The Fear Of God (Full Version)

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cognitivemagic -> The Fear Of God (5/5/2008 5:37:09 PM)

King Solomon wisely said:

"The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom"

And I take "wisdom" to mean more than merely a speculative, philosophical understanding of God; instead, it's that mystical knowledge of God that is the mark of the first phase in our relationship with Him.

Men and women who are fearful of the Living God, do not stand on the "outside" of the love of God; on the contrary, they are the ones who are living, most especially, inside the love of God, though it doesn't feel like it to them.

And so the first enticement to salvation is fear. And our persistence in virtue and love is motivated by fear.

Fear is the initial discipline that God the Father invokes to grab our attention and move us along in our growth into the Kingdom of God.



Liveloved -> RE: The Fear Of God (5/6/2008 12:18:12 AM)

Yes. Wanting to respond. Enjoying and agreeing with your thoughts. So just a hearty YES. [:)]



abraxas -> RE: The Fear Of God (5/6/2008 1:05:25 AM)

Fear can cloud judgment. I don't see how it should factor into a respectable epistemology.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: The Fear Of God (5/6/2008 2:50:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas

Fear can cloud judgment. I don't see how it should factor into a respectable epistemology.



It's not fear like you'd have of the dark, but a type of fear wrapped around reverence... Awe... A respectful fear of the Almighty...

John



JimboFletch -> RE: The Fear Of God (5/6/2008 11:54:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas

Fear can cloud judgment. I don't see how it should factor into a respectable epistemology.



It's not fear like you'd have of the dark, but a type of fear wrapped around reverence... Awe... A respectful fear of the Almighty...

John

I agree. The Bible isn't talking about an angry cosmic cop figure just waiting for you to slip so He can smash you like we might a cockroach in our kitchen. It's that of a loving heavenly Father or Abba who also is holy, omniscient, and omnipotent. He is worthy of GREAT AWE and honor but, in Christ, He should not terrify us.



McFatty -> RE: The Fear Of God (5/6/2008 12:04:49 PM)

I wonder how this verse relates to this topic.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love." - 1 John 4:18

It seems we either love God or fear God.



1love1God1way -> RE: The Fear Of God (5/6/2008 12:10:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty

I wonder how this verse relates to this topic.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love." - 1 John 4:18

It seems we either love God or fear God.


Wrong type of fear.



abraxas -> RE: The Fear Of God (5/6/2008 12:20:03 PM)

Maybe it's time to define our terms.

I for one am confused. [&:][:D]



McFatty -> RE: The Fear Of God (5/6/2008 12:23:28 PM)

1 John 4:18 uses the same Greek word for fear, "phobos", which is the root word of the English "phobia", as 2 Corinthians 5:11

"Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences."

It seems to be the same fear.



1love1God1way -> RE: The Fear Of God (5/6/2008 1:39:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty

1 John 4:18 uses the same Greek word for fear, "phobos", which is the root word of the English "phobia", as 2 Corinthians 5:11

"Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences."

It seems to be the same fear.


Context is king, not just the Greek.



McFatty -> RE: The Fear Of God (5/6/2008 1:44:10 PM)

I suppose I just don't understand how "fear" can mean anything but "fear". What do we fear about God? According to the text, it cannot be punishment. That is my point, I suppose.



mvic -> RE: The Fear Of God (5/6/2008 2:47:54 PM)

I suppose the first thing to consider is how the individual sees his God.

Is He a punishing headmaster? Or a forgiving loving friend or father?

Different people build their own relationships with God, and there are some I know who actually fear Him and fear His displeasure and punishment.

Over the years Christian teachings has described God as a loving Father we should respect and love in return.

OK ... assuming this is so: (and believe me I don't meant to be disrespectful or insulting with my next question).

If you had absolute proof that there was no hell ... no punishment and no retribution whatsoever for your deeds on this earth. How many people would still love, respect and honour God?

Is fear a motivator in our relationship with God? It shouldn't be; but is it?



1love1God1way -> RE: The Fear Of God (5/6/2008 2:53:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

Is He a punishing headmaster? Or a forgiving loving friend or father?



The answer is yes.



JimboFletch -> RE: The Fear Of God (5/6/2008 2:58:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

I suppose the first thing to consider is how the individual sees his God.

Is He a punishing headmaster? Or a forgiving loving friend or father?

Different people build their own relationships with God, and there are some I know who actually fear Him and fear His displeasure and punishment.

Over the years Christian teachings has described God as a loving Father we should respect and love in return.

OK ... assuming this is so: (and believe me I don't meant to be disrespectful or insulting with my next question).

If you had absolute proof that there was no hell ... no punishment and no retribution whatsoever for your deeds on this earth. How many people would still love, respect and honour God?

Is fear a motivator in our relationship with God? It shouldn't be; but is it?

Would you love a spouse more deeply because of the possibility that they could run off with a multi-millionaire if they wanted or could you still manage to love them passionately just because they loved you first?



CherishedbyGod -> RE: The Fear Of God (5/6/2008 7:49:46 PM)

Posting blind but I like what one commentator says:

It is a reverance for God coupled with a hatred for evil....



SovereignIsHe -> RE: The Fear Of God (5/6/2008 8:37:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty

I suppose I just don't understand how "fear" can mean anything but "fear". What do we fear about God? According to the text, it cannot be punishment. That is my point, I suppose.


Maybe this will help...

1 Peter 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

Here we have fear being used to asure that it's understood who is at the top regarding the pecking order...

As well... The OP's verse says, FEAR of God is connected to wisdom... So we have the bible itself giving us an idea that the fear we normally deal with isn't the same in regard to God and that point is made as well by those who don't believe in God... How can they, they don't believe He can destroy both body and soul. Believers understand that, and believe it, the bible says to fear the One that can do that... Because we know that He's our Lord and Savior we do not fear Him like the dark, because we know He loves us. This all leads to AWE... Reverence... Respect... Fear of God as much as anything is a clue to just how much we are not Him and just how much higher His ways are...

John



Amped88 -> RE: The Fear Of God (5/6/2008 9:13:09 PM)

I fear the word epistemology, because i dont know what it means or how anyone could use that word in a daily conversation!! [;)]
quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas

Fear can cloud judgment. I don't see how it should factor into a respectable epistemology.



abraxas -> RE: The Fear Of God (5/7/2008 1:29:58 AM)

Epistemology deals with knowledge, how we arrive at it, the relation between knowledge and belief, things like that.



Amped88 -> RE: The Fear Of God (5/7/2008 8:55:12 AM)

Thank you for the realitive definition of the word Epistemology abraxas. Tho I don't believe I could just pop out with it in a daily conversation without having to think about it awhile first and hope that i can use it and it would fit in the topic of the moment [;)]



abraxas -> RE: The Fear Of God (5/7/2008 10:36:36 AM)

You're welcome, and it's an interesting idea to think about. The wikipedia article is a good one. epistemology

CognitiveMagic, if I understand him correctly, is suggesting that fear of God is an important step to coming to a 'knowledge of God' (as he defines 'wisdom'). So I'm seeing this in this way: I'm afraid of the consequences of not believing in God (i.e., eternal Hell), so I will believe that God exists. I hope I'm not misrepresenting what he has written, but if I have it right it is a dubious epistemology.

SovereignIsHe has taken 'fear' in a different light, to mean 'respect', 'reverence', and 'awe'. Personally I like that interpretation better. But again this type of 'fear' cannot account for one's belief in God, since this type implies that belief is already in place. As SIH pointed out, how can a non-believer have respect and awe for something it doesn't believe in?

It seems that SIH also sees 'wisdom' as 'wisdom' and not as 'knowledge', which means that the OP's verse from Solomon doesn't make a strong case for how we come to our beliefs/knowledge, but instead points to wisdom. Though I'm not a believer, I would say that within a Christian context that holds up better. How that belief is derived is found elsewhere. CM and SIH correct me if I'm wrong, I hope I haven't misrepresented your positions.



cognitivemagic -> RE: The Fear Of God (5/7/2008 4:00:24 PM)

Jesus Christ put it this way:

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both body and soul in hell."
(Matthew 10:28 NKJV)

Likewise, St. Paul said:

"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"(Phil. 2:12)

Or what of King David:

"Do not cast me away from Your presence and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me." (Psalm 51:11)

Now, as we are all in the "beginning" stage of our salvation, then it is right to "fear" and "be afraid" of God. How else is a person going to repent if he/she feels that he/she can continue sinning without consequence:

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21)

It is easy, in our present age, to fall into these works. Therefore, it is prudent to fear having run our race in vain, like St. Paul did.

Fear makes us humble. When we come to God we can only plead and beg for His mercy, which He may grant. On the other hand, we can be presumptious, proud and arrogant in regards to the mercy of God. And Jesus foretold of such people:

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" (Matthew 7:21-23)

It is believers, not unbelievers, who grow afraid in their hearts when contemplating the holy, righteous and good judgements of God. If people in the Old Testament did not escape the judgement of God, then why would we think that we will, if we persist is the same sort of unbelief that they did.

Yes, "perfect love casts out fear". But consider that perfect "Love" also uses fear as a disciplinary measure to impart and make holy, the creatures whom He deeply cares for; especially in the early stages of spiritual growth. Just like a good Doctor will warn his patient about unhealthy living that will decrease his/her chance of living a long and fruitful life.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: The Fear Of God (5/7/2008 7:43:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas


SovereignIsHe has taken 'fear' in a different light, to mean 'respect', 'reverence', and 'awe'. Personally I like that interpretation better. But again this type of 'fear' cannot account for one's belief in God, since this type implies that belief is already in place. As SIH pointed out, how can a non-believer have respect and awe for something it doesn't believe in?

It seems that SIH also sees 'wisdom' as 'wisdom' and not as 'knowledge', which means that the OP's verse from Solomon doesn't make a strong case for how we come to our beliefs/knowledge, but instead points to wisdom. Though I'm not a believer, I would say that within a Christian context that holds up better. How that belief is derived is found elsewhere. CM and SIH correct me if I'm wrong, I hope I haven't misrepresented your positions.


Works for me... Regardsing wisdom and knowledge you are correct... People can have knowledge of God and His Word, yet be void of any biblical wisdom...

The fear stems from belief and biblical understanding of God in His complete sense, so you are correct in that you see that a non-believer is without fear of God, and a quick search of God's word will find scripture to support that point. Men beat Jesus with their fists without an ounce of fear in them... Simply amazing... He stood there... That truth alone is enough...

It's like this... You come to realize after God changes your way of thinking of just who God is and without a doubt there is this fear(firmly grounded in respect and awe) that comes over you because now these truths(about God and His word) confront your past sensibilities and you trembled at what you used to believe and thank God that He pulled you from the pit of filth your were in… He created everything, He has no start, no end... Isn't bound by time, or the will of man... He's perfect and His will is done... And like it was posted, only He can destroy both body and soul...

John



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