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RE: Do You Struggle? - 5/8/2008 7:43:49 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 604
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Salvation is the receiving of eternal life, that eternal life is in Jesus Christ. If you say that you can loose your salvation, then you are calling God a liar. For you are saying that the life God gives and we accept at salvation is not eternal, but temporal, making God out to be a liar. There is no way around it.
Again Paul says there is. If it couldn't happen, then why is it even addressed? What is so hard to understands that we love the self? We can choose self over God and do, do this. It's called sin..... We can choose to walk away from Him. You can't just ignore the scriptures that don't line up with your belief. We have to take it all in context and it paints a very different picture than the one you would like to solely believe.
When you take the Pauline scriptures in context you see that there is nothing there about one losing their salvation. Quite the opposite.
Eternal life is just that...eternal. God does not lie.
Peace
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Do You Struggle? - 5/8/2008 7:57:05 AM
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deliveredarling
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Please tell me what Hebrews 6:1-8 means.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Do You Struggle? - 5/8/2008 8:29:19 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 604
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Please tell me what Hebrews 6:1-8 means.
This is addressing those who hear the message, but do not accept it. Those who have tasted, but have not drank. They have never repented of their unbelief. You cannot be brought back to where you have never been.
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Do You Struggle? - 5/8/2008 8:32:04 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3685
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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quote:
Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
Hbr 6:2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
Hbr 6:3 And this we will do, if God permits.
Hbr 6:4 For in the case of those Hbr 6:7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
Hbr 6:8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
How does this jive with the prodigal son? The scripture about us not being seperated from God? You can take any scripture and make any dopctrine from it but if you don't take the entirity of scripture into account on every doctrinal point, you can't make any point.
This scripture also proves my point.
quote:
who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Hbr 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Hbr 6:6 and {then} have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
It says you can't be Holy Spirit indwellt and fall away because to do so would mean you would have to crucify Christ again. You can distance yourself a long ways, without completely falling away, just as the prodigal son did. He went away and he came back. He knew his father ( as we know the Father), decided his ways were best and found out they weren't. He came back.
We all do this. Every sin is a seperation from God in a sence.
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But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. 10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure.
There is nothing I have said that disagrees with this. Its not a statement that we can lose our salvation. Its a statement of encouragement to endure to the end, to win the race.
We can be saved and going to heaven and live a hell on earth because we are not obediant
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For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins
No Holy Spirit indwellt person can sin without conviction from the Holy Spirit. This is all this says.
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This is apostasy and we can walk away. To say that we can't is false. We have free will.
Sorry but you do not have free will if you are Holy Spirit indwellt. You cannot walk away from God. You can sin, no doubt. You can blow God off for a time, no question but a saved person cannot unsave himself or what Jesus did on the cross is meaningless.
Jesus saved us through the cross. Jesus saves.
quote:
The "easy believism" or "sloppay agape
I don't know about your walk. I do know to be Holy Spirit indwellt is NOT easy. My beliefs are NOT an excuse to sin.
My beliefs are in recognition of who God is, who I am not, who is in control, and the fact I am not perfect. You aren't either. I was saved by God, not my will power. Not some free will choice. By God. I can't keep my salvation without God. I can't do good without God. All glory for all good things goes to God, 100% of the time.
I ain't sittin' around waitin' for God to cure my sins. I work at it too. The bible says to. I just know I can't overcome them without God. Its by His power. I supply the submission...with His help. He supplies the power.
Any works based gospel is heresy. Its getting the cart before the horse. Yes, we have works but these come from salvation, they do not keep it. All of our works come from God. If we have to do works to keep our salvation then Christ climbed the cross for nothing. We should all be under the Law.
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I know for myself, I'd begun to wonder why when I witnessed to people telling them about God's love and how they could be forgiven, why it didn't seem to convict
Because its not your job to convict anyone. Its the Holy Spirit's job. Either they are not part of the Elect ( something we can never know I think ) or the Holy Spirit isn't done bringing them to the Lord yet.
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I find that Jesus Christ was very plain with His speach, "Repent, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."
Jesus also know His audience better than we do. I'm not trying to be mean here or anything but it seems you are suggesting we all should go the street preacher route to witnessing. It does have its place, but don't you think most people have heard the hellfire and damnation sermons?
I am not sure that is an effective witness.
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As long as you have that free car and are on good terms with Him you can drive it anywhere. You are assured that He will always fill up the tank, have it serviced, and keep it clean. But when you rebel, and refuse to follow the terms of service, the car is recinded. The car will ALWAYS be a car, it will always be serviced by Him, always clean--but you, may reject it.
This would be living in constant fear....or you must rdefine sin into something it is not. You essentially are saying if we sin we go to hell.
Let me tell ya...no one can reject God once they know Him. No one. Its impossible. Once God is in you, you cannot seperate yourself from Him.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Do You Struggle? - 5/8/2008 8:38:05 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3685
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
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There have been times in my walk I have been so under conviction I wanted to throw it all away.
There's been times its been so much hell I hated myself and the sin I do.
I hated going to church because I was a hypocrit. I should be the immoral brother excommunicated for my sins.
I can tell ya...I could NOT walk away. No matter how bad it gets God is ALWAYS there calling me. Encouraging me. Helping me. Making my mistakes into good things. Tempering me.
I
can
not
walk
away.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Do You Struggle? - 5/8/2008 8:58:44 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 973
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Please see MH commentary here regarding apostasy:
http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/mhc/Hbr/Hbr006.html
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Do You Struggle? - 5/8/2008 10:31:03 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3685
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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Its rather humorous that people say we shouldn't listen to some pastor or author about doctrine and then offer up one as proof of their perfect doctrine. Not that you did this deliveredarling but in another thread someone actually did this.
A big lol.
The reason why I said that is because theologians don't hold much weight with me. I didn't come to this conclusion willy nilly or from a stance of weakness. I was a free will person for a while. Its just balogna.
Dress up balogna in any form and its still balogna. Well spoken arguements mean little.
By the way, and I don't think you are doing this, but suggesting study, is a way of calling someone ignorant.
I have seen them all.
Ok I read some..until I came to this deal breaker....
quote:
3. The doctrine of baptisms, that is, of being baptized by a minister of Christ with water, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, as the initiating sign or seal of the covenant of grace, strongly engaging the person so baptized to get acquainted with the new covenant, to adhere to it, and prepare to renew it at the table of the Lord and sincerely to regulate himself according to it, relying upon the truth and faithfulness of God for the blessings contained in it. And the doctrine of an inward baptism, that of the Spirit sprinkling the blood of Christ upon the soul, for justification, and the graces of the Spirit for sanctification. This ordinance of baptism is a foundation to be rightly laid, and daily remembered, but not repeated.
4. Laying on of hands, on persons passing solemnly from their initiated state by baptism to the confirmed state
This essentially says that baptism is the first step in salvation.
Sorry but that is bolonga personified.
There is nothing more to argue since you have proven to be a works based believer.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Do You Struggle? - 5/8/2008 12:18:00 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 973
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Wrong again. Reread it.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Do You Struggle? - 5/8/2008 12:54:06 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 973
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The whole point of presenting the commentary was to explain what apostasy is. You said that the Hebrews scripture does not mean what it says. I showed you that it did. You took it to define a works based salvation, which is not even the topic. If you don't like that particular commentary, pick one. The Blue Letter Bible has quite a few different commentaries.
As for using them, I'm not bible scholar, so I need help sometimes in scripture explanation. I also use a Jewish New Testament Commentary, so that I can get a full picture, not just what one author has to say. I find it to be responsible studying.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Do You Struggle? - 5/8/2008 1:45:14 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 604
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
The whole point of presenting the commentary was to explain what apostasy is. You said that the Hebrews scripture does not mean what it says. I showed you that it did. You took it to define a works based salvation, which is not even the topic. If you don't like that particular commentary, pick one. The Blue Letter Bible has quite a few different commentaries.
As for using them, I'm not bible scholar, so I need help sometimes in scripture explanation. I also use a Jewish New Testament Commentary, so that I can get a full picture, not just what one author has to say. I find it to be responsible studying.
You showed what one man says it is. And any other commentary is just another mans opinion. Do not believe what anyone tells you, including myself. Go into the word and let God show you the truth.
DD, you simply leave no room for the Holy Spirit to work in you. It is He, the Holy Spirit who will lead you into all truth...if you let Him.
Peace
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Do You Struggle? - 5/8/2008 2:07:24 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 143
Joined: 4/28/2008
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I believe in OSAS. I got a question for you. Did you deserve salvation before you received it? (the answer should be no) (For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God). Ok now for question Number 2. Do you deserve salvation now (once you are saved)? (the answer should be no) (By Grace are you saved). What is Grace? Recieving something you don't deserve. That should end it right there. Also the term ETERNAL life should end it as well.
< Message edited by AboundinginHisGrace -- 5/8/2008 2:13:43 PM >
_____________________________
" 'O Lord God. You have begun to show Your servant Your greatness and Your Mighty hand, for what god is there in heaven or on earth who can do anything like Your works and Your mighty deeds?" Deuteronomy 3:24
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RE: Do You Struggle? - 5/8/2008 2:25:29 PM
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Teaching_The_Way
Posts: 26
Joined: 4/18/2006
From: SunnyDays Town & Country
Status: offline
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Well Friend/Brother
It sounds like you are "starting" to discover the truth about Jesus Teachings and scriptures. I wish more churches and Christians would pay allot more attention to Jesus Teachigngs as well instead of ignoreing his teachings like so many do. Teaching The Full Gospel of Jesus Christ, is not only teaching Gods love, Grace and Mercy, but it is also teaching Gods Wrath, and Judgment as well.
Many scriptures are widely ignored with this new found so-called modern evangelism and creates so many false (Christians) converts of today. What was wrong with the OLD EVANGELISM that Jesus, Paul, Peter, John etc taught? Wasn't it good enough to get the message of God out and warn people of Gods wrath and judgement?
After 21 years I am thoroughly convinced that modern evangelism is no more than a modern day occult that is designed to take people away from Jesus teachings (The Full Gospel) of Christ with their soft and entertaining messages that are sending people to hell instead of heaven.
Well Friend you are on the road to truth as long as you pay more attention to All of Jesus Teachings in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Revealations 1,2 and 3.
God Bless :)
_____________________________
http://teachingtheway.net/
2 Timothy 3:2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents , unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, ....
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Not by human effort - 5/8/2008 2:29:39 PM
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Teaching_The_Way
Posts: 26
Joined: 4/18/2006
From: SunnyDays Town & Country
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Hello friend, here is some helpful scripture.
Galatians 3:3-4
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort ?
4 Have you suffered so much for nothing — if it really was for nothing?
NIV
_____________________________
http://teachingtheway.net/
2 Timothy 3:2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents , unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, ....
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Drawn to Christ - 5/8/2008 2:36:48 PM
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Teaching_The_Way
Posts: 26
Joined: 4/18/2006
From: SunnyDays Town & Country
Status: offline
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So many churches and Christians of today ignore Predestination, Election and that no one can come to Jesus Christ unless God draws them. Jesus, the NT and the OT is filled with loads of scriptures to back up what I said and yet those scriptures are not comfortable to the churches, so thats one reason why they are rejected.
John 6:44
44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
NIV
_____________________________
http://teachingtheway.net/
2 Timothy 3:2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents , unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, ....
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RE: Drawn to Christ - 5/8/2008 2:45:29 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 973
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teaching the way, who are you referring to?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Drawn to Christ - 5/8/2008 3:19:00 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 143
Joined: 4/28/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Teaching_The_Way
So many churches and Christians of today ignore Predestination, Election and that no one can come to Jesus Christ unless God draws them. Jesus, the NT and the OT is filled with loads of scriptures to back up what I said and yet those scriptures are not comfortable to the churches, so thats one reason why they are rejected.
John 6:44
44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
NIV
You are right the Lord must confict you before you receive him. But that is not the issue here.
_____________________________
" 'O Lord God. You have begun to show Your servant Your greatness and Your Mighty hand, for what god is there in heaven or on earth who can do anything like Your works and Your mighty deeds?" Deuteronomy 3:24
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RE: Drawn to Christ - 5/8/2008 3:21:33 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 973
Status: offline
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The issue is struggling with sin and how we all do it. It seems to have veered from the actual topic though.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Do You Struggle? - 5/8/2008 5:00:48 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1072
Joined: 1/22/2008
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quote:
The more I walk with God, The more my relationship with God gets stronger the more I am tempted to sin. I am active in my church, hold a bible study in my home and love the lord with all my heart. I am 44 and just lately have been tempted to shoplift. honestly do not have a clue where this has come from. I t is a strong desire when I go into a store. My husband makes very good money and I can buy what ever I want. This has become disturbing to me. And I recently acted on the temptation. I have prayed for forgiveness and and feel as though I have let down God.
Heavenbound,
The closer you get to Jesus, the more satan is after you. He leaves those who are his alone. Confess your sin to a trusted friend and have them praying for you and holding you accountable. Let others bear this burden with you and for you. Greater is He that is in YOU than he that is in the world. Jesus is victor. He will defeat satan in this as well. Believe and be blessed!  LL
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