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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/15/2008 12:09:08 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3190
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quote:
Man cannot make the change happen... It's beyond the ability of man to change himself and understand things of the Spriit... Yes, John, which is exactly why we have free grace!
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This is where God's grace comes in... Being that its unmerited favor God betows on whom He chooses and it's not given to those who attempt to make themselves worthy(your doctrine)... If it truly is His Loving favor, then He "bestows" it on everyone. But everyone has a choice, also given through that same free grace. We are not pawns in God's game of "Guess who I save today" (your doctrine).
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Clearly stated in the following....
2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Reiterated again...
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Wonderful verses, John, which clearly show it's the plan of salvation which is according to His Sovereignty, not our response to that plan. Sorry, but your faulty interpretation of Scripture is of little help here.
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Your doctrine falls short. I doesn't account for man's dead in sin state prior to salvation. Man doesn't wake up one day and go, "Gee I think I am going to love God and make myself worthy of salvation..." Your doctrine falls short. It doesn't account for God's grace in giving us the choice to love Him or not. God doesn't wake up one day and go, "Gee I think I am going to make so-and-so love me and forget all about that belief and faith stuff that I gave my Son to die for."
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As for "free will", it doesn't enable man to understand things of the Spirit. All the collective free will of mankind cannot give one person even a sneak peak of that which is spiritual. Correct, John, something we can agree on! However, the tiniest gram of grace God gives is all the whole world needs to be spiritually alive forever!
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Man must be changed to understand... To understand what, John. What actually does anyone have to understand if God does all the understanding for them?! I'll just accept Jesus at His Word in John 7:17.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/15/2008 12:31:58 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2862
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Yes, John, which is exactly why we have free grace!
Bible: Man prior to salvation: Dead in sin, not able to understand things of the Spirit
Bible; Man after salvation: New creature in Christ, able to understand things of the Spirit...
That's it... Man is either one or the other...
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If it truly is His Loving favor, then He "bestows" it on everyone.
The bible doesn't qualify it... The bible says...
Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
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But everyone has a choice, also given through that same free grace.
We are not pawns in God's game of "Guess who I save today" (your doctrine).
Oh really... What power do you believe you have to move the hand of God?
Daniel 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Isaiah 43:13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
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Wonderful verses, John, which clearly show it's the plan of salvation which is according to His Sovereignty, not our response to that plan. Sorry, but your faulty interpretation of Scripture is of little help here.
The verses plainly state that God does what He does according to His will, not based on the actions of man... You seem to be mixing the temporal with the eternal...
For the record, you offer ZERO interpretation of the Scripture, so your claim of faulty interpretation is rather weak...
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Your doctrine falls short. I doesn't account for man's dead in sin state prior to salvation. Man doesn't wake up one day and go, "Gee I think I am going to love God and make myself worthy of salvation..."
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Your doctrine falls short. It doesn't account for God's grace in giving us the choice to love Him or not.
Who is "US"?
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God doesn't wake up one day and go, "Gee I think I am going to make so-and-so love me and forget all about that belief and faith stuff that I gave my Son to die for."
Of course He doesn't... He did that before the foundation of the world... My doctrine is all about God's grace... Man is granted salvation based on NOTHING he does or doesn't do... Hence the term, SAVED... There is a reason it's spoken of as raising the dead...
If man chooses God before he is saved, than man isn't raised from the dead...
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Correct, John, something we can agree on! However, the tiniest gram of grace God gives is all the whole world needs to be spiritually alive forever!
The world is never and will never be spiritually alive forever... Man is born dead and untill raised from the dead, is, well... Dead...
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To understand what, John. What actually does anyone have to understand if God does all the understanding for them?!
Things of the Spirit... You can play all the games you wish, but the bible is clear man apart from the Holy Spirit cannot understand things of the Spirit...
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I'll just accept Jesus at His Word in John 7:17.
Jeuss isn't saying anything that supports your doctrine... Only those with the Spirit can even start to discern the will of God...
John
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/15/2008 12:29:42 PM
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FREELUTH
Posts: 164
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Here are Luther's thoughts on the subject.
I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.
_____________________________
My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness.
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/15/2008 1:15:11 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3190
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
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quote:
Here are Luther's thoughts on the subject. Thanks, FREELUTH, but I do not see in this statement any reference to man's responsibility. On another thread somewhere it was posted that Luther claimed one could sin at will without eternal consequence, once saved. Is this your understanding of his doctrine?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/15/2008 2:48:21 PM
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FREELUTH
Posts: 164
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Here are Luther's thoughts on the subject. Thanks, FREELUTH, but I do not see in this statement any reference to man's responsibility. On another thread somewhere it was posted that Luther claimed one could sin at will without eternal consequence, once saved. Is this your understanding of his doctrine?
NO !!!! That is untrue or out of context. He did believe that the mercy of God in Christ was greater than any sin, and that if you had faith in Christ your sins are forgiven no matter how bold the may be. I think we need to make a distiction between could and would. I COULD murder and God would forgive me, but I am pretty sure I never WOULD.
Luther did believe man was responsible to God, but that he was unable to do anything about it. See above post.
_____________________________
My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness.
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/15/2008 3:03:00 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2862
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FREELUTH
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Here are Luther's thoughts on the subject. Thanks, FREELUTH, but I do not see in this statement any reference to man's responsibility. On another thread somewhere it was posted that Luther claimed one could sin at will without eternal consequence, once saved. Is this your understanding of his doctrine?
NO !!!! That is untrue or out of context. He did believe that the mercy of God in Christ was greater than any sin, and that if you had faith in Christ your sins are forgiven no matter how bold the may be. I think we need to make a distiction between could and would. I COULD murder and God would forgive me, but I am pretty sure I never WOULD.
Luther did believe man was responsible to God, but that he was unable to do anything about it. See above post.
Excellent post...
John
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/15/2008 3:50:57 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3190
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
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quote:
Luther did believe man was responsible to God, but that he was unable to do anything about it. See above post. FREELUTH, I'm sorry, but's that just a non-sequitur! If someone is unable to do anything about it, then how can they be held responsible? Please clarify, FREELUTH.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/15/2008 9:04:23 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2278
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Luther did believe man was responsible to God, but that he was unable to do anything about it. See above post. FREELUTH, I'm sorry, but's that just a non-sequitur! If someone is unable to do anything about it, then how can they be held responsible? Please clarify, FREELUTH.
Is God evil because He allows man to sin? Is God responsible because man wants to sin? Does the unsaved person want to sin or does he not want to sin?
John 3
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
God holds man accountable to Him; unregenerate men enjoy sin (they love darkness more than light).
Men are either carnal or spiritual, are they not? Can a natural/carnal man, sold under sin, make himself spiritual apart from the Holy Spirit?
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/16/2008 9:21:57 AM
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FREELUTH
Posts: 164
Joined: 1/31/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Luther did believe man was responsible to God, but that he was unable to do anything about it. See above post. FREELUTH, I'm sorry, but's that just a non-sequitur! If someone is unable to do anything about it, then how can they be held responsible? Please clarify, FREELUTH.
Wow a non-sequitur ????? Please define for us dumb people !!!!!!!
Man is responsible to God for the debt of sin. He can not pay the debt. God gives some the faith in Jesus's atonement for the debt. The rest still have to pay, "the wages of sin is death." Man is responsible for the debt (sin), and can never do enough to even make the first payment. Jesus paid it all.
_____________________________
My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness.
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/16/2008 3:21:54 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3190
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
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quote:
Wow a non-sequitur From Latin, loosely meaning -> it does not follow.
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Man is responsible to God for the debt of sin. He can not pay the debt. Okay, I think I get what you're saying. We are responsible for our sinful actions by our free will but we are unable to change the consequenses of those actions since all sin must lead to eternal death.
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God gives some the faith in Jesus's atonement for the debt. Well, here isn't the place to argue this non-sequitur, but 2 Peter 3:9b pretty well refutes this idea.
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The rest still have to pay, "the wages of sin is death." Man is responsible for the debt (sin), and can never do enough to even make the first payment. Jesus paid it all. I suppose I would prefer to say that we all have to pay. It's just that Believers trust Jesus to pick up the tab, while the unrepentant must pay their own way.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/16/2008 4:49:59 PM
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FREELUTH
Posts: 164
Joined: 1/31/2007
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Hi Doc thanks for the Latin. As to 2 Peter 3:9 Yes God wants all to be adopted and become children of God, but for some reason we do not understand not all are given grace, faith to trust in Christ alone as the atonement for an unpayable debt.
I wish you and I could sit down in my yard with one of our home grown sirlions. I bet we would agree on more than either one of us thinks.
Grace and Peace.
_____________________________
My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness.
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RE: Making Yourself a Child of God - 5/16/2008 5:21:38 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3190
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
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quote:
Yes God wants all to be adopted and become children of God, but for some reason we do not understand not all are given grace, faith to trust in Christ alone as the atonement for an unpayable debt. All are "given grace"; some choose not to appropriate it by faith. But, my friend, you may have the last word on this issue.
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I wish you and I could sit down in my yard with one of our home grown sirlions. I bet we would agree on more than either one of us thinks. Sorry, I would not take that bet! I know we have much more agreement than most would think reading our dialogue.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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