RE: The Arts in the Church

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Hephzibah610 -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/23/2008 8:17:07 AM)
That's why I wrote this....looking for practical ideas on how to implement. I don't consider myself administrative so trying to organize anything regarding gathering people together seems a bit out of reach. I was looking for ideas on how that could be done...and in the easiest way possible---so as to not scare people off from wanting to meet.

techne -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/23/2008 10:31:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hephzibah610 ...what i am looking toward is that people will be trained (mentored/discipled) to grow their talents and then use them for the glory of God. As I have read in the OT...God annointed those skilled craftsmen/artisans for His glory. That is the vision that is on my heart. this is what you said a few posts ago -- it's great that this is your vision, but are telling me that you don't have any ideas as to how you will implement this vision? some questions to consider as you work towards that might be: 1. what creative media are represented in your church, and how many artists (in any media) are there? (this will affect what types of things you can do for the church and the community) 2. what level of skill do they possess? (this will determine the type of training that may be required) 3. if the leadership does embrace the arts, how do they envision the arts being part of the life of your particular body? will this be separate or integrated into services/ programs? (this will also determine what you do, how you do it and how often) 4. what is your church like, and what is your community like? let's start there.[:D]

colliefan -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/23/2008 12:22:52 PM)
One thing my church has done is to feature the work of the individuals in the church my hanging the paintings/photos/mobiles around the church building.

techne -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/24/2008 11:19:12 AM)
that's nice...but my question is always: is that integrating it into the life of the church? at one of the churches i attended, i worked with the pastoral staff to develop ideas that would coincide with the planned sermon topics (of course, it worked better when we had longer preparation times). we looked at every aspect of the service and how it might be shaped or re-framed to reflect/ emphasize/ enrich the theme: welcome, worship, offering, sermon, closing, communion, baptism, dismissal. this approach wasn't just for "special events/ service", it was for every sunday. we would brainstorm and then i would go back to the creative team and brainstorm with them what we might do. i didn't set direction so much as try to tease creative ideas out of them. sometimes specific individuals would undertake projects, sometimes it was collaborative, and sometimes myself (i was basically the #2 worship leader) and the worship pastor would oversee it. at times we presented art, dance, video, poetry,drama, video and items that were distributed to and among the congregation. we had people get out of their seats and move around the sanctuary. we changed up the order of the service. we made things more interactive and less spectator-oriented. we tried to make more opprtiunities for declaration, call and response, prayer and blessing. we tried to make our actions and rituals overtly meaningful by helping people to realize what they were doing and why. i always hesitate to give specific details or activities because what you do should really come out of your own context...strategizing is the key, not importing others' ideas.

techne -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/24/2008 11:21:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hephzibah610 That's why I wrote this....looking for practical ideas on how to implement. I don't consider myself administrative so trying to organize anything regarding gathering people together seems a bit out of reach. well...this where you get to learn a new set of skills (or find someone who is an admininstrator - yay! quote: ORIGINAL: Hephzibah610 I was looking for ideas on how that could be done...and in the easiest way possible---so as to not scare people off from wanting to meet. why not just simply start with finding out what kind of interest there is, and what those who are interested would like to do?

Hephzibah610 -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/24/2008 1:35:43 PM)
I guess I have enough info here to start with... I have been trying to find out what interest there is in our church amongst people that I have seen are 'shy' about their giftedness and need a forum to express it. Some are excited about it, others who are not so shy, rather 'pooh-pooh' the idea. I have thought of just having a very informal meeting...even at a park for any/all who would be interested in participating in using arts for God's kingdom...what ever that might look like. There are a few people (mostly those who have already had a 'voice' in the church) who have been meeting already...I just found out recently. They are musicians mostly. We have had a tiny amount of people who paint/draw over the years, some with crafts like making banners and some who dance. quote: well...this where you get to learn a new set of skills (or find someone who is an admininstrator - yay! Sorry, been there, done that...I'm not yet at a place to put the effort that is needed as one who is NOT gifted in this (administration). The season of my life at this point is still in the raising of children and all that involves. Perhaps there is not the interest I had thought there might be...I don't know. Perhaps it is just myself who personally would like to grow and mature and become more skilled to be used by God to reach others in the arts. Perhaps I am not quite confident enough to really take this on alone.[&o] So, thanks for your thoughts and ideas...I think this may be my last post regarding this subject...

colliefan -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/24/2008 1:51:46 PM)
A key part in this is having leadership "buy into" the idea. It helps, or should I say drives, that our pastor is an artist/actor/musician and has a passion for the arts.

J_Michael80 -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/25/2008 5:23:25 PM)
There is nothing wrong with having arts such as (paintings, pictures, photos) in the church. With that said, all the arts must be appropriate and not hinder anyone. The arts should be approved by church officials such as (deacons, elders, or pastors).

PROPHETSONG -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/26/2008 9:20:29 AM)
I can relate to your post. I come from an artsy family of artist musicians, poets, writers, and visual artist. For the most part the bulk of the Church looks down on the arts, with the minority supporting the arts, that is being strongly used by God. The arts is an avenue of communication. God desires much to communicate through this means via his gifted children. Before the Lord saved me, I was a visual artist backed by the National Foundation of the Arts. Before Christ I did some demonic art, which was the fruit of the Devil's work in my life. After I was saved a new spirit started to work in me, the Holy Spirit. From within through the power of Christ's Cross,a and resurrection, I was made into a new creation. My art took a totally different direction. The Lord began to speak through my work. Men were drawing near to God though what he was saying through the art. Unfortunately the art system that trained me were offended at what was going on and they with drew their support. That was over twenty years ago. From that time until now. God has periodically opened doors though which he spoke through some art of mine, visually art, music, poetry, in spite of the fact that I have had little Church support in this matter. Here is part of a devotional that was sent to me from a brother on line that really struck me to the heart. 1 Corinthians 2:9 - Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him. CREATIVE ART IS PRODUCED BY THE SOUL (MIND, WILL, AND EMOTIONS) AND CAN ALSO BE CALLED IMAGINATIVE ART. CREATIVE ART CAN CHANGE A PERSON FOR THE SHORT-TERM, BUT IT HAS NO LONG-TERM EFFECT ON ITS VIEWERS. SPIRITUAL ART FLOWS FROM OUR SPIRIT'S COMMUNION WITH THE HOLY SPIRT. THE SPIRIT THEN USES THE SOUL AND BODY TO PRODUCE INCREDIBLE WORK. TOO OFTEN WE HAVE SETTELED FOR CREATING FROM OUR SOUL OR BODY WHEN A HIGHER CALL HAS BEEN TRYING TO REACH US. MAY WE LEARN TO CREATE FROM OUR SPIRIT, SEEING SPIRITUAL FRUIT THAT COMES FROM OUR ENDEAVORS. The proceeding statement came from Albert Finch a Realtor from Texas. The Father desires through the eternal Spirit to create through his artsy children, for the purpose of bringing new life to a dying world around us.

colliefan -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/26/2008 11:58:51 AM)
J.S. Bach closed evey piece of music he composed with the words soli deo gloria. Look at the Masters such a Rembrant. Van Gogh was a Christian who stuggled with mental illness.

techne -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/26/2008 12:18:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colliefan J.S. Bach closed evey piece of music he composed with the words soli deo gloria. and? does that make the work "christian"? would the work be any less christian if he hadn't? quote: ORIGINAL: colliefan Look at the Masters such a Rembrant. what are you suggesting we look for? and didn't rembrandt also make paintings of his mistress? [8\|] quote: ORIGINAL: colliefan Van Gogh was a Christian who stuggled with mental illness. amongst other things...he certainly started out as a missionary. i think it's debatable (though i truly hope it is so). i mean, he too had a mistress, frequented brothels and had a serious absinthe issue.

techne -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/27/2008 9:43:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: faithfulservant_ There is nothing wrong with having arts such as (paintings, pictures, photos) in the church. With that said, all the arts must be appropriate and not hinder anyone. The arts should be approved by church officials such as (deacons, elders, or pastors). so the visual arts are acceptable as decoration for the building? do you think there are other ways the arts may contribute to the church?

colliefan -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/28/2008 7:24:49 PM)
quote: In essentials, unity. In nonessentials, liberty. In all things, charity. - Augustine The first demand any work of any art makes upon us is surrender. Look. Listen. Receive. Get yourself out of the way. � C.S. Lewis are you living by your sig?

techne -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/29/2008 6:08:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colliefan quote: In essentials, unity. In nonessentials, liberty. In all things, charity. - Augustine The first demand any work of any art makes upon us is surrender. Look. Listen. Receive. Get yourself out of the way. � C.S. Lewis are you living by your sig? huh? [&:] i'm just asking questions...trying to clarify things (for myself, anyway). and yes, i am trying to live by my sig (though evidently, sometimes - perhaps even often - i fail to do that).

richhultin -> RE: The Arts in the Church (6/1/2008 10:00:12 PM)
I've been reading a lot of the posts for "the arts in the church". My background is a "secular" college degree in art education. I became a Christian after graduating from college. I don't find any conflict in bringing the practice of making art in a Christian context. The language of creating works of art serves equally well in conveying a Christian content or a non-Christian viewpoint. As you have noted techne the elements that are "objective" in an artwork are not dependent on the artists beliefs. I read much of the Lusanne Ocassional Paper on Arts in the Church and found the discussion fruitful. Thanks for the reference.

techne -> RE: The Arts in the Church (6/2/2008 9:07:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: richhultin I've been reading a lot of the posts for "the arts in the church". My background is a "secular" college degree in art education. I became a Christian after graduating from college. would you be willing to develop a list of resources for art education (or at least make some suggestions) and pm me? i used to work as an education curator at a public art gallery before becoming a museum curator, and am always looking for more resources on the topic... quote: ORIGINAL: richhultin I don't find any conflict in bringing the practice of making art in a Christian context. The language of creating works of art serves equally well inconveying a Christian content or a non-Christian viewpoint. philosophically and theologically, i agree. however - practically - many churches don't really embrace the arts as part of their body life. and many christians really seem to struggle with the issue when they feel called to be an artist. perhaps process is always process, but the issue of product (and art is a product) becomes a question. what personal examples could you offer about bringing art into a christian context? quote: ORIGINAL: richhultin I read much of the Lusanne Ocassional Paper on Arts in the Church and found the discussion fruitful. Thanks for the reference. you're welcome - pope john paul 2's letter to artists is also interesting.

notmycity -> RE: The Arts in the Church (6/3/2008 4:31:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lw9 I see too many churches putting a strange new emphasis on visual arts, icons, and being 'creative' these days. It's almost like the arts and artists are being elevated in a way, and I feel like we're rolling the clock back to the days of 'sacred art' and potential idol worship. I find this trend very worrisome. I didn't realize that worship had to become this man-made creative thing with bells and whistles to be valid. In reading about the Biblical early church, they learned together, they worshiped together, they sang together. There was no mention of 'creative services' or special [accommodations] made for 'creative people'. Amen, and well-said. It is written: �For men shall be lovers of their own selves,........ lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God� That�s what all the emphasis on �artistic expression� within the so-called church is about. I�m a musician and artist myself, and for a short time I was swept up and deceived by this. Now by God�s grace and through His Word, we see it for what it was and is - idolatry born out of love for one�s self-gratification. We enjoy art and music, but it has its proper time, place and priority if we desire to follow Christ.

Bro_Shane -> RE: The Arts in the Church (6/3/2008 4:36:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colliefan J.S. Bach closed evey piece of music he composed with the words soli deo gloria. Look at the Masters such a Rembrant. Van Gogh was a Christian who stuggled with mental illness. You know why Mozart didn't have chickens, don't you? They kept scratching around the house going "bach, bach, bach." Sorry, I couldn't resist. I tried, but I couldn't. [:)]

notmycity -> RE: The Arts in the Church (6/3/2008 6:28:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colliefan J.S. Bach closed evey piece of music he composed with the words soli deo gloria. Look at the Masters such a Rembrant. Van Gogh was a Christian who stuggled with mental illness. What this has to do with the OP I am not sure....

techne -> RE: The Arts in the Church (6/3/2008 6:51:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: notmycity quote: ORIGINAL: lw9 I see too many churches putting a strange new emphasis on visual arts, icons, and being 'creative' these days. It's almost like the arts and artists are being elevated in a way, and I feel like we're rolling the clock back to the days of 'sacred art' and potential idol worship. I find this trend very worrisome. I didn't realize that worship had to become this man-made creative thing with bells and whistles to be valid. In reading about the Biblical early church, they learned together, they worshiped together, they sang together. There was no mention of 'creative services' or special [accommodations] made for 'creative people'. Amen, and well-said. It is written: �For men shall be lovers of their own selves,........ lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God� did you read post #47 (my response to this)? i'd be interested in your response to my response -- then we can move on to address the use of this scripture and the issue of context...[;)] quote: ORIGINAL: notmycity That�s what all the emphasis on �artistic expression� within the so-called church is about. so is "artistic expression" in and of itself about love of pleasure rather than loving G-d? the fact that we are created in the image of a creative G-d who evidently thought his own creative expressions and works were "very good" (meaning, he took pleasure in them - they pleased him) means nothing? are the two really incompatible? anyway, i agree that the emphasis on "self-expression" is carnal, or immature at best, but then i've always maintained that the proper and best use of the arts is service (whether the church or other people). quote: ORIGINAL: notmycity I�m a musician and artist myself, and for a short time I was swept up and deceived by this. Now by God�s grace and through His Word, we see it for what it was and is - idolatry born out of love for one�s self-gratification. i'd like to hear this story -- what exactly was the deception that swept you up? i would hazard a guess that the issue wasn't really the arts as much as your heart, but i'd like more details so i can ask useful questions about your experience (and i do want to know and try to understand what that experience was). again, as has been noted several times, idolatry is always an issue and possibility (and idolatrous art does indeed happen, though idolatry is less about things than deeds or doing) -- but that doesn't mean the arts are wrong, or carnal, or sinful in and of themselves. there is a proper place and use for the arts (to paraphrase calvin). anything done for one's "self-gratification" is wrong. quote: ORIGINAL: notmycity We enjoy art and music, but it has its proper time, place and priority if we desire to follow Christ. agreed. the prize is christ, the great task is to be formed in his image, and our desire is that others may come to know him too...

techne -> RE: The Arts in the Church (6/3/2008 7:12:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hephzibah610 I guess I have enough info here to start with...I have been trying to find out what interest there is in our church amongst people that I have seen are 'shy' about their giftedness and need a forum to express it. Some are excited about it, others who are not so shy, rather 'pooh-pooh' the idea. I have thought of just having a very informal meeting...even at a park for any/all who would be interested in participating in using arts for God's kingdom...what ever that might look like. There are a few people (mostly those who have already had a 'voice' in the church) who have been meeting already...I just found out recently. They are musicians mostly. We have had a tiny amount of people who paint/draw over the years, some with crafts like making banners and some who dance. quote: well...this where you get to learn a new set of skills (or find someone who is an admininstrator - yay! Sorry, been there, done that...I'm not yet at a place to put the effort that is needed as one who is NOT gifted in this (administration). The season of my life at this point is still in the raising of children and all that involves. i hear you -- and of course your family takes precedence. at least there are people already meeting - though it seems to be much more difficult to rally [visual] artists and writers to come together. perhaps it's because we've turned those tasks into such personal/ private activities. we don't really do those things as part of community. it seems that musicians and dancers, who tend to work more collaboratively, embrace the process more easily. my issue, i know... the best place to start is always by developing relationships (i.e. "informal meetings"). always. quote: ORIGINAL: Hephzibah610 Perhaps there is not the interest I had thought there might be...I don't know. Perhaps it is just myself who personally would like to grow and mature and become more skilled to be used by God to reach others in the arts. Perhaps I am not quite confident enough to really take this on alone.[&o] well, don't get discouraged - timing is everything. of course, even if there is one other person to connect with it's a start. and there are numerous ways you could put things in motion as far as growing and maturing. unfortunately, all of them require time. no one can do these things alone. we were not added to the body to be alone. quote: ORIGINAL: Hephzibah610 So, thanks for your thoughts and ideas...I think this may be my last post regarding this subject... okay. (but i hope you will pop by again one day) and by the way, my avatar is the andres serrano image for this edition of the new testament...

richhultin -> RE: The Arts in the Church (6/5/2008 10:24:14 PM)
Hi techne, Yes, sure, I'm willing to post some resources for art education. It may take a few days, but I'm generally faithful to my commitments. Rich

techne -> RE: The Arts in the Church (6/29/2008 5:20:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: richhultin Yes, sure, I'm willing to post some resources for art education. It may take a few days, but I'm generally faithful to my commitments. well...it's been a few days [;)] even so -- any responses to anything else [in particular please] in this thread?

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