RE: Be Holy? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> Christian Doctrine



Message

URForgiven -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 2:40:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Heavendweller

Sin effects our relationship with God and with others. When we deliberately sin, we are ignoring God and showing by our actions that we don't care what He thinks. We are demonstrating that we would rather please ourselves than Him. This apathetic attitude most certainly grieves our Heavenly Father, just as it grieves earthly parents when their children deliberately disobey them.

Heavendweller


What grieves God the Father is not accepting His Sons finished work. When you ignore the fact that forgiveness from Gods point of view is a done deal, you are demonstrating your unbelief.

All sin is choosing independence and self-sufficiency over dependence upon the sufficiency of Christ. Do you see how important it is then for God to do away with our sins? Who can save us from this body of death? Thanks be to God!!!

The sin issue for God is finished. He sent His One and only Son to take away the sins of the world, once, and for all. And He has accepted Christs sacrifice as payment in full. To believe anything else is to shake your fist at God and call Him a liar.

Forgiveness is the cleansing that is necessary to receive life. Christ's resurrected life. Eternal life. Sin, sins, sinning, forgiveness, are not the issue. The issue is life. Christ's life, lived in and through you as you abide in Him.

Peace



deliveredarling -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 2:51:47 PM)

I don't recall anyone here saying that they don't sin. Many scriptures provided have shown that there is an escape from sinning and therefore reflective by choice. Why we are hung up on whether or not sin is a choice, I just don't know.
What seems to be happening is some are taking the position of being held accountable for sin is a form of judgment. Not righteous judgment as we are commanded to do but the condemning judgment of the pharisees. There is a difference here. One side heavily leans towards accountability and responsibility and the other sees very little if any reason for it. As I have said before it takes both sides for it to be complete. Both sides have very strong doctrine backed with scripture. Where one is rigid, the other is too lax. Personally, the "rigid" side is biblically based. It just seems as though the lax side wants to say that we are works based and like the pharisees. Yet, I don't here any of us saying that we are not sinners. Any works that we may do are done by and through the HS. So how do we take credit for it? How is that works? If He commands us to do certain things, isn't it the HS that enables us to do those things commanded? How is that works based? The cross is for us to run to, not leave behind because it is finished. How can it be finished when He hasn't finished us? When He said it is finished, he meant that there remains no more sacrifice for sin. Nothing we can do could take away our sins. It didn't mean that we wouldn't sin, yet if we do and believe in Him, repent we will be forgiven. he will not cast us away. It also mean that we have the HS living in us and we have been made into new creatures and will not want to sin. But if we do, we have an advocate in Jesus Christ.



Dennis2 -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 4:27:47 PM)

quote:

Dennis, I suggest that 1) you have an incorrect definition of sinning and 2) that you are beyond the bounds of decent presumption to know the heart of another. So, please refrain from ignorant judgementalism!


I suggest that anything that is not of faith is sin. Most of us make decisions all the time where we respond in our flesh and the result is inconsistant as a child of God. We responded not by faith to what God would have us do but what our flesh wants to do.

I agree I do not know another's heart. If was more of a question that an accusation. So I do apologise.
Yet you are being judgemental of me by suggesting I am ignorant. Did I misread that?
Love ya,
Dennis



Dennis2 -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 4:34:48 PM)

quote:

Since you admit that you sin every day and consistantly, I suggest you study these two verses;


RC,
Can you say that you never get angry? You never worry? Are you always patient? Do you never keep records of other's wrongs? etc.

The wages of sin is death. If you miss one point of the law you are guilty of violating all the law.
Christ either died for all our sins or the moment one sins after recieving Him they are dead again spiritually.
Love ya,
Dennis



Dennis2 -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 4:41:43 PM)

quote:

Getting angry is not sin. Jesus got angry on more than one occasion.


Gmc4Jesus,

Jesus did say that if you get angry at your brother you are guilty of murder. I know Jesus was without sin so the scene at the money table was probably His exercising his authority. I do not have the verses in front of me but I do not recall that it said he got raging mad as some movies protray him.
Thanks,
Dennis



drmark -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 5:41:42 PM)

quote:

Please give me some that indicat the apostles walked in sin or even sinned after acts 2.

That is what Mannamuncher is claiming and I would like some Scripture to back it up.
Brother James, I submit for consideration Peter's hypocrisy confronted by Paul as written in Gal 2:11-13. Even if this does represent one episode willful sin on the part of sanctified Peter, it certainly does not support a Christian walk of persistent, deliberate sinning as some have admitted to here and on other threads!



drmark -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 5:49:54 PM)

quote:

Jesus did say that if you get angry at your brother you are guilty of murder.
Actually, Dennis, the verse Matt 5:22 states that anyone angry with his brother will be subject to judgement, not guilty of murder. The key principle at play here is the intent of the heart - anger directed toward an innocent individual sufficient to wish them dead is morally equivalent to killing them yourself. It is holy to have righteous anger toward injustice and disobedience - 2 Kings 22:13.



McFatty -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 6:25:34 PM)

Would everyone who says that one must be perfect please answer me this:

Since the day you accepted Christ as your savior and were born again, have you committed even a single sinful act, even if it was in thought? Don't justify it or stipulate it; just answer.



rcjames -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 7:23:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty

Would everyone who says that one must be perfect please answer me this:


I don't believe anyone on this thread said one must be (or is) perfect.

I believe the thrust of the discussion has been about confession and repentance of a sin committed by a Believer vs. not being necessary to confess and repent, or if someone who continually walks in sin is a Christian.

quote:

Since the day you accepted Christ as your savior and were born again, have you committed even a single sinful act, even if it was in thought? Don't justify it or stipulate it; just answer.


Have I as a Christian personally committed a sinful act - yes

Have I as a Christian personally committed a wilful sin - No, not to my knowledge. If I have I will find out at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

What you are talking about is "Sinless Perfection" (the inability to sin), and I know of no denomination that professes it as a doctrine.

Thanks
RC



McFatty -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 7:30:35 PM)

I don't either... the thing is it really sounds like a lot of people are pushing such doctrine when they say that Christians are somehow able to be completely sinless and therefore anything short of that is unacceptable in the eyes of God (with or without regards to salvation).

I don't know anyone who doesn't believe they need to repent of their sins. However, the Bible tells us that if someone comes up to us seven times in a day saying "I repent" after committing the same sin against us seven times, we are to forgive them. That's the kind of forgiveness God is talking about and that's the kind of forgiveness He has for us. We can, and often do, make the same mistakes countless times (490 is mentioned in the Bible) yet are still forgiven. Thank God for that!!!

I agree with the point of view many of you have in that we should never cheapen the seriousness of sin. However, I believe we should never cheapen the scope of God's forgiveness, either.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 7:33:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
What you are talking about is "Sinless Perfection" (the inability to sin), and I know of no denomination that professes it as a doctrine.

Thanks
RC

Perhaps it is time to name one, my friend RC, so that you will know one. I will not claim that 100% of the staff and congregation believe this (or say they do), but I do know that when I left in 1999, a good estimate of the members who did believe they were completely without sin was about 96%. The church organization (and I do not think they would disagree with this in 2008!) is the Trinity Apostolic Faith. I think they would be happy to be known as such a church, or I would not have written this.

Let me add this: they believe that no believer sins. If one sins after being a believer, they, upon that determination to sin, lose their salvation and must be resaved. In other words, it is impossible for a believer to sin!



deliveredarling -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 7:42:10 PM)

quote:


I don't know anyone who doesn't believe they need to repent of their sins.


Read back a couple of pages and you will see this very expression. This is one of the main ideas that have been debated on many threads over the past couple of weeks.


quote:

I agree with the point of view many of you have in that we should never cheapen the seriousness of sin. However, I believe we should never cheapen the scope of God's forgiveness, either.





Here again is the serious debate taking place. Not needing to repent or ask forgiveness cheapens the Grace afford to us. The forgiveness that you mentioned: 70 x 7, I believe is the exact demonstration of Grace afforded to us as Christians. Why else would He tell us that? We are to forgive others as He has forgiven us. They really go together don't you think?



URForgiven -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 8:22:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
What you are talking about is "Sinless Perfection" (the inability to sin), and I know of no denomination that professes it as a doctrine.

Thanks
RC

Perhaps it is time to name one, my friend RC, so that you will know one. I will not claim that 100% of the staff and congregation believe this (or say they do), but I do know that when I left in 1999, a good estimate of the members who did believe they were completely without sin was about 96%. The church organization (and I do not think they would disagree with this in 2008!) is the Trinity Apostolic Faith. I think they would be happy to be known as such a church, or I would not have written this.

Let me add this: they believe that no believer sins. If one sins after being a believer, they, upon that determination to sin, lose their salvation and must be resaved. In other words, it is impossible for a believer to sin!


This is why you see folks redefining sin out of existence! They have to minimize sin in order to 'feel' sin free. When you see what sin is from Gods point of view, it makes it much harder to pretend you do not sin. Willful or otherwise.

Sin is not something to take lightly nor is it something to pretend doesn't exist. It is a fact of this life. And a constant reminder of why we need Jesus Christ.



URForgiven -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 8:27:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

quote:


I don't know anyone who doesn't believe they need to repent of their sins.


Read back a couple of pages and you will see this very expression. This is one of the main ideas that have been debated on many threads over the past couple of weeks.



Now DD, this is your interpretation of what some have said, but this is not what has been meant. The question has always been not whether we confess and repent, but what does it truly mean to confess and repent, and how is that accomplished.

Peace



deliveredarling -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 8:59:12 PM)

quote:

he question has always been not whether we confess and repent, but what does it truly mean to confess and repent, and how is that accomplished.


This hasn't ever been the question. If we all agreed that confession and repentance were a part of being holy (hence the thread title) there wouldn't be a debate of any kind. It's not just my interpretation.......

Are you now saying that confession and repentance are a part of a believer's continuing walk? If so, rileykins will have a fit that you switched sides[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]



deliveredarling -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 9:03:05 PM)

quote:

Now DD


I can just hear the tone![:D]



deliveredarling -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 9:07:59 PM)

I am wondering if maybe we all agree more than we disagree..
That maybe we are just using words differently, but meaning the same thing?

Ex: confession- some people don't like that word, maybe it sounds too legalistic, too churchy, so instead of saying confess, they use the word agree, because it's a more approachable, less in your face kind of word?

Does this make sense to any of ya'll? It's clear in my head, but I'm not sure that I have effectively communicated the thought[&:]



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 9:12:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I am wondering if maybe we all agree more than we disagree..
That maybe we are just using words differently, but meaning the same thing?

Ex: confession- some people don't like that word, maybe it sounds too legalistic, too churchy, so instead of saying confess, they use the word agree, because it's a more approachable, less in your face kind of word?

Does this make sense to any of ya'll? It's clear in my head, but I'm not sure that I have effectively communicated the thought[&:]

ZZZZZzzzzzzzactly! Give Deliveredarling the prize!!



deliveredarling -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 9:16:13 PM)

YaY, I got a prize[sm=funny.gif][sm=funny.gif][sm=funny.gif][sm=funny.gif][sm=funny.gif][sm=funny.gif][sm=funny.gif][sm=funny.gif]



URForgiven -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 9:16:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

quote:

he question has always been not whether we confess and repent, but what does it truly mean to confess and repent, and how is that accomplished.


This hasn't ever been the question. If we all agreed that confession and repentance were a part of being holy (hence the thread title) there wouldn't be a debate of any kind. It's not just my interpretation.......

Are you now saying that confession and repentance are a part of a believer's continuing walk? If so, rileykins will have a fit that you switched sides[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]


What we are saying is that you do not confess and repent in order to get forgiven or to stay in fellowship with God. Thats all.



deliveredarling -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 9:20:08 PM)

uh oh, Ineed to give my prize back[sm=crystreams.gif]



URForgiven -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 9:22:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

uh oh, Ineed to give my prize back[sm=crystreams.gif]


Thought so, and we were getting along so well too...[&:]



deliveredarling -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 9:38:39 PM)

quote:

What we are saying is that you do not confess and repent in order to get forgiven or to stay in fellowship with God. Thats all.


I know that this is something I have to do in order to stay in fellowship with God. I know who I am ( precious child of God) and what I am (COG with flesh). I don't question that I am forgiven, I know it. However, there will be a day when I have to stand before Him and answer for my choices, those that I did not confess or repent for. Not only will I suffer the consequences here on earth, I will suffer the eternal consequences in heaven (loss of rewards). So I must, here on earth be very aware of how I choose to live( by listening to the HS or rejecting it by living in the flesh) and the choices I make while here, for this reason. Not to mention what effect my walk here has on others, who I influence, how I influence them, what I teach, what I don't teach. It is not a matter of unbelief at all. I believe, I believe, I believe.



URForgiven -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 9:52:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

quote:

What we are saying is that you do not confess and repent in order to get forgiven or to stay in fellowship with God. Thats all.


I know that this is something I have to do in order to stay in fellowship with God. I know who I am ( precious child of God) and what I am (COG with flesh). I don't question that I am forgiven, I know it. However, there will be a day when I have to stand before Him and answer for my choices, those that I did not confess or repent for. Not only will I suffer the consequences here on earth, I will suffer the eternal consequences in heaven (loss of rewards). So I must, here on earth be very aware of how I choose to live( by listening to the HS or rejecting it by living in the flesh) and the choices I make while here, for this reason. Not to mention what effect my walk here has on others, who I influence, how I influence them, what I teach, what I don't teach. It is not a matter of unbelief at all. I believe, I believe, I believe.


I understand DD. I am compelled by the Spirit to share the truth. The same Spirit that constrains me in other ways. It is that same Spirits job to convince both you and I.

I have seen great change in you in just the little time I have known you here. It is a process, this learning about all we actually already have in Christ. I am confident you will continue to change as you grow in grace.

Peace



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Be Holy? (5/11/2008 9:56:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

I know that this is something I have to do in order to stay in fellowship with God. I know who I am ( precious child of God) and what I am (COG with flesh). I don't question that I am forgiven, I know it. However, there will be a day when I have to stand before Him and answer for my choices, those that I did not confess or repent for. Not only will I suffer the consequences here on earth, I will suffer the eternal consequences in heaven (loss of rewards). So I must, here on earth be very aware of how I choose to live( by listening to the HS or rejecting it by living in the flesh) and the choices I make while here, for this reason. Not to mention what effect my walk here has on others, who I influence, how I influence them, what I teach, what I don't teach. It is not a matter of unbelief at all. I believe, I believe, I believe.


And, the most important thing we will have to answer for is did we love with God's agape love. All else, including our motives will be tested by that.....



Page: <<   < prev  7 8 [9] 10 11   next >   >>



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI