RE: Keeping salvation? (Full Version)

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SovereignIsHe -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/10/2008 12:13:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Heavendweller

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Christians can only do because God does...

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

John,

Yes, most definitely grace is necessary for us to accomplish our "spiritual worship." But as seen in this passage, the Apostle Paul was not static or inactive. It is a both/and situation. We must cooperate with grace in order to serve God. We are not puppets waiting for the puppetier to forcebly move us. Rather, we have been given actual grace as His children to become partakers of His divine nature.



Truly sad...

John



Heavendweller -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/10/2008 1:26:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
John,

Yes, most definitely grace is necessary for us to accomplish our "spiritual worship." But as seen in this passage, the Apostle Paul was not static or inactive. It is a both/and situation. We must cooperate with grace in order to serve God. We are not puppets waiting for the puppetier to forcebly move us. Rather, we have been given actual grace as His children to become partakers of His divine nature.


quote:

Truly sad...

John


Dear John,
Could you perhaps elaborate? If you want to, that is. That was one of my longer posts, so to make a two-word response seems a bit aloof and obscure. I've heard both sides, I've attended churches that believe as you do. But, when I tried the teaching on, it didn't work.

Heavendweller



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/10/2008 1:29:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Heavendweller

quote:

ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
John,

Yes, most definitely grace is necessary for us to accomplish our "spiritual worship." But as seen in this passage, the Apostle Paul was not static or inactive. It is a both/and situation. We must cooperate with grace in order to serve God. We are not puppets waiting for the puppetier to forcebly move us. Rather, we have been given actual grace as His children to become partakers of His divine nature.


quote:

Truly sad...

John


Dear John,
Could you perhaps elaborate? If you want to, that is. That was one of my longer posts, so to make a two-word response seems a bit aloof and obscure. I've heard both sides, I've attended churches that believe as you do. But, when I tried the teaching on, it didn't work.

Heavendweller


Keep up the good work...

John



Heavendweller -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/10/2008 5:22:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Keep up the good work...

John

Why thank you, John. And now we can agree to disagree, ok?

Kinda like math. I tell the kids, you learn math one way. I learned it the other. As long as we get the same answer, that's what matters. [:D]

Heavendweller



evry1needsgod -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/10/2008 10:36:24 PM)

When you open a Christmas present (gift) a parent does not expect you to do something to keep it. If so, it would not be a gift, it would be a REWARD. God is not sitting in Heaven, asking us to open a gift (salvation, which btw, has already been paid for, which means nothing is required) and then tell us "child, if you aren't good, I'm going to take this away from you." If this were true, salvation becomes an oxymoron, because a gift, by definition, is not a gift if deeds are required to keep it. No, doing good deeds are not required to keep salvation. The grace of God is an act so strong, we as Christians are compelled by the Holy Spirit to act upon it, but not required to for salvation. If so, Scriptures would contradict itself. Eph 2:8-9 explains it quite clearly, and theres no way to get around this verse...

For by GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

(emphasis mine)



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/10/2008 10:43:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Heavendweller

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Keep up the good work...

John

Why thank you, John. And now we can agree to disagree, ok?

Kinda like math. I tell the kids, you learn math one way. I learned it the other. As long as we get the same answer, that's what matters. [:D]

Heavendweller


I am more of the idea that it really doesn't matter... If Christians can support abortion who should care if they believe salvation is by works...

John



loveineffable -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/10/2008 11:08:58 PM)

Hey to me all of you make sense, from each perspective
Consider this:
A tree its branch and a fruit hanging off the branch. Call it an orange.
Okay the branch is us right? We are the branches, he is the tree (vine) and The creator is the root (Father of Jesus Christ)
Can the branch produce that fruit the orange? Would it not have to abide in the tree and the tree be attached to the root?
So since we the branches that can do nothing on our own, w/o abiding. Then the ? would be how does one abide then in order for the fruit to be produced?
Would it be from believing or working?
We just saw that the branch can not work to produce any fruit. It just abides and the tree produces the fruit in and through the branch. so the branch can only bear the fruit right? With this in mind then there is no room for proudness or boastfullness. For it is God doing the work in and through the believer. Just like the tree doing the work in and through the branch.

So works are a byproduct of belief, (abiding). Faith in Christ, real faith produces real works. Works does not produce faith. If works produced faith true faith that is, Then there never would have been a need for the sinless savior Jesus Christ taking away the sin of the world, in order for us to be born again through belief.
See I agree about faith is dead w/o works. I disagree with works producing faith. It is faith that produces works. Then one needs to look at works and think is the works I am doing God's or man's by man's traditions. or because of God's love for me individually.
Which in God's way, it boils down to mercy.
God is not a tyrant, people and the devil are. it is mercy always has been from Adam and Eve to this very day. Receive, belief, and be amazed at the work he does through you the believer, peeling you like an onion, you saying no to unrighteousness through faith in him and what he has done. we become the responder instead of the initiator. God is the initiator we are his creation, so i think we need to respond to him and what he did for us all at the cross with outstanding thank yous. Finalizing the cross where we are and have been forgiven. There is no more forgiveness w/o the shedding of blood, and the cross was the last shedding of blood. Leaving this once received and going on into the newness of life like a butterfly that used to be a catapillar. Once it broke out of the cocoon is was free, a brand new creation, never to crawl upon the ground again.
I hope you now see what God has done for you trhrough your belief in him, and what works you will do as a byproduct of the born again fact
ineffablelove



evry1needsgod -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/10/2008 11:20:04 PM)

loveineffable:

Be ready for the verses in John 15.



JimboFletch -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/11/2008 4:44:33 PM)


...Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
-Galatians 3:2b-3



evry1needsgod -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/11/2008 5:27:58 PM)

JimboFletch:

Is that chapter, specifically that verse, referring to the folly of the Galatians after the changing of dispensations after Christ's life? Not that this has anything to do with this conversation (of perhaps is does), I'm just trying to learn. Thanks.



JimboFletch -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/13/2008 8:02:28 AM)

Understanding on what the Bible reveals on the permanence (or the supposed temporary nature) of salvation involves understanding of our total reliance on God's grace both for receiving and the keeping of redemption. It is folly to think any believer has in himself enough righteousness to obtain or keep salvation. I think it is also the height of arrogance to assert that in all the universe, no being or circumstance can wrench our eternal soul from God's hand except for our unstoppable human will to destroy the new creation He made within us through the atonement of God the Son. A couple of verses remind us of our limitations in the matter of our salvation:

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit
-Titus 3:5

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
-Ephesians 2:8-9

To put it another way: Salvation is entirely by works, but it is those of Jesus and not ours. His job was to do the works of righteousness, ours is to trust in Him.

Many make the mistake of the other brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son in believing that continued grace for those in the family is performance-based. The main point of the story is that the Father's love for His redeemed sons & daughters cannot be earned by the most dedicated effort nor lost by foolish choices. Our entire position is based on Jesus, in whom is no defect, blemish, or sin and His works of righteousness is perfect and complete.

Don't ever confuse the work that a son or daughter in Christ does as a RESULT of their love and the erroneous notion that our efforts ever are sufficient to keep that we were unable to earn in the first place.

But if you are still tempted to believe your efforts, your work is crucial to remain saved, then go to the Master's words on the subject:

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
- John 6:29



rcjames -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/13/2008 10:17:01 AM)

Good post Jimbofletc,

I think a lot of the confusion comes from folks who are not saved thinking that they are

The passage in Matt 7 points to this very well;

(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I would suggest to folks to be concerned about validity of their thinking they are saved, as Paul said;

(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

(2Co 13:6) But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Paul was writing that to the folks called Saints in Corinth, so I suspect it is valid to us today.

I could get into a long winded discussion about the great falling away, overcoming so as not to have one's name removed, etc; but where I focus with folks is on whether they are truely saved or they just a wannabe like the folks in Matt 7.

You posted;

quote:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
-Ephesians 2:8-9


And a wonderful passagte that is, but do not ignore the next verse;

(Eph 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I maintain that if one is saved they will (bnot maybe, but will) walk in good works. If thy are not walking in good works; then they better go back to the drawing board, for they may of had some kind of experinece, or a major attack of Godly sorrow; but not Salvation.


Thsnks
RC



bob97 -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/18/2008 12:24:57 AM)

quote:

I think a lot of the confusion comes from folks who are not saved thinking that they are


I'm thinking of a gentleman...supposedly accepted the Lord twice and baptized both times…still feels lost and can’t make it to Church. Apparently just an outward confession and baptism doesn’t always bring one the salvation desired. Interesting!!

Bob



loveineffable -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/20/2008 2:22:33 PM)

bob97,
Which goes to show one, it is only from the belief, in their heart, and only god knows the heart.
So in retrospect, those that are truly seeking him shall find him, And the Father of Christ shall lead that one to his Son. Once truly believing, the Holy Spirit is received, and thus the journey in grace has begun
Shedding ones skin like a snake.
Again Works is only a by product of faith in Christ's finished work.
I do because he has done. I love because he has and still does love. I forgive beacause he has forgiven me at the cross and that is final, for there is no forgiveness w.o the shedding of blood. And there is no more sacrifice for sin.
Once I received this, that is when true works began in and through me. I like became a fly on the wall watching, God remove from me things I had worked so hard to remove, and just could not do it. So frustrated at times, but now it is all him, and me. All I do is believe, ask, receive, hide, and watch as he perfects in me what I can not perfect in self.
I think this is what John eludes to, and heavandweller is eluding to: do not take advantage of this wonderful grace provided, be active in it as paul was.
Any way to all here thank you for your input, you all have helped in my growth with the almighty, and my walk in him.
I think it important to start with belief in him, then going out to find out.
EX: Like an eskimo, he will put a stake in the ground at his home. Tie a rope to him, and head out to get food for his home.
A storm comes up and he is taken out, and lost. But he can always get home after being beaten up, because he has the rope to pull himself back to home

This is how it is with the faith in Christ. I can go out and get lost, (not on purpose, or taking advantage)
Fortunately I have my premise, my home it is in heaven. I believe, and since I do and want to know my creator, I will learn from my mistakes, and grow in his loyalty to me, as being my only true friend.
It is the grace of God that teaches me to say no to unrightoeousness, (not my efforts) my efforts only keep me in it (sin takes occassion by the commandment) So everytime I wish to do good I find evil present with me, taking me captive, and thus sinning. Being a child of God though, I state with the inward man I serve God whole, but with the flesh I serve death.
Therefore, I say die to the flesh through trusting god to do this operation, through the cross that has already tasken place. Reckoning thyself to be dead indeed unto sin. Being made alive again as christ was and is, forsaking the sin issue by being tottally preoccupied with the savior, and his finished work on earth, that he overcame the world. So therefore the believer has also, through Faith in him, which produces his works through you the believer. No room here for proudness or boastfullness
Try it , start trusting God to remove from you, what you have been trying to remove from yourself, and have not been able to. Really it might take time, it depends on do you trust him or not.
The woman that said all she needed to do was touch his garment and she knew she would be healed. She did as she believed and it was done when she finalised her belief with the work to touch him.

For me, to this day, he has removed drinking, drugs, smoking, carousing, all from trusting him to do it, thus leaving me with only responding to him with thankfullness, not proudneess. And none of this happened overnight. It took my contiinual trust, believing, that he will teach by his grace at the cross to forsake weakness and partake in his righeousness, thus putting on the whole armour of Christ.
ineffable love



JimboFletch -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/20/2008 2:50:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loveineffable
...For me, to this day, he has removed drinking, drugs, smoking, carousing, all from trusting him to do it, thus leaving me with only responding to him with thankfullness, not proudneess. And none of this happened overnight. It took my contiinual trust, believing, that he will teach by his grace at the cross to forsake weakness and partake in his righeousness, thus putting on the whole armour of Christ.
ineffable love

Then, in summary, would you agree with this?:

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.
-Philippians 1:6

and this?:

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
-2 Timothy 1:12



loveineffable -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/20/2008 2:55:37 PM)

Absolutely,
love ineffable

quote:

ORIGINAL: loveineffable
...For me, to this day, he has removed drinking, drugs, smoking, carousing, all from trusting him to do it, thus leaving me with only responding to him with thankfullness, not proudneess. And none of this happened overnight. It took my contiinual trust, believing, that he will teach by his grace at the cross to forsake weakness and partake in his righeousness, thus putting on the whole armour of Christ.
ineffable love

Then, in summary, would you agree with this?:

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.
-Philippians 1:6

and this?:

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
-2 Timothy 1:12



cognitivemagic -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/24/2008 3:17:06 PM)

quote:

His grace is the means in which man continues in His grace... Anything else is nothing but man beating his chest and proclaiming himself like God... Pure vanity...


"His grace" is only part of the equation. There is also the "will of man". Grace makes for the opportunity, not the actuality, of salvation. Human agency effects the actuality of individual salvation.

Unfortunately, the heresy of "monergism" nullifies this truth because it sees only a unilateral dimension in salvation; namely, that God does everything.

It would be easy to point to scriptures that imply a synergy (i.e. co-operation) in individual salvation; but if one's lenses are adjusted to see things monergistically, then no amount of text citation could convince someone that their "hermeneutical spiral" is descending into the depths of hell.



JimboFletch -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/24/2008 3:33:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cognitivemagic

quote:

His grace is the means in which man continues in His grace... Anything else is nothing but man beating his chest and proclaiming himself like God... Pure vanity...


"His grace" is only part of the equation. There is also the "will of man". Grace makes for the opportunity, not the actuality, of salvation. Human agency effects the actuality of individual salvation.

Unfortunately, the heresy of "monergism" nullifies this truth because it sees only a unilateral dimension in salvation; namely, that God does everything.

It would be easy to point to scriptures that imply a synergy (i.e. co-operation) in individual salvation; but if one's lenses are adjusted to see things monergistically, then no amount of text citation could convince someone that their "hermeneutical spiral" is descending into the depths of hell.

So where does some sin-dead men get the wherewithal to muster up enough will to appropriate grace but others cannot?

If none are righteous, and none are, and none seek after Him on their own, and they don't, then some must be born with some something the rest of spiritually-dead mankind lacks or else they obtain it somewhere else. And since only God is good, that rules out a human source...



bob97 -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/25/2008 12:09:28 AM)

quote:

If none are righteous, and none are, and none seek after Him on their own, and they don't, then some must be born with some something the rest of spiritually-dead mankind lacks or else they obtain it somewhere else. And since only God is good, that rules out a human source...


Bingo!! [:)]

Bob



HisFish -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/26/2008 10:07:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: cognitivemagic

quote:

His grace is the means in which man continues in His grace... Anything else is nothing but man beating his chest and proclaiming himself like God... Pure vanity...


"His grace" is only part of the equation. There is also the "will of man". Grace makes for the opportunity, not the actuality, of salvation. Human agency effects the actuality of individual salvation.

Unfortunately, the heresy of "monergism" nullifies this truth because it sees only a unilateral dimension in salvation; namely, that God does everything.

It would be easy to point to scriptures that imply a synergy (i.e. co-operation) in individual salvation; but if one's lenses are adjusted to see things monergistically, then no amount of text citation could convince someone that their "hermeneutical spiral" is descending into the depths of hell.

So where does some sin-dead men get the wherewithal to muster up enough will to appropriate grace but others cannot?

If none are righteous, and none are, and none seek after Him on their own, and they don't, then some must be born with some something the rest of spiritually-dead mankind lacks or else they obtain it somewhere else. And since only God is good, that rules out a human source...

Think of lazerus. In his dead state lazerus neither had the way nor the will to respond to the Lord calling him. Jesus could have stood outside that tomb for all eternity calling on him to come out to no avail, unless first He gave life to his dead bones.



FolkSingerBlues -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/27/2008 10:07:47 AM)

I am a PK (preachers kid). I was surrounded my whole life by the teachings of the Bible. I attended every VBS, Sunday school, fellowship meeting, revival meeting, youth conference, prayer meeting and Bible study there was.
I pushed lil' old ladies and mean old men to chapel on Thursday mornings. All of those things were important works. Works that didn't save me, but works that exposed me to many different kinds of people going through many different things. I was able to witness human emotions such as hope, sadness and love. The works that I was a part of had a huge impact on my salvation, yet none of those works saved me.

So what did those works do?

When one is active in the world and sees the suffering and joy that can be encountered it is no less God talking to us than the Bible when we read it. Throughout the Bible we see lives that were filled with adventure. Men who went to war under God's command. Men who encountered angels (heavenly beings) that were sent to fight with them. Men who were used to split waters, bring out water, start bonfires on waterlogged altars. In the NT we see men who encountered ship wrecks, arguments against them, healed people, were healed by the hands of God's men. The list goes on and on. It all comes down to experiencing God through works.

Works don't save us, but we do overlook that God wants to show us what he is able to do in our lives and others lives. Jeremiah wrote:

quote:

3 The Lord appeared to us in the past, saying: "I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with loving-kindness. Jeremiah 31:3


There is no doubt the time comes in which we recognize that God uses our good works for his own purposes. One of those purposes is to draw us in. So while we are not saved by "good works" they certainly seem to play a part in our salvation because God uses them to reveal Himself to us and others through them. So while they may not save us, they certainly are necessary. God wants our lives to be an adventure with one another. He wants us to experience Him through this world and how He works in it. I don't see how one can enjoy a relationship with God if he doesn't have "good works". After all they don't have to be "great works".

Tying that into "Keeping Salvation" I believe that God uses these works to reveal Himself and in turn we seek Him. Anyone who has experienced someone in trouble, sickness or pain who has someone help them out sees the joy it can bring. When we are allowing Christ to be the one in which motivates us to help people and live our lives among "the pagans" then he is working on our spirits as well.

If you were to sit around being a "couch potatoe Christian" then how could you really witness God's works in our lives and others? If you we do nothing then how can we see his loving kindness that draws us towards Him? If our spirits are stimulated we can only be led to doubt our salvation. Not that our works save us, but that those works allow us to experience God, how he uses those works and in turn other people are stimulated by them as well. If we live lives pointing back to Christ then we have indeed displayed ourselves, as Paul calls it, Living Epistles.



loveineffable -> RE: Keeping salvation? (6/27/2008 11:06:01 AM)

AMEN, FOLKSINGER BLUES, AND AMEN AGAIN. Faith w/o works is dead, but it is not works that produce faith
It is faith that produces works, thus faith, by doing, perfects works. they go hand in hand, as we are shown in John 15
ineffable love



cognitivemagic -> RE: Keeping salvation? (8/22/2008 1:40:26 AM)

quote:

So where does some sin-dead men get the wherewithal to muster up enough will to appropriate grace but others cannot?

If none are righteous, and none are, and none seek after Him on their own, and they don't, then some must be born with some something the rest of spiritually-dead mankind lacks or else they obtain it somewhere else. And since only God is good, that rules out a human source...


I don't know....where do men, dead to sin but alive to God in Christ (Rom. 6:11), still muster up enough "will" to continue sinning? Does that mean that God is impotent in His ability to keep the elect from sin? Or does sin no longer offend God's holiness?

In regards to your second point: on the contrary, God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:4). God, indeed, has mercy on all men (Rom. 11:32; 1 John 2:1,2).

And besides that, there is no favoritism with God (Eph. 6:9; Col. 3:25).



JimboFletch -> RE: Keeping salvation? (8/22/2008 7:49:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cognitivemagic
I don't know....

Exactly. That would have been a nice place to stop.
[;)]



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