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RE: Be Holy? - 5/9/2008 4:38:48 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 789
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
quote:
So you are saying that it was our good behavior that got us into Christ?
I am not saying that at all, not have I ever.
I also take it that you believe that a believer can lose his/her salvation.According to the Hebrews scripture, it does appear so.
You must also be saying that God is wrong when he tells us that we ARE washed, ARE sanctified, ARE justified in Christ Jesus? No, it's called the gospel of the grace of God, not apostasy. Do you want to know what apostasy is? It's rejecting Pauline doctrine. It's called teaching another gospel which is not another.
Wrong. Apostasy is disregarding Jesus. And we can walk away from Him and reject Him. Why anyone would want to, I don't know. We were warned this would happen. You seem to be picking out specific scriptures to fit your line of thinking and disregarding others as if they can't possibly mean anything.
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. This is what I believe is being done by the dismissal of need for repentance and forgiveness.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-8
And what is the gospel that Paul says is being perverted? Do you know?
Asked and answered above.
But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself,so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. Acts 20:24
This, what you are saying is only part of the gospel. What is being debated is the other half. It takes both sides for full understanding.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/9/2008 4:43:00 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Absolutely, and it was after he repented and confessed that his position in the Church (the communion of Saints) was restored.
Which is the very point I have been trying to make, IF a Christian sins then confession and repentance is necessary to restore one to rightstanding with God.
Many folks on this tread claim that sin has no effect on our relationship with God, just sin away and God has already forgiven it; no big deal. Well God does consider sin a big deal, so big a deal that He gave His Son for the ability of those who believe to be able to choose not to sin.
If no repentance or confession is necessary; then the man in corinthisan who was doing his mother in law would have automatically been clenased and there would be no need to excommute him from the body of CHrist.
Thanks
RC
Well said. I don't see what is hard about understanding this. I'm glad the guy from Corinthians came up. It demonstrates this well. Focusing on the churches reaction is something I never saw in it. Interesting perspective, however I don't think that was the predominate point.....
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/9/2008 5:32:43 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3165
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Rileykins and deliveredarling, I know you're both very enthusiastic for your positions, but please try to use the "quote" feature only around the post or portion of post that you are replying to. It would help all of us to read the flow of discussion much better!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/9/2008 6:09:27 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3165
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Well, I don't know how the pros do it with the ORIGINAL: so-ans-so feature, but I just use the FastReply then cut and paste, and then highlight only the portion that I wish to respond to, click on "quote", then after "quote" surrounds it, I type my response. Just repeat the process for the next specific reply. Works for me anyway.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/9/2008 7:11:43 PM
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Dennis2
Posts: 25
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
quote:
So you are saying that it was our good behavior that got us into Christ?
I am not saying that at all, not have I ever.
I also take it that you believe that a believer can lose his/her salvation.According to the Hebrews scripture, it does appear so.
Dear deliverdarling,
The verses in Hebrews 6 and 10 are talking about those who say there is some other way of sacrificing for sins then the finished work of Christ.
Hebrews 6:13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.
14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
1 ¶ Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, {1 Or <from useless rituals>} and of faith in God,
2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
3 And God permitting, we will do so.
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because {6 Or <repentance while>} to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Those who have tasted but never swallowed the grace of God cannot be brought back to repentance because they never accepted the final sacrifice of Jesus. Judas tasted but he never swallowed.
Also if you say these verses mean we can loose our salvation then according to this verse they have blown it forever. It would be impossible for them to be brought back.
Hebrews 10:6 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." {16 Jer. 31:33}
17 Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." {17 Jer. 31:34}
18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
19 ¶ Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body,
21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.
Get it? He is not remembering our sins no more because there is no more sacrifice for sins. This is truth.
Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Verse 26 is saying anyone who keeps on missing the mark after receiving the knowledge of truth is out of luck because there is no other sacrifice for sins. The context is to a Hebrew audience who probably came to a knowledge of Christ's sacrifice but continued to go to animal sacrifices that could never take away sins.
Perhaps it is also for anyone saying that if they confess their sins in order to get forgiven have also insulted the Spirit of grace.
Dennis
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/9/2008 7:23:19 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3165
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quote:
Those who have tasted but never swallowed the grace of God cannot be brought back to repentance because they never accepted the final sacrifice of Jesus. I'm sorry, Dennis, but your own statement shows the folly of your position. How can one be brought back to repentance, if they never accepted Christ's forgiveness in the first place? These passage from Hebrews on apostasy have been discussed on at least two other threads I remember, so maybe we could look those up if you wish. Apostasy has nothing to do with being holy!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 7:33:25 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 789
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quote:
Judas tasted but he never swallowed.
Yes, he did. He died in His sin for refusing to repent. He is an example to us all...... We see it right there. Judas saw, felt experienced Jesus and still turned from Him. He chose worldliness over godliness and suffers eternally for it. He had the same opportunity we all have and did not take it. Key here being choice.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 7:49:21 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 789
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quote:
Do you want to know what apostasy is? It's rejecting Pauline doctrine. It's called teaching another gospel which is not another.
I'm very clear on what apostasy is. Your definition wrong in that you are specifically meaning the rejection of Pauline doctrine.
Webster's defines it as:
14th century
1 : renunciation of a religious faith 2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection
My NASB master study Bible uses these references to apostasy:
Deut 13:13
Heb 3:12
Matt 24:9,10,12
Luke 8:13
2 Tim 4:10
Zeph 1:4-6
Heb 10:25-31, 39
2 Pet 3:17
2 thess 2:3
1Tim4:1-3
2 Tim 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine: but wanting to have their ears tickled, they store up for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires:and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths.
We go on to define apostasy with:
Hebrews 10:26
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin.
Judas did this. he had received the knowledge of the truth. He knew who Jesus was and continued in his sin. Jesus is where the buck stops for sin. Judas rejected Him being the ONLY remaining sacrifice for sin
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 9:40:32 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 4591
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
We go on to define apostasy with:
Hebrews 10:26
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin.
Judas did this. he had received the knowledge of the truth. He knew who Jesus was and continued in his sin. Jesus is where the buck stops for sin. Judas rejected Him being the ONLY remaining sacrifice for sin
And sadly far far too many folks who call themselves Christians are doing this very thing today.
One just cannot continue in their sin and be a child of God.
(1Jn 3:10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 1:01:32 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 544
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"There are few things quite so boring as being religious, but there is nothing quite so exciting as being a Christian!
Most folks have never discovered the difference between the one and the other, so that there are those who sincerely try to live a life they do not have, substituting religion for God, Christianity for Christ, and their own noble endeavors for the energy, joy, and power of the Holy Spirit. In the absence of reality, they can only grasp at rituals, stubbornly defending the latter in the absence of the former, lest they be found with neither!
They are lamps without oil, cars without gas, and pens without ink, baffled at their own impotence in the absence of all that alone can make man functional; for man was so engineered by God that the presence of the Creator within the creature is indispensable to His humanity. Christ gave Himself for us to give Himself to us! His presence puts God back into the man! He came that we might have life - God's life!
There are those who have a life they never live. They have come to Christ and thanked Him only for what He did, but do not live in the power of who He is. Between the Jesus who "was" and the Jesus who "will be" they live in a spiritual vacuum, trying with no little zeal to live for Christ a life that only He can live in and through them, perpetually begging for what in Him they already have!" Maj. Ian Thomas
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 1:45:37 PM
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Dennis2
Posts: 25
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quote:
I'm sorry, Dennis, but your own statement shows the folly of your position. How can one be brought back to repentance, if they never accepted Christ's forgiveness in the first place? These passage from Hebrews on apostasy have been discussed on at least two other threads I remember, so maybe we could look those up if you wish. Apostasy has nothing to do with being holy!
delivereddarling,
They cannot be brought back to repentance because they have never repented and change from believing in the sacrificial system to receiving the final sacrifice of Christ and therefore His resurrected life.
Repenting from one's unbelief and receiving total forgiveness and eternal life is not the same as saying "Oh I insulted a brother I must repent and ask God to forgive me". Chances are I will insult a brother again so I did not really repent. If we are focusing on getting right with God after we insult a brother we are focusing on ourselves. Christ in you and the grace of God will teach you to quit insulting and to go apologise to your brother. He has made you holy so let him work His love in and through you.
The only sin Christ did not die for is unbelief in Him. Repent and get rid of any system to try to obtain forgiveness by any other means but Christ.
Dennis
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 1:53:18 PM
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Dennis2
Posts: 25
Joined: 4/30/2008
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quote:
One just cannot continue in their sin and be a child of God.
RC, I suggest that you sin all the time. Do you ever worry? Do you ever get angry? Maybe you are perfect but quite frankly I know I sin everyday. That is pretty consistant. Do I want to? Of course not and I know you do not either.
Dennis
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 1:58:07 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3165
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quote:
RC, I suggest that you sin all the time. Dennis, I suggest that 1) you have an incorrect definition of sinning and 2) that you are beyond the bounds of decent presumption to know the heart of another. So, please refrain from ignorant judgementalism!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 2:30:12 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 4591
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dennis2
quote:
One just cannot continue in their sin and be a child of God.
RC, I suggest that you sin all the time. Do you ever worry? Do you ever get angry? Maybe you are perfect but quite frankly I know I sin everyday. That is pretty consistant. Do I want to? Of course not and I know you do not either.
Dennis
Since you admit that you sin every day and consistantly, I suggest you study these two verses;
(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
and
(Php 2:12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
I will have my Church pray for you tomorrow that you may come to the knowledge of the truth, that knowledge of truth being;
(1Jn 3:7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
(1Jn 3:8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(1Jn 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(1Jn 3:10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 3:30:39 PM
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gmc4Jesus
Posts: 154
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Torrance, California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dennis2
quote:
One just cannot continue in their sin and be a child of God.
RC, I suggest that you sin all the time. Do you ever worry? Do you ever get angry? Maybe you are perfect but quite frankly I know I sin everyday. That is pretty consistant. Do I want to? Of course not and I know you do not either.
Dennis
Dennis,
I think you may be confusing the difference between temptation and sin. No one will argue that we are definitly tempted everyday. However, if we say "NO" to that temptation, then we do not sin.
Getting angry is not sin. Jesus got angry on more than one occasion.
In Ephesians 4:26-27, Paul tells us to be angry, but get over it and not allow it to lead us to sin.
Read Romans 6:1-23. Paul also reminds us that when we were immersed into Christ, we died to sin. How can we any longer live in it?
God bless you as we seek to better understand and apply His Word in our quest to live the holy life that He has imparted and given us the freedom to do.
_____________________________
Let's talk about Jesus, His life and teachings at the www.gettingtoknowjesus.org Gospel Study Forum.
Home of "Getting To Know Jesus", a complete Bible study on the life and teachings of Jesus.
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 3:33:31 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 789
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dennis2
quote:
I'm sorry, Dennis, but your own statement shows the folly of your position. How can one be brought back to repentance, if they never accepted Christ's forgiveness in the first place? These passage from Hebrews on apostasy have been discussed on at least two other threads I remember, so maybe we could look those up if you wish. Apostasy has nothing to do with being holy!
delivereddarling,
They cannot be brought back to repentance because they have never repented and change from believing in the sacrificial system to receiving the final sacrifice of Christ and therefore His resurrected life.
Repenting from one's unbelief and receiving total forgiveness and eternal life is not the same as saying "Oh I insulted a brother I must repent and ask God to forgive me". Chances are I will insult a brother again so I did not really repent. If we are focusing on getting right with God after we insult a brother we are focusing on ourselves. Christ in you and the grace of God will teach you to quit insulting and to go apologise to your brother. He has made you holy so let him work His love in and through you.
The only sin Christ did not die for is unbelief in Him. Repent and get rid of any system to try to obtain forgiveness by any other means but Christ.
Dennis
Dennis,
I didn't make the quote you are referring to here, that was DrMark.
< Message edited by deliveredarling -- 5/10/2008 3:41:29 PM >
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 3:40:04 PM
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gmc4Jesus
Posts: 154
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Torrance, California
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That is a powerful word - Choice
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Judas saw, felt experienced Jesus and still turned from Him. He chose worldliness over godliness and suffers eternally for it. He had the same opportunity we all have and did not take it. Key here being choice.
I have long realized that we have choices and that is what gives us freedom. It is also God restraining His power.
Thirty five years ago, I aspired to write the perfect sermon. One in which everyone who heard it would choose to come to Jesus. I soon realized that my goal, while noble, was humanly impossible. Jesus preached and performed many signs and wonders to persuade His audience that He was the Christ, the Messiah. Even then, there were those who chose to reject Him.
Everyday, I must choose whether I am going to say "No" to temptation and build on living the holy life that I have been set apart and sanctified to live by God, or whether I am going to give in to that temptation and press the boundaries of God's grace.
If we love Jesus and fully realize what He did for us, we will make a conscious effort to choose to refrain from sin and do what is right. You must exercise the responsibility to make a choice.
God bless you as you seek to make the right choices for His Kingdom.
_____________________________
Let's talk about Jesus, His life and teachings at the www.gettingtoknowjesus.org Gospel Study Forum.
Home of "Getting To Know Jesus", a complete Bible study on the life and teachings of Jesus.
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 3:43:20 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 544
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dennis2
quote:
One just cannot continue in their sin and be a child of God.
RC, I suggest that you sin all the time. Do you ever worry? Do you ever get angry? Maybe you are perfect but quite frankly I know I sin everyday. That is pretty consistant. Do I want to? Of course not and I know you do not either.
Dennis
Getting angry is not sin.
Have you never read that if one is angry with his brother he has already committed murder in his heart? How about the one about looking on a woman with lust? How are you doing now?
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the Truth is not in us."
...and the Truth is Jesus Christ. Ironic eh?
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 3:50:34 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 544
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus.
If we love Jesus and fully realize what He did for us, we will make a conscious effort to choose to refrain from sin and do what is right. .
Our choice is not to sin or not to sin. Our choice is always and at all times whether to abide in the vine or not. Are you going to choose to depend on the God that indwells you, or are you going to choose your own way. This is not our daily choice, it is our moment by moment choice.
To dwell on sin results is sin. To dwell in the Lord results in His fruit being produced through us. That fruit is the opposite of sin; there is no law that one can abide by that can produce the fruit of the Spirit, only the Spirit can produce it.
Peace
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 5/10/2008 4:30:58 PM >
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 3:57:15 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 789
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Let me ask you guys something?
How do you preach a life changing gospel and not expect to see lives changed?
Here's another: You say the most important question people can ask is if you know Jesus, right? Isn't it more important to as, If He knows you?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 3:59:39 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 544
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
RC, I suggest that you sin all the time. Dennis, I suggest that 1) you have an incorrect definition of sinning and 2) that you are beyond the bounds of decent presumption to know the heart of another. So, please refrain from ignorant judgementalism!
It is not a judgement, it is merely an acknowlegement of a fact. We all sin, and we all sin all the time. If you think you don't, then you either have no proper concept of what God considers sin, or you are simply not conscious.
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 4:09:20 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 544
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Let me ask you guys something?
How do you preach a life changing gospel and not expect to see lives changed?
Here's another: You say the most important question people can ask is if you know Jesus, right? Isn't it more important to as, If He knows you?
I don't know what guys you are referring to, or where you got these presumptions, or even what the questions mean. But I do know that being led by the indwelling Spirit of God is about as life changing an experience that one could have.
It is just incredible what He will do...if we just get the heck out of the way. 
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 5:19:20 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3165
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
We all sin, and we all sin all the time. You may speak for yourself, URF, but you have no sane interpretation of 1 John 3:4-10 if you believe Christians "sin all the time"! I agree with Brother James - I'll pray for you as well as Dennis.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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, I'm just not very good at the quote posting. The color difference didn't help any?
