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Unintentional sin is a manmade term.

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Problem here is that so many folk have brainwashed themselves into the self-convincing that they do not commit sin, they cannot distinguish between obvious sin and sin that they think might have been committed.

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Am I correct in surmising that you do not think Christ's atonement covered sins occurred before the cross?

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Are you also saying that there are current sins that require a different means of forgiveness?

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ORIGINAL: drmark

I am unaware of any Scriptural support for this position. Please share some if available as I'm always eager to learn new truth.

It seems to me that imputed righteousness results from grace appropriated by faith. How can the OT saints have had faith in an event that occured in history several centuries after their earthly existence?

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Hebrews 9:8-14
The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation. But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

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Hebrews 10:1-4
For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

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Hebrews 10:5-9
Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
"SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME:
IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.
"THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME
(IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.' "
After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them" (which are offered according to the Law), then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL." He takes away the first in order to establish the second.

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Hebrews 10:11-15
Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

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Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed ;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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You couldn't be more wrong, the Spirit of God is Gods 'spiritual guide';

x0846, I'm not sure you're reading what you're posting. Here is the verse from 1 Cor 2 you use to support your faulty position:"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God."


Clearly we have received the Holy Spirit from God so that we might know spiritual things. There's nothing in this verse about guiding, directing or leading. Instead, the verse states we receive the Spirit so that we will know for ourselves by His indwelling presence. This is a subtle but significant difference from being merely guided by God.

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ORIGINAL: DougHorton
Please do not insult my intelligence. After well over 30 years of applying apologetics, I am well aware of the definition of "imputation".

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ORIGINAL: drmark
Then please do not misuse the term "imputation". There is imputation of righteousness and there is impartation of righteousness. There is no "double imputation"!

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Although the cross is prophesied in the Old Testament, it is doubtful that the believers of that time specifically knew by what means God would provide His ultimate sacrifice. However, they clearly had the promise of a coming Redeemer from the very Garden of Eden, and knew that they were to put their faith in Him and the grace of God.

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I think Doug is correct, we are made righteous but it isn't our righteousness it's Gods. When God looks at us He sees the righteousness of Christ not ours, because our righteousness is nothing.

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ORIGINAL: x0846


I think Doug is correct, we are made righteous but it isn't our righteousness it's Gods. When God looks at us He sees the righteousness of Christ not ours, because our righteousness is nothing.

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ORIGINAL: drmark

Our righteousness comes from Christ but if we are made righteous, then we must behave righteously. We are enabled to serve God in holiness and righteousness all our days (Luke 1:74-75), because Christ came to save us from our sin, not just in our sin.

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Disagree, we should TRY to behave righteously, it's not a 'must' because we are incapable as long as we live in our body.

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ORIGINAL: x0846
Disagree, we should TRY to behave righteously, it's not a 'must' because we are incapable as long as we live in our body.

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ORIGINAL: drmark
Unfortunately, x0846, you will continue to disagree as long as you hold to this heretical doctrine of gnostic dualism. I pray God will open your heart to His truth in Matt 7:21-23, Gal 5:19-25, 1 Peter 1:13-16, and 1 John 3:4-10. Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John certainly did not think it incapable to behave righteously!!

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Re-read what I wrote, I said TRY and you said MUST. We can only try since we cant 'must', as in, an act or course of action that is demanded of one, as by position, custom, law, or religion. We CAN behave righteous if we TRY but it isn't demanded that we MUST, since we can't all the time.

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You ever sinned? Yeah, you have and do. So obviously you MUST not be living righteous. Pray for yourself.

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ORIGINAL: drmark
This is heresy based on first century AD gnosticism which artificially attempts to separate the actions of one's body from the intent of one's spirit. John's first epistle addresses this false doctrine forcefully, especially in chapter 3.

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ORIGINAL: DougHorton

No, it is not Gnosticism. It is the fact that, while on this side of the grave, we still carry about our sinful nature. This is expressed in Rom. 7:14-25.

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ORIGINAL: x0846
Disagree, we should TRY to behave righteously, it's not a 'must' because we are incapable as long as we live in our body.

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It's not possible in these jars of clay.

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ORIGINAL: drmark

One cannot properly understand Romans 7 without reading further into Romans 8! We do not have to "carry about our sinful nature on this side of the grave" if we live according to the Spirit - Romans 8:12-16. By the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit, I am a Romans 8 Christian!

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We most certainly do carry our sin nature as Mannamuncher and X0846 are both telling you.

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Our corrupt nature, during this life, remains in those that are regenerated

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the sinful nature and everything tainted by it, are truly and properly sin.

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If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us...
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

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Romans 3:9-18
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written:
"There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one." (Psalm 14:1-3; Psalm 53:1-3; Ecclesiastes 7:20)
13 "Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; (Psalm 5:9)
"The poison of asps is under their lips"; (Psalm 140:3)
14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." (Psalm 10:7)
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known." (Isaiah 59:7, 8)
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." (Psalm 36:1)

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The Heidelberg Catechism

Q59: But what does it help you now, that you believe all this?
A59: That I am righteous in Christ before God, and an heir of eternal life.[1]

1. Hab. 2:4; Rom. 1:17; 5:1; 8:16; John 3:36; Titus 3:7

Q60: How are you righteous before God?
A60: Only by true faith in Jesus Christ:[1] that is, although my conscience accuses me, that I have grievously sinned against all the commandments of God, and have never kept any of them,[2] and am still prone always to all evil;[3] yet God, without any merit of mine,[4] of mere grace,[5] grants and imputes to me the perfect satisfaction,[6] righteousness and holiness of Christ,[7] as if I had never committed nor had any sins, and had myself accomplished all the obedience which Christ has fulfilled for me;[8] if only I accept such benefit with a believing heart.[9]

1. Rom. 3:21-25; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8-9; Phil. 3:9
2. Rom. 3:9-10
3. Rom. 7:23
4. Titus 3:5
5. Rom. 3:24; Eph. 2:8
6. I John 2:2
7. I John 2:1; Rom. 4:4-5; II Cor. 5:19
8. II Cor. 5:21
9. John 3:18; Rom. 3:28; 10:10

Q61: Why do you say that you are righteous by faith only?
A61: Not that I am acceptable to God on account of the worthiness of my faith, but because only the satisfaction, righteousness and holiness of Christ is my righteousness before God;[1] and I can receive the same and make it my own in no other way than by faith only.[2]

1. I Cor. 1:30; 2:2
2. I John 5:10; Isa. 53:5; Gal. 3:22; Rom. 4:16

Q62: But why cannot our good works be the whole or part of our righteousness before God?
A62: Because the righteousness which can stand before the judgment seat of God must be perfect throughout and entirely conformable to the divine law,[1] but even our best works in this life are all imperfect and defiled with sin.[2]

1. Gal. 3:10; Deut. 27:26
2. Isa. 64:6; James 2:10; Phil. 3:12

Isaiah 64:6
For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.


Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.


James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.


Q63: Do our good works merit nothing, even though it is God's will to reward them in this life and in that which is to come?
A63: The reward comes not of merit, but of grace.[1]

1. Luke 17:10; Rom. 11:6

Q64: But does not this doctrine make men careless and profane?
A64: No, for it is impossible that those who are implanted into Christ by true faith, should not bring forth fruits of thankfulness.[1]

1. Matt. 7:18; Rom. 6:1-2; John 15:5

The London Confession of Baptist Faith, Chapter VI
Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and the Punishment Thereof

IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil;[11] do proceed all actual transgressions.[12]

11. Rom. 8:7; Col. 1:21
12. James 1:14-15; Matt. 15:19

V. The corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated;[13] and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and the first motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.[14]

13. Rom. 7:18, 23; Eccl. 7:20; I John 1:8
14. Rom. 7:23-25; Gal. 5:17

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I am curious what tradition you are speaking of, Mark. It is not the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox churches, or any protestant church I know of.

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The Wesleyan/Holiness churches comprise the seventh largest Christian group in the world after Roman Catholics, Pentecostals, Orthodox, Baptists, Lutherans, and Methodists. It has been projected that there are 10,318,586 members of Holiness churches.

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As a matter of fact, my previous post was actually a paraphrase of The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter VI: Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and of the Punishment Thereof. Here is a section from The Heidelberg Catechism and The London Confession of Baptist Faith which state what I am saying, that we are still sinners:

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Sinfulness Still Resides in But No Longer Rules the Believer
Wesley's conversion reinforced his predilection for the Eastern Church's emphasis on spiritual transformation rather than the Western Church's (Roman) emphasis on transaction. While he never disputed transaction as the foundation of the Christian life (the believer's status before God is changed through the vicarious work of Christ), transformation remained the theme of his theology. This "new birth" was instantaneous. (This is not to say that it had to be felt or identified as instantaneous.) While gestation is a long period preceding physical birth, Wesley argued, and physical development requires a long period after birth, the moment of birth is not protracted. So it is with those who are born of the Spirit. Undoubtedly God has been at work for no little time within believers, preparing them for this event ("prevenient grace"); God would also certainly be at work long after the event. Yet the moment at which people pass from death to life, from being children of wrath to children of God, from those bent in on themselves to those whose life is characterized (ultimately) by self-forgetful love; the moment is just that, a moment. (Again, Wesley must not be thought to insist that all believers were aware of such a moment.)

Once the penitent was "born of God" Wesley insisted, following St. Paul (Romans 6, et al.), that while sin resides in the new creature, sin no longer rules. While sin is present in believers, it does not characterize them. Believers are characterized by the one who now rules over them, Jesus Christ. Believers, he knew from Scripture and his own heart searching, ". . . are daily sensible (aware of) of sin remaining in their heart, pride, self-will, unbelief; and of sin cleaving to all they speak and do, even their best action and holiest duties." Lest they lose confidence in the reality and efficacy of their new birth, believers must be convinced ". . that the whole work of sanctification is not, as they imagined, wrought at all once". And lest they capitulate in the struggle to "work out" that salvation which is entirely the gift of God, Wesley reassured them that Christ ". . is and dwells in the heart of every believer who is fighting against all sin".

Those who perservere in faith will find this further work of sanctification removes these remaining tendencies to sin, so that believers may enjoy a constant and wholly unhindered fellowship with His Spirit. So many these days accept sin and occasional sinning as normal for a believer. They find that the only way they have of resisting it is by force of will and prayer, while the scriptural provision He gave for it remains neglected. Jesus forgives, and sooner or later they end up giving Him more to forgive! Sadly, this uninformed "sinning religion" rules most churches. The fruit is the shocking spiritual failure of fellow believers we keep hearing about. Will you be next?

There is no reason to continue this neglect since much clear instruction is available from the many generations of faithful authors who went on to polish Wesley's original foundational teachings for our lasting spiritual benefit.