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ORIGINAL: drmark

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Have you ever unwittingly offended someone by your remarks? That is the same as being unaware of your offence. You thought you had said the right thing, but you managed to offend someone. This becomes a sin according to James. Therefore it must be confessed and repented of, even though you were not aware of how or why you offended.

I apologize, Ezra, for not making myself any clearer. This example of "unwitting offense" fails to answer the basic question. How do we confess and repent for an action done in unwitting ignorance?

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Is it sin before we discover that someone felt offended?

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Did that someone sin by misinterpreting our intention, even though we "said the right thing"? Does it become sin only when we realize the consequence?

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Sin is sin. I think the issue is, what do you do when you do become aware of your sin? You need to confess it and also make it right with the one you sinned against.

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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Sin is sin. I think the issue is, what do you do when you do become aware of your sin? You need to confess it and also make it right with the one you sinned against.

First off, FreeGrace, I really appreciate your explanation of forgiveness and cleansing in the exegesis of 1 John 1:9. This has been the single most important truth I've learned from this thread.

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Now that the warm fuzzies are behind us, I wish I could agree with your oversimplification that sin is sin. How can anyone "make right" the perceptions or misunderstandings of someone else?

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Ezra specifically described an example of "the right thing being said" but the hearer took offense anyway. I am NOT responsible for other folk's attitudinal problems. I am responsible for sensitivity, discernment, compassion, forgiveness, patience, and other Christ-like relational graces in my daily living. If I took offense at everyone who's ever complained at me on these discussion boards, half the posters here would be sinners just from that scenario alone! This is an untenable and unbiblical conception of sin!

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The spirit of a man, which is what we are, spirits, can no longer sin because that spirit has been saved. God isn't concerned with sin in us anymore because we have been saved already.

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Now, we through the Holy Spirits guidance guides us to walk after Him and not after the flesh where sin resides.

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When God sees us He sees Jesus. It's about our sin nature being changed not the sin you may commite

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Can we say "legalistic?" Come on y'all! We all sin, and like slipping out a curse word or a fleeting bad thought, it's part of our humanity.

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x0846, are you aware that this false dichotomy borders on gnostic heresy? God is ALWAYS concerned "with sin in us", otherwise why are there dozens of exhortations to be holy, pure, righteous, perfect, etc?

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The Holy Spirit is not some kind of spiritual guide offering suggestions for avoiding our sinful flesh! The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Triune Godhead Who indwells the sanctified Believer providing victory over sin, power to witness, and grace to grow more Christ-like in His Love every day.

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Salvation does NOT cause God to lose His eyesight! He does not merely change our sinful nature, God cleanses us from all sin and unrighteousness (1 John 1:7-9) so that our whole spirit, soul, and body will be kept blameless for eternity (1 Thess 5:23). We will not commit sin, if our sinful nature is cleansed, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit!

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ORIGINAL: x0846

drmark-

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x0846, are you aware that this false dichotomy borders on gnostic heresy? God is ALWAYS concerned "with sin in us", otherwise why are there dozens of exhortations to be holy, pure, righteous, perfect, etc?

I'm not concerned with 'heresy'. I go by what scripture says and up until the point we are born of the Spirit, Gods concern is to have us born again. That's it, because until you're born again you're dead to God and are a child of Satan. The reason we're told to walk after the Spirit and not the flesh is because there is nothing good in our sinful body of death. We should listen to His Spirit and not our flesh so God through His Spirit communicates with our spirit, instructing us and revealing Gods word to us.

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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace

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ORIGINAL: x0846

drmark-

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x0846, are you aware that this false dichotomy borders on gnostic heresy? God is ALWAYS concerned "with sin in us", otherwise why are there dozens of exhortations to be holy, pure, righteous, perfect, etc?

I'm not concerned with 'heresy'. I go by what scripture says and up until the point we are born of the Spirit, Gods concern is to have us born again. That's it, because until you're born again you're dead to God and are a child of Satan. The reason we're told to walk after the Spirit and not the flesh is because there is nothing good in our sinful body of death. We should listen to His Spirit and not our flesh so God through His Spirit communicates with our spirit, instructing us and revealing Gods word to us.

You should be quite concerned with heresy. Scripture tells us to confess our sins, forsake our sins, and to be holy and pure. Your position ignores the clear command in Gal 5:16 to walk by means of the Spirit (being spirit-filled) in order that we do NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

If your irresponsible position about sin were correct, Gal 5:16 is meaningless.

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ORIGINAL: x0846

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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace

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ORIGINAL: x0846

drmark-

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x0846, are you aware that this false dichotomy borders on gnostic heresy? God is ALWAYS concerned "with sin in us", otherwise why are there dozens of exhortations to be holy, pure, righteous, perfect, etc?

I'm not concerned with 'heresy'. I go by what scripture says and up until the point we are born of the Spirit, Gods concern is to have us born again. That's it, because until you're born again you're dead to God and are a child of Satan. The reason we're told to walk after the Spirit and not the flesh is because there is nothing good in our sinful body of death. We should listen to His Spirit and not our flesh so God through His Spirit communicates with our spirit, instructing us and revealing Gods word to us.

You should be quite concerned with heresy. Scripture tells us to confess our sins, forsake our sins, and to be holy and pure. Your position ignores the clear command in Gal 5:16 to walk by means of the Spirit (being spirit-filled) in order that we do NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
If your irresponsible position about sin were correct, Gal 5:16 is meaningless.

[quote[Gee, I think I just said that. Perhaps you should study scripture a bit more before you make an accusation of me being irresponsible since you clearly don't understand the difference between a sinful nature, sin and the ramifications of sinning.

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For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another! I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. (Gal 5)

Do you even understand this?

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You couldn't be more wrong, the Spirit of God is Gods 'spiritual guide';

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ORIGINAL: Bluethread

This definition does not say the it is as if it never happened. I would agree with it in regard to inherent nature and acceptance of punishment. However, He became sin on our behalf, not sin on His own account. In the same way, we become the righteousness of Adonai in or through Him. We are still the ones that commited the sins. Though the tears will be wiped away, that fact will not change.

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ORIGINAL: DougHorton

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ORIGINAL: Bluethread

This definition does not say the it is as if it never happened. I would agree with it in regard to inherent nature and acceptance of punishment. However, He became sin on our behalf, not sin on His own account. In the same way, we become the righteousness of Adonai in or through Him. We are still the ones that commited the sins. Though the tears will be wiped away, that fact will not change.

I admit I am a bit confused by your answer. I never said we never committed the sins or that Jesus did sin, but that our sin was credited to Him and that He recieved the punishment on our behalf, and secondly that His righteousness was credited to us; so it seems we agree.

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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We are still the ones that commited the sins.

Well stated, Bluethread! This is the great fallacy of "double imputation". There is no Biblical support for the righteousness of Christ being credited (imputed) to us. Rather, it is our faith in His righteousness that is credited (imputed) to us as righteousness.

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Romans5:19
For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

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Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end (or goal) of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

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1 Corinthians 1:30
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

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1 Corinthians 6:11
Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

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2 Corinthians 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

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Philippians 3:9
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace

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ORIGINAL: x0846

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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace

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ORIGINAL: x0846

drmark-

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x0846, are you aware that this false dichotomy borders on gnostic heresy? God is ALWAYS concerned "with sin in us", otherwise why are there dozens of exhortations to be holy, pure, righteous, perfect, etc?

I'm not concerned with 'heresy'. I go by what scripture says and up until the point we are born of the Spirit, Gods concern is to have us born again. That's it, because until you're born again you're dead to God and are a child of Satan. The reason we're told to walk after the Spirit and not the flesh is because there is nothing good in our sinful body of death. We should listen to His Spirit and not our flesh so God through His Spirit communicates with our spirit, instructing us and revealing Gods word to us.

You should be quite concerned with heresy. Scripture tells us to confess our sins, forsake our sins, and to be holy and pure. Your position ignores the clear command in Gal 5:16 to walk by means of the Spirit (being spirit-filled) in order that we do NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
If your irresponsible position about sin were correct, Gal 5:16 is meaningless.

[quote[Gee, I think I just said that. Perhaps you should study scripture a bit more before you make an accusation of me being irresponsible since you clearly don't understand the difference between a sinful nature, sin and the ramifications of sinning.

I understand it quite well, thank you. I said your comment that "sin doesn't concern God anymore" in post #54 was irresponsible because many will take that as "sin isn't a problem for me" or "it doesn't matter that I sin". The effect, whether or not you realize it, is that your comment could lead many a weak believer to not be concerned with their sin, nor do anything about it. That's why your comment is irresponsible.

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For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another! I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. (Gal 5)

Do you even understand this?

With your comments about God not being concerned about our sin, I think more than you do. [:)]

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There can hardly be found a better definition of double impution than this verse straight from the Bible:

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2 Corinthians 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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There can hardly be found a better definition of double impution than this verse straight from the Bible:

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2 Corinthians 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Actually, Doug, there is no better refutation of double imputation of righteousness than this verse! You do realize that "imputation" means credited to one's account. 2 Cor 5:21 states we become righteous, NOT we appear righteous on God's accounting books only. Don't you see the difference?

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Commentaries - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament - Hebrews - Hebrews 10:18

There is no more offering for sin (ouketi prospora peri amartia). This is the logical and triumphant conclusion concerning the better sacrifice offered by Christ ( Hebrews 9:13-10:18 ). As Jeremiah had prophesied, there is actually remission (apesi, removal) of sins. Repetition of the sacrifice is needless.

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ORIGINAL: Bluethread

One prospective that seems to be missing here is that of attitudinal confession. That is confession that recognizes that we might have sinned, restores the relationship with Adonai by removing the possibility of a guilty conscience, and commits one to studying Adonai's ways. We don't need specifics for this kind of communication with Adonai.

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Please do not insult my intelligence. After well over 30 years of applying apologetics, I am well aware of the definition of "imputation".

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1. How do we acknowledge, confess, and repent of sins we do not even realize we've committed?
If you do not realize them, you can only acknowledge that you are a sinner in general, constantly sinning even when you do not realize it, and ask the Lord to reveal your own wickedness and grant you repentance and set you back on the road of sanctification.

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2. Is there a different application or mechanism of grace for forgiveness of sins done in ignorance between the OT Levitical system and the NT Atonement?
No. All sacrifices in the Levitical system merely pointed to Christ. Even under the Levitical system, the only mechanism of forgiveness was the grace poured out at the cross, even though yet in the future. Today, it is the bread and the wine, whatever you call it in your worship, that points to the very same mechanism of forgiveness, i.e. the grace poured out at the cross. Only the illustrations given by the Lord have changed, not the actual work of the cross.

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ORIGINAL: drmark
If you wish to be a constant sinner, Doug, that is your choice. I will follow God's plan in 1 John 3:4-10!

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The passage in Numbers 15 clearly states the people will be forgiven for their unintentional sins by the priest's sacrifices on their behalf. Obviously this was a different mechanism since Jesus would not die for 1200 more years! Robertson points out that Christ's Sacrifice once and for all provides both forgiveness and remission (removal) of sin. Thus God's righteousness is both imputed and imparted!

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Mark,
Any further personal attacks and I will report you for violation of TOS.

A simple reading of my post should be clear that it better describes a life of repentance than a life of sin.

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I'm curious why you think this would not be covered by Christ's sacrifice.