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[Poll]
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Is it acceptable for Christians
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| Sure! As long as you tithe and give offerings |
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| Yes |
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| No way! |
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| Sometimes but only if you are thankful |
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| Not sure |
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Total Votes : 38
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(last vote on : 6/18/2008 1:40:13 PM)
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RE: Is it acceptable for Christians - 5/12/2008 12:06:04 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2938
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
How in faith can you take advantage of people? Nothing to do with feelings...
John
I don't believe you can. Even when you use a middle man.
Amen...
John
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RE: Is it acceptable for Christians - 5/13/2008 4:17:15 AM
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bford64
Posts: 64
Joined: 4/17/2008
From: Air Capital of the World
Status: offline
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The examples given all have one thing in common, the love of money.
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RE: Is it acceptable for Christians - 5/13/2008 7:39:37 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1918
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
You can make the point that in each scenerio the people being "taken advantage of" had been acting irresponsibly with their gifts and forfieted their "rights" to them.
Nehemiah 5
1 Now the men and their wives raised a great outcry against their Jewish brothers. 2 Some were saying, "We and our sons and daughters are numerous; in order for us to eat and stay alive, we must get grain." 3 Others were saying, "We are mortgaging our fields, our vineyards and our homes to get grain during the famine." 4 Still others were saying, "We have had to borrow money to pay the king's tax on our fields and vineyards. 5 Although we are of the same flesh and blood as our countrymen and though our sons are as good as theirs, yet we have to subject our sons and daughters to slavery. Some of our daughters have already been enslaved, but we are powerless, because our fields and our vineyards belong to others."
6 When I heard their outcry and these charges, I was very angry. 7 I pondered them in my mind and then accused the nobles and officials. I told them, "You are exacting usury from your own countrymen!" So I called together a large meeting to deal with them 8 and said: "As far as possible, we have bought back our Jewish brothers who were sold to the Gentiles. Now you are selling your brothers, only for them to be sold back to us!" They kept quiet, because they could find nothing to say. 9 So I continued, "What you are doing is not right. Shouldn't you walk in the fear of our God to avoid the reproach of our Gentile enemies? 10 I and my brothers and my men are also lending the people money and grain. But let the exacting of usury stop! 11 Give back to them immediately their fields, vineyards, olive groves and houses, and also the usury you are charging them--the hundredth part of the money, grain, new wine and oil."
quote:
I don't see any christian taking advantage of other's poor choices.
I see it all the time. And not just when people make poor choices but when they are in situations of that are not of their own making -- people who profess to be Christians take advantage of them.
quote:
the parable of talents suggests that those who act responsibly with the gifts given them will not only prosper from those responsible actions but the gifts given to those who do not act responsibly toward those gifts, will be given to those who do.
This is not about people making "responsible" actions. This is about people who "don't care" about others and make up excuses "why" it's ok to take advantage of those people in their bad situation.
This is about people loving money(and self) and choosing money over doing what is right in God's eyes.
23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness.
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/13/2008 7:57:58 AM >
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RE: Is it acceptable for Christians - 5/13/2008 12:52:13 PM
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Focusing
Posts: 5251
Joined: 5/19/2007
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If you are intentionally deceiving someone, it's wrong. Period. It's your action, not their ignorance.
_____________________________
Sam
The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. Psalm 18:2
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RE: Is it acceptable for Christians - 5/13/2008 8:01:36 PM
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mcp
Posts: 109
Joined: 4/23/2005
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Exo 22:25 If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury.
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RE: Is it acceptable for Christians - 5/16/2008 8:37:53 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1918
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
If you are intentionally deceiving someone, it's wrong.
Nothing on my part was intentional other than to make money and to choose to not care about who it might harm.
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/16/2008 8:47:49 AM >
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RE: Is it acceptable for Christians - 5/18/2008 9:51:17 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3683
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
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How does making money harm someone?
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Is it acceptable for Christians - 5/18/2008 12:18:38 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 2831
Joined: 6/8/2005
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To me, walking away from a situation knowing I have done the right thing has far more value than does any money I may make from a situation.
Sure, I will be the first to admit that when I do the right thing, it feeds my pride, but when I do the wrong thing, it directly and strongly diminishes my relationship with my G-d. I would rather deal with a bit of pride and joy from doing what is right than deal with the latter.
As far as the scenerios of the employer cashing the paychecks, that is theft. Loaning money at 25% is, indeed, theft, but I unserstand that banks and payday-loander places do that all the time. If it is theft for banks and payday-loaners, it is theft for me as well. As far as the crackhead neighbor, if wouldn't give him/her one sent. To give them money is feeding their addiction.
Should the situation like the elderly lady selling something to get her medicine come up, rather than buying the items, I would suggest that giving her the money and taking the items, telling her that when she has the money to buy them back for the same amount, they will be there for her for three months. At the end of that time, if she buys them back, it is over. If she doesn't, I would sell the items and split the money evenly.
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 5/18/2008 12:25:17 PM >
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Is it acceptable for Christians - 5/19/2008 8:28:12 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1918
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
To me, walking away from a situation knowing I have done the right thing has far more value than does any money I may make from a situation.
I agree. Either we love God and hold to his way of living or we love the world and do what they do.
quote:
As far as the scenerios of the employer cashing the paychecks, that is theft. Loaning money at 25% is, indeed, theft, but I unserstand that banks and payday-loander places do that all the time. If
Many years ago - back when the banks would send back to your the "actual check" you wrote - I noticed that several of my employees were going to one of those "check cashing" places inorder to cash their checks. I asked them "why" and their reply was to just scrug their shoulders. These are our "bottom" of the pole guys. The ones with little education, had bad homelives, lack social skills and the like. What we would call the "least" in society but they were able to hold down jobs, marry and have families. (often large ones)
I decided to call the check cashing store to see how much they were charging my men to "cash their checks". I went nuts. They were charging 24.00 for every $100.00!!!!!!!! And the check cashing place KNEW my checks were good!!!!!
I tried to explain to my men that they worked several hours per week "just" to cash their check. I could tell my talking was over their heads. From that day on I began to "cash" for my men their checks at no charge. I could charged them 3% but I knew that I would be taking advantage of their ignorance and that is not what I want to do. I want to help them. I want to help their families.
It's a matter of doing unto the least of these as we would do unto Jesus.
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RE: Is it acceptable for Christians - 5/19/2008 8:29:59 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1918
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
How does making money harm someone?
There are thousands of ways I can make money TODAY that will hurt someone. But no one would be as harmed as I would be. I would be harmed the most because it would be a sin and block my ability to hear God clearly and have an intimate relationship with Him.
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RE: Is it acceptable for Christians - 5/19/2008 12:59:05 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 2831
Joined: 6/8/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
From that day on I began to "cash" for my men their checks at no charge. I could charged them 3% but I knew that I would be taking advantage of their ignorance and that is not what I want to do. I want to help them. I want to help their families.
It's a matter of doing unto the least of these as we would do unto Jesus.
Since I am sure He has already blessed you for your thoughtfulness and your care, I just ask Him to bless you again, doubly, triplely, for doing this. You, my dear, are doing G-d's work. I love you for that.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Is it acceptable for Christians - 5/21/2008 11:32:07 AM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 5678
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
How does making money harm someone?
Too many ways to count. P31W gave some excellent examples of how to hurt people and make money at it.
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RE: Is it acceptable for Christians - 5/22/2008 3:53:53 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1170
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
Status: offline
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Here's a good case of this:
"Pearlman bilked thousands of people out of millions of dollars in an investment scam that went on for decades, authorities said. His victims included "his family, his close friends and people in their 70s and 80s who have lost their life savings," according to Sharp."
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20201601,00.html
As Christians we should not be decieving, swindling, tricking money from the poor, ignorant, etc.
It says GIVE to the poor.
_____________________________
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: Is it acceptable for Christians - 5/22/2008 8:43:28 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1918
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
It says GIVE to the poor.
For me "giving to the poor" involved MUCH more than giving them a handout. In involved giving them some of the knowledge and understanding about life, money, God, opportunity, self discipline, delayed self gratification, etc that we have been so richly blessed with.
Covaan_Meshuga
Thank you. You made me smile and feel warm and fuzzy inside. Something someone mean like me does not often feel. 
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/22/2008 8:51:07 AM >
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RE: Is it acceptable for Christians - 5/25/2008 7:20:05 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3683
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
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quote:
There are thousands of ways I can make money TODAY that will hurt someone
No doubt. However my point is, just making money harms no one. In other words its not a sin to make money. HOW you make it can be.
There are just as many ways to make money that helps people. Like any endeavor, the sin is in the motivation and actuation.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Is it acceptable for Christians - 5/26/2008 9:02:06 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1918
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
the sin is in the motivation and actuation.
money is the motivation - it's not that I "want" to harm others its that I simply don't care if they are harmed or not - my motive is to make money inorder to do many things. Some very good things.
I cannot reply to this term actuation because I don't understand what it means in relation to this topic.
Notice this OT law
De 22:8
When you build a new house, make a parapet around your roof so that you may not bring the guilt of bloodshed on your house if someone falls from the roof.
What do you believe is the "spiritural principle" behind this law?
The letter of the law tells me if I build a "new home"....what if I build something else where the roof is flat and people congregate? Am I to obey the letter of the law only or seek out the spiritural meaning of the law and obey it?
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/26/2008 9:43:31 AM >
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RE: Is it acceptable for Christians - 5/28/2008 12:54:46 AM
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upNORTder
Posts: 212
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
An old elderly widow woman has a gun collection that I know is worth tens of thousands of dollars. She is desperate to buy her heart medication TODAY.
So I give her a $100.00 for the guns.
_______
You used the fact that she was desparate for medication to stay alive to obtain her collection for pennies on the dollar?
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We are working out of town. I pay my employees but they are miles away from the bank and don't have a car. So I offer to cash their paycheck so they can go next door and get something to eat. I give them 75 dollars for each 100. cashed.
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So, realizing that your employees did not have the means of transportation to cash the check that you gave them or enough money to afford to eat, you charged them a probably way illegal amount to cash their checks? Taking advantage of their hunger.
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My neighbor only has a 6th grade education. I loan him money at 25% interest rate and have him put up as collateral his automobile that is worth three times the amount of the loan.
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Again there's that legal thingy, usary and such.
quote:
Someone's child needs a kidney transplant and they are desperate to get up $100K for the operation. I offer to buy their business for pennies on the dollar.
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There's that taking advantage of someones misery again. I supose you couldn't have waited a little while longer... you might have gotten a better deal if the child iwas right on the brink of death.
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My neighbor is a crackhead and needs a quick fix. I offer to give them $50.00 if they give to me ther wife's wedding and engagement rings.
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You may have a great future in the pawn broker biz.
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A stranger just found out he lost his job and his rent of $500.00 is past due. I tell him that if he gives me his paycheck ($400.00)..... then I will put up $4,0000. Then we will roll the dice. If the dice lands on snake eyes he can have ALL the money. If it rolls onto anything else I get all the money.
If he's stupid enough to take a bet given such poor odds, then maybe he deserves to place it. If he loses you may just find out how desparate he really is.
None of these situations shows any love for ones neighbor.
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