. It is because of His great love for me that I can love Him and others. If I had to try to earn my freedom I never could. I would spend the rest of my life and never make it.
If I am desiring to serve Him would that lead me to a license to sin? I know that is not the case. He will renew my mind.
Dennis



Dennis2 -> RE: Be Holy? (5/7/2008 5:47:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

However the Lord did leave me with flesh that is in conflict with the Holy Spirit living in me and I do listen to my flesh much too often.
I think you will probably agree that this is true.
What I think is that we need to follow God's Word and let him crucify our flesh! Stop listening and start dying out, Dennis:

Romans 6:6 - For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

Romans 8:13 - If by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 2:20 - I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.

Galatians 5:24 - Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.

Galatians 6:14 - May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Colossians 3:5 - Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature.

drmark,
I like all these verses.
We must die to our selves to come alive to God. Salvation is recieving His life. We become new creations and it is no longer consistant to live like we formerly were.
Dennis



deliveredarling -> RE: Be Holy? (5/7/2008 6:18:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dennis2


quote:

If I had to try to earn my freedom I never could.


I don't understand what you see as earning anything from Him. All of my works are filthy as rags. I can't repay Him for anything, however I do believe that He has expectations for us. The whole NT is full of them.
I don't try to earn my salvation, I am assured of it. Confession and repentance are apart of those things.
I referred to 2 Cor. as a demonstration of Paul putting this into action. Seeing as He was taught by Christ, It would seem to me that He would teach others those same things. The guy in 2 Cor. refused to repent. Paul booted him out in order for him to turn from his wicked ways. When he did turn, Paul lovingly welcomed him back. I fully believe this is what Christ does for us. We sin, we straggle, we come to our senses, confess, ask for forgiveness and He waits patiently to welcome us back. He never forces himself on us. He doesn't walk away, we walk away from Him.
I gotta tell ya, we have been debating this same issue for weeks now on different threads. I have seen a few who hold your position. I have not changed my position yet and don't believe that I will. I think it is far from the truth. I don't doubt that you love the Lord and are very sincere. This just doesn't happen to be a doctrine I can believe in. I thank God it is not my job to convince anyone. That would be such a task. May God bless you.



rcjames -> RE: Be Holy? (5/7/2008 7:12:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dennis2


quote:

If I had to try to earn my freedom I never could.


I don't understand what you see as earning anything from Him. All of my works are filthy as rags. I can't repay Him for anything, however I do believe that He has expectations for us. The whole NT is full of them.
I don't try to earn my salvation, I am assured of it. Confession and repentance are apart of those things.


I agree.

The defining verse to me concerning whether a Christian chooses to sin or not is;

(1Co 10:13) No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

This tells me as a Christian that by God's Grace, the Sacrifice of Christ, the Ministry of the Holy Spirit, and faith in the Word of God to be true; that when temptation rears its ugly head I can make the choice to endure that temptation and not sin.

It is nothing I do other than make the decision, just as a made to decision to use the God given Faith to be saved to begin with.

If I choose to sin; then through Godly sorrow, confession, repentance, and God's Grace I can have that restored position with Christ.

Thanks
RC



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Be Holy? (5/7/2008 7:29:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
Abiyah, if I may say so, you seem to frequently confuse Christian perfection (sanctified holiness) with Christian maturity (growing daily in His grace). Falling short in maturity is NOT losing our holiness. As we walk in the Light G-d provides, we have perfect fellowship with Him and with other Believers. Think of a perfectly formed, unblemished, disease-free piece of fruit. If it's still green, it takes lousy until it's fully ripened. Sanctified Christians are perfect in potential and intent, but we still have to ripen to G-d's standard when He's ready to call us home. Make sense?

We do understand these ideas differently, Mark. I remain very unsure of some of these ideas. What I do know is that I have not reached a point of perfection, because I err -- often. While some people can immediately think of all kinds of sins they committed from waking through sleeping, I cannot, but I remain errant. That's just the way it is.



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