The Arts in the Church

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Hephzibah610 -> The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 8:33:56 AM)
"In the beginning God created...." The first words of the Bible tell of God's creativity...and yet it seems we have taken much of the creativity out of many of our churches. I have watched as creative people sit in the pew, week after week....they look as though they are longing for more, or wondering where they fit in. We have artists among us....very few of them have a venue to express their God-given talent. Where do the arts fit in church? Has anyone seen a forum where the creative abilities of church members can be expressed within (and without) of the church? I have tried to get an arts group going in our church, but although many think it is a good idea...it seems to have met with some resistance. Any thoughts?[8\|]

earthless -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 8:58:53 AM)
Many churches I have been too have great art programs and foundational groups. One church I used to minister at had poets, song writers, bands, etc.. they still do and it is really amazing to see what they have produced. Be encouraged and know it is possible and has been done.

techne -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 9:43:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hephzibah610 Where do the arts fit in church? Has anyone seen a forum where the creative abilities of church members can be expressed within (and without) of the church? the arts have numerous roles to play within church "work" or activity - whether during "services" or "outreach/ missions" -- and outside the church -- whether as a calling/ career or as a way to connect to communities. the main issues (for me anyway) are serving, excellence and support, encouragement and releasing from leadership. quote: ORIGINAL: Hephzibah610 I have tried to get an arts group going in our church, but although many think it is a good idea...it seems to have met with some resistance. so what did you do? details, please, details. what were the resistances you experienced? quote: ORIGINAL: earthless Many churches I have been too have great art programs and foundational groups.. so how did they function within the life of the body? and by "foundational groups" do you mean small groups (or discipleship groups) that were geared towards artists? quote: ORIGINAL: earthless One church I used to minister at had poets, song writers, bands, etc.. they still do and it is really amazing to see what they have produced. names, please, names.[;)] and describe some of the things they did. further, since this happened at a church where you served, how did you understand the arts functioning and contributing to your tasks, and what was the general view of the rest of the ministerial team?

earthless -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 9:48:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: techne so how did they function within the life of the body? and by "foundational groups" do you mean small groups (or discipleship groups) that were geared towards artists? The pastors/elders supported them by allowing them to do specials, provide them the church building, etc for anything they needed, for counsel, etc.. quote: ORIGINAL: techne names, please, names.[;)] and describe some of the things they did. Renee Gonzalez, Salvador, Sixpence none the Richer, Caravan 2:11, The Saturn Project, Luis Santoyo, a lot of other recording artists. quote: ORIGINAL: techne further, since this happened at a church where you served, how did you understand the arts functioning and contributing to your tasks, It's a great method of worship to God and for conveying His message to many. We were an inner-city church that surely did dream big. quote: ORIGINAL: techne and what was the general view of the rest of the ministerial team? The whole church was for it and many of the recording artists were part of our worship teams, etc.. So it worked out.

kernsfamily -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 10:19:25 AM)
Perhaps you need to either find another church that is more receptive.....or, work harder at coming up with ways to use your creative talents... Our church uses "creative" people ALL THE TIME....and, not just those within the church's Communications Department (who are full-time staff) who are graphic designers who do everything from the church bulletin, the quarterly "newsletter", and any other publications/literature and websites the church needs, but, many, many others.... Those who were interested in film/television production now produce a "sitcom" that 'airs' each week in the Kids' area (where they have an "assembly" time before splitting off into their individual Sunday school classes. (it's also broadcast online, as well....i'll give you the link if you're interested) Our children's choir just finished their spring musical....so, there was TONS of "creative" involved with that....script writing, costumes, set design.... This summer, we're once again going to have a "Creative Arts Camp" for kids....TONS of creative adults needed for that! Then, of course, come the musicians....who lead worship each and every sunday.....one of the trumpet players, and a guy on flute are graduates of Julliard. Our piano guy has been nominated for Dove awards (hasn't won any.....not yet!) Our church has a website specificially for the "Creative Team" that assists with the Children's ministry: http://www.prestonwoodcreative.com/ It's a fairly new site.....so, there's not a whole lot there....but, maybe enough to give you some ideas..... OH...iam an "art director/graphic designer".....I work "in house" for a multi-national company.....

lw9 -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 11:29:34 AM)
Hello Hephzibah, and welcome! quote: The first words of the Bible tell of God's creativity...and yet it seems we have taken much of the creativity out of many of our churches. As a graphic designer and a graduate of the fine arts, I can give you my perspective on visual arts within the church, but you may not like it! [:D] I'm not saying the following applies to you because I don't know enough about what it is you are trying to do within your church, but this is just a general observation, so I hope you take it as such. I see too many churches putting a strange new emphasis on visual arts, icons, and being 'creative' these days. It's almost like the arts and artists are being elevated in a way, and I feel like we're rolling the clock back to the days of 'sacred art' and potential idol worship. I find this trend very worrisome. I didn't realize that worship had to become this man-made creative thing with bells and whistles to be valid. In reading about the Biblical early church, they learned together, they worshiped together, they sang together. There was no mention of 'creative services' or special accomodations made for 'creative people'. quote: I have watched as creative people sit in the pew, week after week....they look as though they are longing for more, or wondering where they fit in. Please don't count me in their number. God and His word are all I need. I'm a member of the Body of Christ, so I don't need to prove my identity or wonder where I fit in. A talent is not a spiritual gift, and it shouldn't be looked on as such. quote: We have artists among us....very few of them have a venue to express their God-given talent. I can express myself perfectly well in church through prayer, worship, and singing hymns. Yes, I know... some may think I'm really boring! [8D] But I really believe that if we continue to focus on this growing trend of man-made visual arts and creativity, we're going to be leading ourselves back into bondage to these things. God gave us talents, but He also gave us commands, and one of those commands regards idolatry. Deut 5:8 You shall not make for yourself an idol [graven image] in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 1Jn 5:21 Little children, guard yourselves from idols. As humans, we can so easily fall into idolatry, so we have to be very careful and discerning in what we create. God warns us about this for a reason, and places like the Vatican serve as a prime example of why we shouldn't be creating images or getting creative in that manner within the church. As for me, I appreciate that God gave me a talent, but that doesn't mean that I need to be creative and explore my talents during worship. To me, that would be a self-centered thing rather than a God-centered thing. If my church needed help with something like their website, I would be happy to help but it would neither add to or take away from who I am as a Christian. A talent isn't a gift of the Holy Spirit, but it seems like some are making them to be one and the same these days and elevating talents to that level, and that's a dangerous thing. I'm not saying you are confusing the two, Hephzibah, but it's just a trend I see lately.

gengwall -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 11:35:59 AM)
Here is an online community that may be of interest to you: http://www.artsandfaith.com/ For graphic artists and technical artists, another community of like minds is: http://www.churchmedia.net/

JimboFletch -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 11:41:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lw9 I see too many churches putting this strange new emphasis on visual arts, icons, and being 'creative' these days. I feel like we're rolling the clock back to the days of 'sacred art' and potential idol worship. I find this trend very worrisome. I didn't realize that worship had to become this man-made creative thing with bells and whistles to be valid. In reading about the Biblical early church, they learned together, they worshiped together, they sang together. There was no mention of 'creative services' or special accomodations made for 'creative people'. My main reaction to your post is, "WOW, unbelievable one could feel that way." But on that last thought I'd say that the early church was in transition and not intended as a static model never to grow or develop. And considering that a large part of Jesus' teaching encouraged people to break free of the bonds of tradition, it's hard to think He intended His Bride to be locked into another restricted mode without any options expcept of the 1st century Church in its infancy. And in the OT, everything that could be used in praise and worship was commended. I sincerely cannot fathom how using visual arts in achurch could possibly lead any believer to worship an image.

StephK -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 11:52:33 AM)
Couldn't they be used as community outreach ministries? I have a friend who is gifted artist and teacher who uses her gifts teaching those snotty junior high kids. She tried to teach me the basics but that was not a fruitful mission. [:o] The fellowship was great though. [:D]

lw9 -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 11:55:59 AM)
quote: JimboFletch: I sincerely cannot fathom how using visual arts in achurch could possibly lead any believer to worship an image. Really? You've never ever seen people kissing statues and bowing to images?? Because we are sinful human beings, we are prone to idolatry, as can be seen over and over in Biblical history. My point was that we should be very careful to guard ourselves against idolatry within the church by not creating things - such as images and statues - that could potentially become 'sacred' and worshipped. Idolatry is alive and well in many churches today. quote: And in the OT, everything that could be used in praise and worship was commended. That's not true, though. We can't take just anything we want and use it in worship and praise. As one example, God forbids us from imitating pagan worship and trying to 'Christianize' it: Deut 12:29 The Lord your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, 30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, �How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.� 31 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates.

colliefan -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 12:16:13 PM)
soli deo gloria - to God alone be the glory With these words, J.S. Bach closed every composition. Look at the Master paintings such as Rembrant. Look at the majestic cathedarals in Europe. All point to the glory of God. It wasn't until the Enlightenment that a shift to place from glorfying God to glorifying man. Provided the arts always point to God its is proper worship.

kernsfamily -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 12:25:51 PM)
actually, in Ephesians, it directs Christians to find "their calling".....and to use their "talents and abilities" so that the body of Christ may be built up.... Ephesians 4:11.... 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Some were called to be "creative artists"....others were "called" to be bricklayers or carpenters (the "habitat for humanity" types, for instance).....etc...etc....

GroupW -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 12:41:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: earthless Many churches I have been too have great art programs and foundational groups. One church I used to minister at had poets, song writers, bands, etc.. they still do and it is really amazing to see what they have produced. Be encouraged and know it is possible and has been done. A church we formerly belonged to has (had) a fine arts ministry that includes photography, audio/visual production, painting, music, film, folk crafts, sculpture and probably a bunch of other forms that I'm not thinking of at the moment. The ministry is used as internal fellowship & a means to communicate truth in both verbal and non-verbal formats. It's also used as outreach to bring in the artistic/creative population that's heavily represented in my area (aka aging hippies that live in them thar hills). The best part - we had a pretty church with a lot of great artwork that was FREE! It can be done, although it takes a certain kind of leader to catch that kind of vision & who can work with it. Not every church is going to have the people that are equipped or called to this kind of work. Earthless is right - it's possible and it's been done. It's not that common though. Best wishes on your search.

JimboFletch -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 12:46:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lw9 Really? You've never ever seen people kissing statues and bowing to images?? Nope. Never. Ever. Really. Not in any church I've ever attended in my 50 plus years. Perhaps I've lived a sheltered life... or, perhaps, you have misinterpreted what others are doing. Do you honestly consider your gift so special that people would kiss or bow to your art? That's interesting. Howsumever, I've seen a few people stare in confusion at a PowerPoint slide put together by an untrained person that didn't know about font choices, legibility, or presentation because no graphic designer and a graduate of the fine arts was willing to donate their time doing it well.

lw9 -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 12:47:46 PM)
quote: kernsfamily: actually, in Ephesians, it directs Christians to find "their calling".....and to use their "talents and abilities" so that the body of Christ may be built up.... Ephesians 4:11.... 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. This is a list of positions within the church and has nothing to do with the subject of creative talent. Specifically Eph 4:11 mentions: Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Where is painter, sculptor, woodworker, or bricklayer in that list? Being talented is a great thing, but talents are not the same thing as or equal to spiritual gifts or being called to leadership within the church. Let's not confuse them.

lw9 -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 12:56:03 PM)
quote: JimboFletch: Nope. Never. Ever. Really. Not in any church I've ever attended in my 50 plus years. Perhaps I've lived a sheltered life... or, perhaps, you have misinterpreted what others are doing. No, there is no misinterpretation. People do kiss, bow down to, idolize, and worship statues and images in the name of Christianity, and they attribute miracles and healings to these things. quote: Do you honestly consider your gift so special that people would kiss or bow to your art? That's interesting. I honestly don't understand your responses. No, I don't consider my art to be anything special at all, and I mean that seriously. It's not something I even hinted at, so I don't understand why you would make such a statement as if it's a truth. I am my own worst critic, in fact, but what I do or don't do wasn't even the issue or the point. And good art vs. bad art is even completely beside the point since people can idolize bad art just as easily as they can good art. I was speaking in general terms about art within the church and the need to guard ourselves against idolatry, as the Bible says.

GroupW -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 1:43:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lw9 quote: kernsfamily: actually, in Ephesians, it directs Christians to find "their calling".....and to use their "talents and abilities" so that the body of Christ may be built up.... Ephesians 4:11.... 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. This is a list of positions within the church and has nothing to do with the subject of creative talent. Specifically Eph 4:11 mentions: Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Where is painter, sculptor, woodworker, or bricklayer in that list? Being talented is a great thing, but talents are not the same thing as or equal to spiritual gifts or being called to leadership within the church. Let's not confuse them. I think Kern's point is that the Eph 4 list (as well as the majority of Paul's other lists) isn't necessarily intended to be exhaustive. There would seem to be room for giftedness of a variety of types and a variety of avenues for giftedness to be manifested. And are we positive that talents and gifts aren't closely related? I'm not so sure. The bible isn't quite this specific on the issue as near as I can tell. If they are different, then I'm completely confused as to which of my few talents are gifts! BT

lw9 -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 1:59:24 PM)
Hello GroupW: quote: I think Kern's point is that the Eph 4 list (as well as the majority of Paul's other lists) isn't necessarily intended to be exhaustive. There would seem to be room for giftedness of a variety of types and a variety of avenues for giftedness to be manifested. I'm not trying to be difficult, but should we start ordaining painters, sculptors, and woodworkers? I don't see that Eph 4:11 or any of the other descriptions of church leadership leaves room to start adding new positions based on talent. Eph 4:11 and other passages clearly state the positions within the church as intended and as called. Let's not add to it. Talents have their place inside and outside the church. They allow us to earn a living and help the church out, but it just seems like some talents in particular like artistic talents are being elevated to a special new place within the church, and that is what I'm concerned about. quote: And are we positive that talents and gifts aren't closely related? I'm not so sure. The bible isn't quite this specific on the issue as near as I can tell. If someone has a particular talent for spitting long distances [hey... some do!!], we probably wouldn't confuse that with a spiritual gift, but somehow with other talents the line become blurred when it really shouldn't be. The Bible clearly lists the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and that's what we need to stick with.

wintery -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 2:26:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lw9 I'm not trying to be difficult, but should we start ordaining painters, sculptors, and woodworkers? I don't see that Eph 4:11 or any of the other descriptions of church leadership leaves room to start adding new positions based on talent. Eph 4:11 and other passages clearly state the positions within the church as intended and as called. Let's not add to it. Talents have their place inside and outside the church. They allow us to earn a living and help the church out, but it just seems like some talents in particular like artistic talents are being elevated to a special new place within the church, and that is what I'm concerned about. I think you make a good point, lw9, that may be hard for some to see. It is good to want to use talents to God's glory but that does not create a spiritual gift. The big one is music but there are others. In elevating a person with an arts talent, that is, music, acting, dancing, painting or whatever to a gift, it follows that that activity is their _ministry_ and that they are a minister--and tragic it is when someone is elevated because of their talent while their spiritual maturity has not reached the level of being a minister. This reminds me of long ago at a charismatic/non-denom church the "worship leader" had decided music was his business so he went back to playing in night clubs. There were murmurs of disapproval and an elder/deacon who worked at local factory got up and spoke about his work in manufacturing aluminum, meant for beer cans---then drew his vague conclusion that "we're all in this together", whatever that means. What happened to the piano player? His Bible was stolen from his car in the parking lot of the nightclub. He was drawn back into sin for a while. But it was said over and over that music was his "gift".

JimboFletch -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 2:45:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lw9 quote: kernsfamily: actually, in Ephesians, it directs Christians to find "their calling".....and to use their "talents and abilities" so that the body of Christ may be built up.... Ephesians 4:11.... 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. This is a list of positions within the church and has nothing to do with the subject of creative talent. Specifically Eph 4:11 mentions: Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Where is painter, sculptor, woodworker, or bricklayer in that list? Being talented is a great thing, but talents are not the same thing as or equal to spiritual gifts or being called to leadership within the church. Let's not confuse them. How nicely legalist. If there's a need in the local church, we'll just let it go unmet by the membership because it's not precisely listed anywhere in the NT... sounds like a very familiar attitude.

JimboFletch -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 2:50:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lw9 I'm not trying to be difficult, but should we start ordaining painters, sculptors, and woodworkers? I don't see that Eph 4:11 or any of the other descriptions of church leadership leaves room to start adding new positions based on talent. Eph 4:11 and other passages clearly state the positions within the church as intended and as called. Let's not add to it. I want to let you in on something the Lord revealed to me a long while back: All believers are in Full-Time Christian Ministry, not just the ordained. So, if images that you make might become objects of idol worship in a church setting (which is laughable, IMO), then those objects are as sinful when made for a commercial enterprise.

wintery -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 2:53:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: lw9 I'm not trying to be difficult, but should we start ordaining painters, sculptors, and woodworkers? I don't see that Eph 4:11 or any of the other descriptions of church leadership leaves room to start adding new positions based on talent. Eph 4:11 and other passages clearly state the positions within the church as intended and as called. Let's not add to it. I want to let you in on something the Lord revealed to me a long while back: All believers are in Full-Time Christian Ministry, not just the ordained. So, if images that you make might become objects of idol worship in a church setting (which is laughable, IMO), then those objects are as sinful when made for a commercial enterprise. I agree that we are all in full-time ministry but not in offices of ministry or authority strictly because of a talent or ability. God must really be in charge of promoting spiritually, not the coolest guitar player etc. who can indeed become an "idol".

JimboFletch -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 3:03:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wintery quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: lw9 I'm not trying to be difficult, but should we start ordaining painters, sculptors, and woodworkers? I don't see that Eph 4:11 or any of the other descriptions of church leadership leaves room to start adding new positions based on talent. Eph 4:11 and other passages clearly state the positions within the church as intended and as called. Let's not add to it. I want to let you in on something the Lord revealed to me a long while back: All believers are in Full-Time Christian Ministry, not just the ordained. So, if images that you make might become objects of idol worship in a church setting (which is laughable, IMO), then those objects are as sinful when made for a commercial enterprise. I agree that we are all in full-time ministry but not in offices of ministry or authority strictly because of a talent or ability. God must really be in charge of promoting spiritually, not the coolest guitar player etc. who can indeed become an "idol". Only if he plays accoustic guitar.

gengwall -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 3:04:16 PM)
The dialog so far ignores several realities. First, storytelling is an art form and Jesus was the premier story teller of all time. Jesus was, amongst everything else, an artist. God is a creator and artist. Scripture tells of Him "painting" and "sculpting". Artistic expression can be very godly. The arts may not function well replacing church functions such as worship, teaching, and fellowship, but they certainly enhance and illuminate those functions. Anything that opens the heart and mind to God's word is edifying and beneficial, including a point driving drama, a heart wrenching song, a soul stirring dance, or a thought provoking image.

wintery -> RE: The Arts in the Church (5/13/2008 3:05:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: wintery quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: lw9 I'm not trying to be difficult, but should we start ordaining painters, sculptors, and woodworkers? I don't see that Eph 4:11 or any of the other descriptions of church leadership leaves room to start adding new positions based on talent. Eph 4:11 and other passages clearly state the positions within the church as intended and as called. Let's not add to it. I want to let you in on something the Lord revealed to me a long while back: All believers are in Full-Time Christian Ministry, not just the ordained. So, if images that you make might become objects of idol worship in a church setting (which is laughable, IMO), then those objects are as sinful when made for a commercial enterprise. I agree that we are all in full-time ministry but not in offices of ministry or authority strictly because of a talent or ability. God must really be in charge of promoting spiritually, not the coolest guitar player etc. who can indeed become an "idol". Only if he plays accoustic guitar. Hmm...I've seen a '57 Strat get a lot of attention.

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