All things "Gothard"... (Full Version)

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peculiar_lady2 -> All things "Gothard"... (5/11/2008 9:15:33 AM)

this is not specifically a debate thread, but I understand that with this topic there might be some heated things...so let's just keep it respectful. (I also know they do a lot of homeschooling books, etc...so let's just keep the hsing discussion of right vs wrong to HS out of it)

Do you know who the Gothard's are?

What are your feelings on the Gothard's teachings?




timf -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/11/2008 10:25:09 AM)

What are your feelings on the Gothard's teachings?

I can understand the revulsion one feels towards the filth in the world and the desire to protect one's family. I can also understand the desire to follow the Lord in a real way in everyday life. However, these often sincere desires can lead people to follow a fleshly path of human strength that quickly can become legalistic and quench the Spirit. This is what is described in the book of Galatians.

One of the things that killed the church was trying to turn Christianity into a "system", the procedures of which, if followed, guarantee a "successful" life. Christians are better able to grow to the full measure of Christ (Eph 4) when they are helped to overcome problems by being led by the Spirit, living by faith, and walking in truth than they are by being told what rules to follow.



29redballoons -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/11/2008 12:54:04 PM)

Psst, okay, I will be the first to admit, I do not know who the Gothard's are.


*don't throw stuff at me*



PrincessDonna -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/11/2008 1:00:37 PM)

I've never heard of them outside of this forum either.



Consecrated2God -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/11/2008 1:22:16 PM)

I don't care for Gothard at all. He's a single guy who thinks he's a parenting expert, and that right there is probably the single most discrediting thing about him. He comes up with some really odd doctrines, such as Cabbage Patch Kids being demon possessed.

Our homeschool group growing up had a lot of them. We called them "Gothardites" and they made up half of the homeschool group. Most of the time we were able to work well with them. We have friends who were into Gothard, but we also had some real troublemakers in the group. Some of them would object to something the rest of us were doing, such as having teen parties, and try to do away them. I do remember some of them walking out of the room at a homeschool talent show when my sister and I did a ballet dance. They were offended because they thought a ballet outfit was immodest.

In their defense, I do believe they genuinely love the Lord. I don't think they are dangerous or a cult, as I've heard some people here say, but they do have some strange beliefs. I wouldn't personally join them, but I think they are fairly benign.



stateofgrace -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/11/2008 8:45:44 PM)

First, it's not "the Gothards," it's Bill Gothard

[sm=biggrin.gif]

I try to avoid calling followers of Bill Gothard "Gothardites" - maybe some people are offended by my views, but I want to state my positions based on fact, without what might be considered name calling.



BlessedMamaofmany -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/11/2008 8:53:23 PM)

is there a website or something? I don't have a clue who he is or what he teaches
Sandy



zoebob -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/11/2008 8:56:13 PM)

HERe



DaveW -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/12/2008 7:27:43 AM)

Yeah, I heard about him first almost 35 years ago. He is a seriously messed up person. He believes that all the world's problems come from children being disobedient to parents. There is no time as a single person you are out from under absolute obedience to parents, even if you are 70 and your parents are in their 90s and suffer from dementia and tell you to do crazy things. He believes that rock, pop, soul, black gospel, jazz and all other modern types of music are demonic.

Stay away from him. FAAAARRRRR away.



BlessedMamaofmany -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/12/2008 8:04:02 AM)

Thanks for the link Zoe.
...interesting...
Sandy



Sunnymom -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/12/2008 9:17:24 AM)

Ditto Consecrated and timf- Lots of parents are looking for solutions to parenting problems, and the Gothard system provides these 'sure-fire' methods of child training, many of which are good things, which is how people are deceived.

Ever notice how rat poison is 99.995% good food and .005% poison? That is how it is with many of these belief systems- there is plenty of decent and viable teaching, but it is mixed in with some damaging stuff.

No teaching or system is guaranteed to produce saved and God-honoring children. If Adam and Eve can screw up, ladies and gentlemen, so can our kids.

Let the mouse beware.[;)]



landabee -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/12/2008 12:41:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: timf

What are your feelings on the Gothard's teachings?

I can understand the revulsion one feels towards the filth in the world and the desire to protect one's family. I can also understand the desire to follow the Lord in a real way in everyday life. However, these often sincere desires can lead people to follow a fleshly path of human strength that quickly can become legalistic and quench the Spirit. This is what is described in the book of Galatians.

One of the things that killed the church was trying to turn Christianity into a "system", the procedures of which, if followed, guarantee a "successful" life. Christians are better able to grow to the full measure of Christ (Eph 4) when they are helped to overcome problems by being led by the Spirit, living by faith, and walking in truth than they are by being told what rules to follow.



This is probably one of the best descriptions that I have read that could be applied to the teachings of Mr. Gothard.

quote:

He is a seriously messed up person. He believes that all the world's problems come from children being disobedient to parents. There is no time as a single person you are out from under absolute obedience to parents, even if you are 70 and your parents are in their 90s and suffer from dementia and tell you to do crazy things. He believes that rock, pop, soul, black gospel, jazz and all other modern types of music are demonic.



I agree with this. And in reading on their site... there seems to be a deliberate embellishment of what submission and obedience looks like.

It also saddens me that the idea of adopting children is dissuaded.....due to generational curses that the child will bring into the family. Almost as if adopted children are distasteful and contaminated. [:(]

quote:



Ever notice how rat poison is 99.995% good food and .005% poison? That is how it is with many of these belief systems- there is plenty of decent and viable teaching, but it is mixed in with some damaging stuff.

No teaching or system is guaranteed to produce saved and God-honoring children. If Adam and Eve can screw up, ladies and gentlemen, so can our kids.



Just gotta say it: "Sunnymom is right." [;)]



Sunnymom -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/12/2008 1:34:18 PM)

quote:

It also saddens me that the idea of adopting children is dissuaded.....due to generational curses that the child will bring into the family. Almost as if adopted children are distasteful and contaminated.

Which is interesting considering the doctrinal teachings regarding the 'adoption' of the believer into the family of God.



kernsfamily -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/12/2008 3:05:00 PM)

I married my wife in 1996. My in-laws, it turned out, were followers of Gothard. Before we got married, they had us go to one of those "basic seminars". That was certainly an experience.

Of course, one of the things that is frowned-upon is questioning any of the "teaching" (which is in direct contradiction to 2 Peter 3:10)...once I started bringing up "questions" and figuring out that SO MANY scripture passages were taken out of context, I asked questions....challenged alot of the "conclusions" made in the teachings.....I was told by the in-laws, and others, that I didn't know the TRUE meaning behind the scriptures....that I simply didn't want to "obey" the scriptures...that ONE 'basic seminar' wasn't enough...that perhaps I should go to another, then onto the "Advanced Seminar".....(even though I had the "big red book", which has ALL the teachings in there in black & white)

The first "RED FLAG" i had was on the very first day, when i was told by others in attendance that having my BIBLE there "wasn't necessary".....and was actually not encouraged, as the teaching went fast, and there wouldn't be time to look up each passage as it was mentioned. Hmmm???? that didn't seem right...

Gotta hand it to Bill Gothard, though......he knows his audience....and he knows what he wants them to hear. Very few people go to his seminars who haven't already "bought" into his "teachings"....He knows these people want to hear that "rock music" is "evil", and that "homeschooling" is the only choice for "real" Christian parents, for instance. And, he'll twist scripture, and take it out of context to make the bible fit his teachings (and that's comforting to his "followers" that what THEY believe is "biblically sound"......AND, when Bill teaches it, it's "Biblical", comes from the bible..and how dare you question it!

Very often, when Bill Gothard's teachings come in to a church, the church becomes divided....and splits, as those who follow Gothard's teachings separate themselves from those who are not followers.

My inlaws attend a very "Gothardized" church in Northern Arkansas. It's a sad place, really. No joy. A fairly small congregation (which is understandable, considering it's rural location).... They even follow Gothard's "Order of Worship" in their sunday services. If you are NOT a "gothard follower", it's not long before you're "identified", and aren't very "welcome" there....

My wife, who grew up with Gothard's teachings, isn't a "follower" of his anymore......but, the in-laws, I think still believe it all, but just don't bring it up (as that would make them have to defend his teachings AGAINST me....and, I have already poked many holes in his "teachings"..they have more than once gotten to the point of saying "I DON'T KNOW" when it came to many of his teachings, when asked how in the world the scripture passage given wasn't even close to the "teaching" that it was supposed to support).....

As far as our current church.....I brought up the subject of "Gothard" to one of our ministers a few years ago....Gothard's teachings are NOT allowed in our church at all...whether allowing a seminar to be held there, teaching it in a bible study class or anything. Totally banned. And, we're in a fairly conservative southern baptist church.

Our area is saturated with hundreds, if not thousands of churches (metro area of 6+ Million)....and, yet, when Gothard's seminars come to town, they are always held at a small, local convention center....which, i think, shows the lack of support for his teachings.

I could go on and on....but, those are the highlights.



DenimDiva -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/12/2008 4:41:18 PM)

I haven't really thought one way or the other about this man.



PrincessDonna -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/12/2008 5:01:53 PM)

Wow. Then from what I am reading here...the group of people following this man scare me.

I grew up in spiritually dead (or at least in a coma!) churches and went to one very legalistic Christian school. I have seen what that kind of atmosphere does to mere humans capable of sinning. It does not bring God's message of life, hope, repentance, and restoration.

And how they feel about adoption, if that is the case...that disturbs me greatly.[&o]



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/12/2008 8:03:46 PM)

Hi Kerns...I was waiting on you to show up in here with your wonderful posts about the ins and outs of things in this movement!!!!

quote:

And how they feel about adoption, if that is the case...that disturbs me greatly.

yeah that is very sad Donna...very very sad



JnJs_mom -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/12/2008 9:29:15 PM)

Wow I had no idea that man was like that. Doesn't that family with all those children follow him? Perhaps that is why they have their own church services in their home with one or two other families.



OneOfHisJewels -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/12/2008 10:04:27 PM)

quote:

The first "RED FLAG" i had was on the very first day, when i was told by others in attendance that having my BIBLE there "wasn't necessary".....and was actually not encouraged, as the teaching went fast, and there wouldn't be time to look up each passage as it was mentioned. Hmmm???? that didn't seem right...

[sm=shakinghead.gif] Head shaking at them, not at you, Kerns family. That's bad! God says to search the scriptures.



OneOfHisJewels -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/12/2008 10:32:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leslie35

Wow I had no idea that man was like that. Doesn't that family with all those children follow him? Perhaps that is why they have their own church services in their home with one or two other families.


"That family with all those children," does follow them, but since we don't know them, we can't know to what extent. This thread was started in order to keep the Gothard and Duggar discussions separate. I have run into different Gothard followers over the years, and the levels into which each one buy into his teachings greatly varies. Some follow it to the max, but many pick and choose.



JnJs_mom -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/12/2008 11:48:08 PM)

Oh silly me I was wondering if I was the only one who noticed that the family did that style of parenting.



OneOfHisJewels -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/13/2008 12:12:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leslie35

Oh silly me I was wondering if I was the only one who noticed that the family did that style of parenting.

[:D][:D]



ddsisson -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/13/2008 10:08:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 29redballoons

Psst, okay, I will be the first to admit, I do not know who the Gothard's are.


*don't throw stuff at me*



That's OK, I don't really know who they are either, I asked about them in the #18 thread(about the Duggars), I just didn't get a chance to visit this thread yet.

Busy Mother's Day and busy day yesterday.

I tried to kind of look around the website, all I saw were different article and such, I wasn't finding much as far as different things you all were talking about. As in about adoption and such or the order of worship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

I haven't really thought one way or the other about this man.


Me either, but that is because I don't know anything. But am just curious about the teachings. Because as I said thin the thread about the Duggars, I believe that my Nephew and his wife are "followers".



kernsfamily -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/13/2008 10:31:00 AM)

quote:

I wasn't finding much as far as different things you all were talking about. As in about adoption and such or the order of worship.


You won't find anything about these things on the website....in order to find out all he teaches, you MUST go to a "seminar", or talk to someone who knows the teachings and perhaps they might have "the red book" that has it all in there....

and, even then, you won't get EVERYTHING, until you invest much time and energy to "get involved" with that organization......the more you get "involved", the more "teachings" you are exposed to.

This is done in order to maintain a more "mainstream" appearance to those "outside" of the organization (as it DOES appear quite "harmless" and "Christian" at first)......and, to keep criticism about the teachings to a minimum, since details are not frequently shared between those on the "inside" with those who are not.



stateofgrace -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/13/2008 10:39:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels

I have run into different Gothard followers over the years, and the levels into which each one buy into his teachings greatly varies. Some follow it to the max, but many pick and choose.


One thing regarding Gothard and "picking and choosing." When a family signs up for ATI (the homeschooling program), they agree to certain rules.

While some of the more specific and controversial aspects of Gothard's teachings are more difficult to dig up, the information brochure and application for ATI are easily found on ATI's web site, and anyone can find out if the information I have related here is accurate.

Both parents must attend the Basic and Advanced Seminars as a prerequisite for enrollment in ATI. The Advanced Seminar can be taken during the first year of enrolling in ATI.

All children living at home must be enrolled in the program.

You are not allowed to have unrelated people living in your house (this is described as a "firm rule").

You are expected to limit your family's TV viewing to 5 hours a week, and it is "strongly recommended" that you remove all televisions from your home.

While it is not explicitly stated that all modern music must be removed from the home, it is claimed that rock music (including Christian rock) "causes the listener to either react or
come under the domination of the music," and further guidance on identifying and removing rock music from the home is offered through an additional booklet.

Parents will have to write up an explanation of any adopted children in the family, any past criminal offenses, any travel or outside-of-work time commitments of the father, any divorces in the past, any home based business that the wife is involved in, etc. Also, your pastor's name and phone number are required as a reference.



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