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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/10/2008 12:38:23 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 6799
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Well the rub of it is... how many of the people in this thread claiming evolution and science ultimately lead to racist conclusions or immorality have honestly examined all the results of their belief system? They will decry evolution as evil, then ignore all the abortion clinic bombings, all the christian terrorism thats occurred throughout the world, and on and on. But those people just weren't really Christian... but Hitler was an evolutionist by God!! It's unfathomable to me and one of the most aggravating things I have ever seen.
Well, feel free to fill us in; what is the total number of abortion clinic bombings, and how may people have died as the result of 'Christian' terrorism?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/10/2008 12:48:53 AM
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drj11
Posts: 566
Joined: 3/29/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Well the rub of it is... how many of the people in this thread claiming evolution and science ultimately lead to racist conclusions or immorality have honestly examined all the results of their belief system? They will decry evolution as evil, then ignore all the abortion clinic bombings, all the christian terrorism thats occurred throughout the world, and on and on. But those people just weren't really Christian... but Hitler was an evolutionist by God!! It's unfathomable to me and one of the most aggravating things I have ever seen.
Well, feel free to fill us in; what is the total number of abortion clinic bombings, and how may people have died as the result of 'Christian' terrorism?
Try looking reading up on Christian terrorism.. there's plenty of info out there. Ironically, many of them are defined and driven by white supremacy... the stuff evolution is supposed to bring out in people, according to some here. Look at India especially. Christian terrorism is out of control there, and its all about converting people by gun point. Modern day crusades.
A few Christian terrorist groups... Google them.
Christian Identity
Army of God
Christian Patriots
Lambs on Christ
KKK
IRA
< Message edited by drj11 -- 5/10/2008 12:58:36 AM >
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/10/2008 8:21:35 AM
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Agahnim
Posts: 205
Joined: 2/27/2008
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quote:
Well, feel free to fill us in; what is the total number of abortion clinic bombings, and how may people have died as the result of 'Christian' terrorism?
Does Christian terrorism include the crusades in the middle ages, or is this limited to modern stuff?
_____________________________
"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." --Mahatma Gandhi
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/10/2008 9:09:07 AM
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Veritas
Posts: 500
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well, feel free to fill us in; what is the total number of abortion clinic bombings, and how may people have died as the result of 'Christian' terrorism?
How many murders does it take before Christian terrorism is unacceptable?
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/10/2008 10:23:23 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 647
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
You do realize that the primary ideas that inform racism arose during the supposed 'Enlightenment'?
But not as a direct result of Enlightenment logic, nor as a direct result of the theory of evolution.
You still haven't addressed my counter to your argument; I guess that says it all.
< Message edited by 1dblthnk02 -- 5/10/2008 10:29:39 AM >
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/10/2008 4:45:26 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6799
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
But not as a direct result of Enlightenment logic, nor as a direct result of the theory of evolution.
There is no such thing as 'Enlightenment logic'
quote:
You still haven't addressed my counter to your argument; I guess that says it all.
The fact that there are violent religious sects which associate themselves with Christianity doesn't 'counter' the notion that evolution has influenced acceptance of racism, eugenics and atheism.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/10/2008 10:29:04 PM
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Real_Solitude
Posts: 331
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
The fact that there are violent religious sects which associate themselves with Christianity doesn't 'counter' the notion that evolution has influenced acceptance of racism, eugenics and atheism.
No, it proves that people are people and that some of them will distort and ruin anything they can get their filthy little paws on. If proves that it doesn't matter if racism and eugenics are at all influenced by evolution, because the same things have been influenced by religion. It proves that it's not the influence that matters, but that the people who have the idea will take any influence they can to justify it.
_____________________________
"Instead of feeling alone in a group its better to have real solitude all by yourself."
~Faye Valentine
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/10/2008 11:02:40 PM
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searcher1
Posts: 57
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Jack, I'm enamored by the lovely lady at your side. You lucky dog. Lonely boy... ahhh, I mean real solitude, you need to get you a lovely lady like Jack..... It's not good to spend your time alone...
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/11/2008 8:06:43 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6799
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
No, it proves that people are people and that some of them will distort and ruin anything they can get their filthy little paws on. If proves that it doesn't matter if racism and eugenics are at all influenced by evolution, because the same things have been influenced by religion. It proves that it's not the influence that matters, but that the people who have the idea will take any influence they can to justify it.
I agree that sinful human nature has the capacity to twist any idea.
But I also think it is notable that eugenics sprung up as a product of the work of the scientist (and cousin of Darwin) Francis Galton very shortly after the publication of The Origin of Species. And Darwin's first son Leonard was President of the the First International Eugenics Conference. So it doesn't seem very reasonable to say that Eugenics is a case where Darwin's ideas were corrupted over time, but rather that it is a direct result of Darwin's theory.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/12/2008 10:33:17 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 647
Joined: 3/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
There is no such thing as 'Enlightenment logic'
Bad choice of words. What I was refering to was the emphasis of reason over religious doctrine. You implied that racism was a direct result of the Enlightenment (don't tell me you didn't). You don't seem to be arguing very hard against a reversal back to the Dark Ages wherein church doctrine dictated logic.
quote:
The fact that there are violent religious sects which associate themselves with Christianity doesn't 'counter' the notion that evolution has influenced acceptance of racism, eugenics and atheism.
? . . . I said nothing about violent sects of anything. Are you confusing my posts with someone else's?
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/12/2008 10:43:29 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 6799
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Bad choice of words. What I was refering to was the emphasis of reason over religious doctrine. You implied that racism was a direct result of the Enlightenment (don't tell me you didn't). You don't seem to be arguing very hard against a reversal back to the Dark Ages wherein church doctrine dictated logic
Ideas about the differences and distinctions of race were the result of Enlightenment thinking, that is a simple fact - indeed, it was the result of the same sort of naturalistic thinking from whence Darwin's theory sprung.
As far as 'reversal back to the Dark Ages', you are speaking alarmist nonsense of course. Nothing I have said suggests I think we should subject science (or religious thought, for that matter) to a monolithic, autocratic, centralized religious organization.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/12/2008 11:02:20 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 647
Joined: 3/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Nothing I have said suggests I think we should subject science (or religious thought, for that matter) to a monolithic, autocratic, centralized religious organization.
Yes, you did (at last we get back on track!):
"science should be never be used as the primary basis for social, civil, or political understanding."
If we never use science to help settle a crucial issue such as racism, then there is no basis to fight the notion. We may as well carry on as if there really are higher and lower subspecies of humans because we disregard the scientific evidence to the contrary.
We could also disregard any scientific findings about pregnancy (there goes many of the pro-life photos/data), nutrition, medicine, global warming . . . oh, wait-- that's right. We are already ignore the scientific evidence regarding global warming because we would rather attack Al Gore's character.
Or , in this thread, we can just attack Darwin's character, or Watson's character, ad hominem ad infinitum . . .
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/12/2008 11:08:54 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 6799
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Yes, you did (at last we get back on track!):
"science should be never be used as the primary basis for social, civil, or political understanding."
If we never use science to help settle a crucial issue such as racism, then there is no basis to fight the notion. We may as well carry on as if there really are higher and lower subspecies of humans because we disregard the scientific evidence to the contrary.
I said it should never be used as the primary basis for social, civil, or political understanding - I don't know what sort of English you studied, but that statement doesn't say such a basis should be 'religious', or that another basis should be 'primary'.
And as MLK showed us, there are a number of basis by which we can battle racism.
quote:
We could also disregard any scientific findings about pregnancy (there goes many of the pro-life photos/data), nutrition, medicine, global warming . . . oh, wait-- that's right. We are already ignore the scientific evidence regarding global warming because we would rather attack Al Gore's character.
Or , in this thread, we can just attack Darwin's character, or Watson's character, ad hominem ad infinitum . . .
Well again, your poor langauge skills have set you off on a tangent. I never said we should 'disregard science', merely that there are always other considerations which must play a substantive part in our decisions and policies.
Please read more carefully in the future.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/12/2008 11:21:12 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 647
Joined: 3/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I don't know what sort of English you studied, but that statement doesn't say such a basis should be 'religious', or that another basis should be 'primary'.
I don't know whose posts you are reading. I didn't say "religious" or "primary."
quote:
And as MLK showed us, there are a number of basis by which we can battle racism.
Why should we battle racism as long as we ignore the scientific evidence against it?
quote:
I never said we should 'disregard science', merely that there are always other considerations which must play a substantive part in our decisions and policies.
You said that it should never be a primary basis for social, civil, or political understanding, when in fact there times when it should be primary.
quote:
Please read more carefully in the future.
Oh, that's not possible for someone of my obvious language deficiency . . .
< Message edited by 1dblthnk02 -- 5/12/2008 11:57:14 AM >
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/12/2008 12:01:08 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6799
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
I don't know whose posts you are reading. I didn't say "religious" or "primary."
You quoted me; I said primary. Perhaps you missed it.
quote:
Why should we battle racism as long as we ignore the scientific evidence against it?
The question I am concerned about it is, “Should we encourage racism if the science supports it?”
quote:
You said that it should never be a primary basis for social, civil, or political understanding, when in fact there times when it should be primary.
It should never be primary, because science is always changing – indeed, if one has a proper understanding of science, one knows it never can actually be primary.
If you argue that science should be primary today because the current findings are antagonistic to racism, and tomorrow research indicates a fundamental difference between races, then by your logic, tomorrow racism is justified. I think this is wrong thinking.
quote:
Oh, that's not possible for someone of my obvious language deficiency . . .
Perhaps not, but others will tell you I am an optimist.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/12/2008 1:26:36 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 800
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
The question I am concerned about it is, “Should we encourage racism if the science supports it?”
How would that even be possible? A study that demonstrates an IQ gap between Kanakaks and Uighirs supports the idea that there is an IQ gap between those two peoples.
The same goes for a height gap, or a melanin gap, or a difference in the average value of quantity X between two groups.
Even if this gap were strongly suggested to be genetic or biological, this would not support the idea that one group is inferior, or that one group is a natural slave race, or that one group should be ostracized, or that prejudice against that group would be justified.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/12/2008 1:36:50 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6799
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
How would that even be possible? A study that demonstrates an IQ gap between Kanakaks and Uighirs supports the idea that there is an IQ gap between those two peoples.
The same goes for a height gap, or a melanin gap, or a difference in the average value of quantity X between two groups.
Even if this gap were strongly suggested to be genetic or biological, this would not support the idea that one group is inferior, or that one group is a natural slave race, or that one group should be ostracized, or that prejudice against that group would be justified.
It is conceivably still a concern.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/12/2008 3:48:47 PM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 647
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
The question I am concerned about it is, “Should we encourage racism if the science supports it?”
But it doesn't support it. If something changes in the future, then this will be an issue.
quote:
It should never be primary, because science is always changing
So is every other standard that you consider "primary." Morals change, cultures change, religions change, philosophies change-- change is the only constant that we know of.
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If you argue that science should be primary today because the current findings are antagonistic to racism, and tomorrow research indicates a fundamental difference between races, then by your logic, tomorrow racism is justified.
But history has shown us the opposite: before science chimed in, racism was justified by philosophy, religion, law, and just about every other standard we could list.
Look at things for what they are, not for what they could have been.
quote:
Perhaps not, but others will tell you I am an optimist.
Sorry, but my deficient language skills bar me from understanding a big word like "optimist" . . .
Perhaps you should address me at the primer level of which you indicated I am constrained.
< Message edited by 1dblthnk02 -- 5/12/2008 3:55:09 PM >
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/12/2008 7:30:52 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6799
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
But it doesn't support it. If something changes in the future, then this will be an issue.
Well, as has been noted it has supported it in the past, and some scientists consider it valid now, so it would seem to be an issue.
quote:
But history has shown us the opposite: before science chimed in, racism was justified by philosophy, religion, law, and just about every other standard we could list.
Look at things for what they are, not for what they could have been.
Racism was based on the popular notions of naturalism in the last few centuries; that was as muh science as Darwin's theory.
quote:
Sorry, but my deficient language skills bar me from understanding a big word like "optimist" . . .
Perhaps you should address me at the primer level of which you indicated I am constrained.
Well, you'll just have to try your best to keep up.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/12/2008 7:35:14 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 473
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quote:
Well, feel free to fill us in; what is the total number of abortion clinic bombings, and how may people have died as the result of 'Christian' terrorism?
Does this include the Spanish Inquisition, and (later) the invasion of Mexico which led to thousands of natives being slaughtered by a people who saw them as inferior - not mention, loaded with gold?
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/12/2008 7:52:52 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6799
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Does this include the Spanish Inquisition, and (later) the invasion of Mexico which led to thousands of natives being slaughtered by a people who saw them as inferior - not mention, loaded with gold?
So are you claiming Spaniards were unusually violent people
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/12/2008 9:05:14 PM
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ianz
Posts: 412
Joined: 12/22/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Does this include the Spanish Inquisition, and (later) the invasion of Mexico which led to thousands of natives being slaughtered by a people who saw them as inferior - not mention, loaded with gold?
So are you claiming Spaniards were unusually violent people
I think this is rather skirting the point.
Evolution theory has proved that there is no difference between black humans and white humans, that we are all human. Sure, evolution theory has been wrongly used to backup racism. But before ToE, white man went around saying, hmm, like me but black = inferior.
Evolution theory does not in any way support racism. On the contrary, evolution theory has taught us that racism cannot be justified.
Regards, Ian
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/12/2008 9:31:48 PM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 647
Joined: 3/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well, as has been noted it has supported it in the past
The past is gone.
quote:
and some scientists consider it valid now
A valid concern, as in something that they don't want to see re-emerge.
quote:
Racism was based on the popular notions of naturalism in the last few centuries; that was as muh science as Darwin's theory.
And yet Darwin's theory somehow eventually led us to a conclusion that completely overturned centuries of common knowledge that told us that there were superior and inferior races of humans. Now, how do you suppose that happened?
quote:
Well, you'll just have to try your best to keep up.
Well, you know how science maintains that certain people like me are probably just genetically inferior and all . . .
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/12/2008 10:13:57 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6799
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
I think this is rather skirting the point.
Evolution theory has proved that there is no difference between black humans and white humans, that we are all human. Sure, evolution theory has been wrongly used to backup racism. But before ToE, white man went around saying, hmm, like me but black = inferior.
Evolution theory does not in any way support racism. On the contrary, evolution theory has taught us that racism cannot be justified.
Well, it is apparent some evolutionists, like Watson, still haven't got the message.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Evolution & Racism - 5/12/2008 10:24:19 PM
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ianz
Posts: 412
Joined: 12/22/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I think this is rather skirting the point.
Evolution theory has proved that there is no difference between black humans and white humans, that we are all human. Sure, evolution theory has been wrongly used to backup racism. But before ToE, white man went around saying, hmm, like me but black = inferior.
Evolution theory does not in any way support racism. On the contrary, evolution theory has taught us that racism cannot be justified.
Well, it is apparent some evolutionists, like Watson, still haven't got the message.
So? Plenty of 'Christians' haven't got the message either. Plenty of bad apples or misinformed people or misrepresented people in any camp.
Regards, Ian
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