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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/20/2008 7:54:39 PM
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Closie
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Seems to me, a frequent poster on CW, who starts to and responds primarily in threads regarding race but says he ministers to blacks and whites, once posted that the MLK's "I Have a Dream" speech was socialist. So if it's socialist, why use it as support for the evils of AA? And with that, I'll go back on CW hiatus. I'll come back and visit as the Holy Spirit leads - or doesn't.
< Message edited by Closie -- 5/20/2008 8:00:48 PM >
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/20/2008 7:57:46 PM
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ken1906_4
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quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
quote:
ORIGINAL: ken1906_4
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
I consider AA to be a racist policy because it takes a segment of the population and declares theat "Those People" are deficient to the other folks.
The policy says that Blacks or women or whichever group cannot compete equally with others, are not as smart (a need to add points to test), more ignorant, etc. etc.
That is racism is the purest form and the AA is the protected child of liberals and demokrats.
Thanks
RC
Look at this way and this is from an African American perspective. How long has the United States of America been in existence? How long did slavery exist? What happen to many African Americans who attempted to start their own businesses and industries between reconstruction and the civil rights movement? People of color were often turned away from corporate and/or manufacturing jobs even though they were well qualified. Many were often under-valued, under-estimated and marginalized to work jobs way under their qualifications. Ever heard the phrase, “well we would like to hire you, but you are over-qualified for this position”. I’ll admit that some got pass this and became successful, but those happy endings were rare. Some who started their own companies were often faced with jealousy and racial hatred. Since you are from Oklahoma you should be familiar with the history of black Wall Street and how an entire community was bomb and burned to the ground over racial hate and jealousy. This area was not the first and it was not the last either. So when the civil rights bill was passed into law the government had to find a way to help those who have been tormented for 300+ years a way to catch up by trying to even the play field. Sir, we are only 40 years removed from this and though some progress has been made there is still a lot to do. I have quoted this more than once, “True integration is the sharing of power, resources and responsibility” and unfortunately this is has not yet been achieved. AA, help promote this.
The only reason Affirmative Action is an issue is because of the misconception that it is going to take away jobs from white males. The whole misconception has even evolved to a black vs. white. That's rubbish. It is only a tool to promote diversity in the work place and institutes for higher learning. The gain has been marginal at best for ethnic races, but like I said in my earlier post the gains are very significant among white women. So the anger should not be toward African Americans, Latinos, or any other race. Maybe the anger should be toward white women who have benefited more. Many companies and/or institutions who don't meet standards of diversity are rarely penalized unless there is a record and well documented proof of blatant discrimination. I can say I have benefited from Affirmative Action but my credentials are very good and I’m well qualified to be a senior software engineer for just about any IT based company in this country. If I was around before Affirmative Action was initiated or when the civil rights bill was passed I more than likely would not have this nice job despite my credentials and qualifications.
As usual, great post Ken. Unfortunately, I'm probably only one of the few here who read it in it's entirety. Most people have already made up their minds about this issue.
- Julius
well...This Current Events forum, especially when things don't line with biased perceptions is very consistent. Facts are ignored, opinions from different perspectives are marginalized, and putting things in its proper historical context means absolutely nothing.
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"Choosing between Republicans and Democrats is like choosing between the Pharisees and Sadducees. Both are enemies of Christ."
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/20/2008 8:32:48 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ken1906_4
Come off that stuff. I mean seriously. Stop putting MLK in that "I Have a Dream" box. There was more to that speech than what you quoted. There was more to him than "I Have A Dream". According to a lot of his speeches after the March On Washington he probably would have been for it, but I digress.
So you think he was just pandering or what? Personally, I would have thought Dr. King was above the politics of pandering.
He said he wated folks judged by the content of their character not the color of their skin; and I believe he was speaking the truth. He was a preacher you know..
Afirmative Action does just the opposite and is racist towards people of color by demeaning thier God given abilities.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/20/2008 8:38:24 PM
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ken1906_4
Posts: 274
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From: Maryland
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: ken1906_4
Come off that stuff. I mean seriously. Stop putting MLK in that "I Have a Dream" box. There was more to that speech than what you quoted. There was more to him than "I Have A Dream". According to a lot of his speeches after the March On Washington he probably would have been for it, but I digress.
So you think he was just pandering or what? Personally, I would have thought Dr. King was above the politics of pandering.
He said he wated folks judged by the content of their character not the color of their skin; and I believe he was speaking the truth. He was a preacher you know..
Afirmative Action does just the opposite and is racist towards people of color by demeaning thier God given abilities.
Thanks
RC
Well I guess you don't fully understand Affirmative Action and why it was and still is needed. You know there are books and websites that fully defines Affirmative Action. Reading is fundamental
_____________________________
"Choosing between Republicans and Democrats is like choosing between the Pharisees and Sadducees. Both are enemies of Christ."
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/20/2008 8:43:28 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ken1906_4
Well I guess you don't fully understand Affirmative Action and why it was and still is needed. You know there are books and websites that fully defines Affirmative Action. Reading is fundamental
Well I guess that Dr. King and I will just have to disagree with you on this one.
Affirmative Action is racist and demeaning towards folks of color, period.
And as my ole grandpappy used to say, "No matter how much lipstick you put on a pig, it is still a pig".
The same is true for Affirmative Action; no matter how you liberals try to dress it up, AA is still racist and demeaning to folks of color.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/20/2008 8:52:09 PM
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ken1906_4
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: ken1906_4
Well I guess you don't fully understand Affirmative Action and why it was and still is needed. You know there are books and websites that fully defines Affirmative Action. Reading is fundamental
Well I guess that Dr. King and I will just have to disagree with you on this one.
Affirmative Action is racist and demeaning towards folks of color, period.
And as my ole grandpappy used to say, "No matter how much lipstick you put on a pig, it is still a pig".
The same is true for Affirmative Action; no matter how you liberals try to dress it up, AA is still racist and demeaning to folks of color.
Thanks
RC
There you go with your false perceptions again. I'm not hardly liberal. I'm a conservative just like you, but my views on Affirmative Action are for it because I have taken the time to fully understand why it is needed. I don't walk around with blinders on with a unyielding loyalty to political party's no matter how wrong or right they are. Also, AA has never demean or insulted me.
***edit***
Also, I think it's sort of an insult to Dr. King that you aligned yourself to his ideals and philosophy because some of the stuff I have seen you post since I have been here is against everything Dr. King stood for.
< Message edited by ken1906_4 -- 5/20/2008 9:01:16 PM >
_____________________________
"Choosing between Republicans and Democrats is like choosing between the Pharisees and Sadducees. Both are enemies of Christ."
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/20/2008 8:56:18 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1352
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Aa started in 1964.
It was sued in 1978
14 years of a few people getting thru. or benefitting from it. Not african americans as a whole.
I say take it off the books. We are only fooling ourselves.
Now it's just another excuse for people.
Black people are quite capable of doing EVERYTHING.
We built pyramids, kingdoms. Started sciences, maths, medicine.
Domesticated animals.
Here in America we invented so much, it blows the mind.
From Refrigerators to peanut butter.
I don't get offended anymore when people say Black cannot do....
There's nothing left to prove. the accomplishments of Black people is for all the world to see. You lie only to self when you deny that.
I know it's a lie.
It was a program to combat racism, but of course like almost every other program started then, it failed.
Too many haters......
_____________________________
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
My granddaughter Niara
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/20/2008 9:43:07 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3621
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From: my mom by God
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quote:
It is only a tool to promote diversity in the work place
Why is this, today, a laudable goal? Back when AA was instituted, certainly diversity was needed. I remember back then...there were few if any black doctors or professional people let alone cops and firemen. It was needed to show blacks could do these jobs.
Today, if anyone believes a black is disqualified from a job because of his skin pigment, that person is a fool...and in the minority.
If AA was truly in effect then they would be forced to hire white people at my work.
I would prefer someone who could do the work than someone with a certain skin pigment.
quote:
the accomplishments of Black people is for all the world to see.
This is the thing I hate about AA. Why can't we just say...people. Why do we have to divide ourselves by something as unimportant as race?? This is the evil AA does..it makes race important..when it is NOT.
I, also, will not be guilted into a racist act.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/20/2008 9:59:12 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1352
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From: Mpls, MN
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quote:
Today, if anyone believes a black is disqualified from a job because of his skin pigment, that person is a fool...and in the minority.
Why did you use black? Blacks are still discriminated against. Let's not fool ourselves.
Race is important in a racist country.
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 5/20/2008 10:05:29 PM >
_____________________________
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
My granddaughter Niara
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/20/2008 10:10:34 PM
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Jeff_from_Kentucky
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Blacks are still discriminated against. Let's not fool ourselves.
And with AA, whites are discriminated against as well.
As I stated in an earlier post, I don't care what a persons race or gender is. What I care about is having the best qualified person do the job. If a member of my family needs an ambulance, I don't care if the EMT/Paramedic is black, white, yellow, red, green, or purple, male, female, androgynous, or asexual as long as they can do the job.
< Message edited by Jeff_from_Kentucky -- 5/20/2008 10:16:45 PM >
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/20/2008 10:14:26 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1352
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From: Mpls, MN
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quote:
And with AA, whites are discriminated against as well.
Like I said do away with it. It's just junk. It only lasted 14 years.
Black people are qualified to do any job. I don't think that is the basis for AA. It was started to help blacks totry to even the playing field.
That ain't never gonna happen so I say scrap it.
_____________________________
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
My granddaughter Niara
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 7:37:42 AM
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P31W
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quote:
but like I said in my earlier post the gains are very significant among white women.
When my father passed away my mother became the owner of a multi-million dollar corporation. Because she was a woman she has been able to grow that business even more. Governmental contracts pay extremely well. She benefits from AA.
She is and was a white multi-millionaire.
She did not "need" the extra work that has been thrown her way but she took it.
Of course who benefits the most are her "white sons" who run the corporation and at her death will become the owners....unless of course my mother leaves it to the "women" in the family.
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 8:32:19 AM
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rhippie
Posts: 568
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
but like I said in my earlier post the gains are very significant among white women.
When my father passed away my mother became the owner of a multi-million dollar corporation. Because she was a woman she has been able to grow that business even more. Governmental contracts pay extremely well. She benefits from AA.
She is and was a white multi-millionaire.
She did not "need" the extra work that has been thrown her way but she took it.
Of course who benefits the most are her "white sons" who run the corporation and at her death will become the owners....unless of course my mother leaves it to the "women" in the family.
Yeah I agree PW. The whole "women-owned business" thing is bizarre. I've got a client that works in bridge construction and rebar re-inforced concrete. The business is owned by two guys that have been told if they turn the company over to their wives they will then be able to bid on government contracts and will get them because there are so few women owned businesses in that field. To their credit they have declined to do so even though their wives would have to do very little beyond signing the bids and contracts.
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 8:42:12 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Closie
Seems to me, a frequent poster on CW, who starts to and responds primarily in threads regarding race but says he ministers to blacks and whites, once posted that the MLK's "I Have a Dream" speech was socialist. So if it's socialist, why use it as support for the evils of AA? And with that, I'll go back on CW hiatus. I'll come back and visit as the Holy Spirit leads - or doesn't.
I really wish you would link where I ever said that the "Dream" speech was socialist. I have never said that. So please at least be truthful.
ken1906_4 quote:
Also, I think it's sort of an insult to Dr. King that you aligned yourself to his ideals and philosophy because some of the stuff I have seen you post since I have been here is against everything Dr. King stood for.
I would ask you ken1906_4 ti link where I have demeanned King, as I agree with the "Dream" sspeech in its entirety
Affirmative Actions by definition and action tells the folks it claims to help that they are inferior. And defining a race or a sex as inferior is racist. So AA is a racist policy.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 8:51:02 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Yeah I agree PW. The whole "women-owned business" thing is bizarre. I've got a client that works in bridge construction and rebar re-inforced concrete. The business is owned by two guys that have been told if they turn the company over to their wives they will then be able to bid on government contracts and will get them because there are so few women owned businesses in that field. To their credit they have declined to do so even though their wives would have to do very little beyond signing the bids and contracts.
We have had more than one lawyer and CPA suggest we do the same. We have declined as well. For us it's not right.
But then again it's not right when we lose a job because some else chose to jump on that bandwagon. We've been told that they wanted to "hire us" but they "had" to hire a minority to do a certain portion of the work so we were going to lose out even though they KNEW we could do the work faster, more soundly and with less headache to them.
So we have been discriminated against because we "refuse" to play the game.
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/21/2008 8:57:32 AM >
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 8:54:46 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2190
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quote:
Affirmative Actions by definition and action tells the folks it claims to help that they are inferior. And defining a race or a sex as inferior is racist. So AA is a racist policy.
If gays, lesbians and transgenders get their way they want AA as well. Large corps such as Walmart have already given them "favored status" meaning even if I do own my business because I don't have sex with another woman they will give the contracts to a lesbian owned business over mine. The last time I checked WM was pushing their largest suppliers such as Kodak, P&G to do the same. I believe they too have compied and now give GL&T "perferred status".
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/21/2008 9:01:24 AM >
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 9:39:12 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 4934
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Like I said do away with it. It's just junk. It only lasted 14 years.
Please explain why you think it only lasted 14 years.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 9:48:06 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1352
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
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quote:
Please explain why you think it only lasted 14 years.
in 1964 it was started, now any person knows in 1964, Blacks were not getting jobs.
Alan Bakke sued in 1978 to dismantle it. He scored a 468 on a test he needed 470 on to enter a school. When he didnt score that, he sued.
He won.
14 years.
_____________________________
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
My granddaughter Niara
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 10:11:54 AM
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strangeharmony
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I'm a strong advocate of affirmative action. The reason why affirmative action exists as a policy is because we've had affirmative action for whites for hundreds of years. At first it was a policy, but now it's no longer on paper but still very prevalent in our culture, and the hope is that affirmative action actually balances it out.
No, I do not believe that minorities are less capable human beings. However, unfortunately, they are often given less opportunities and are not as well trained. This is the reason that many of you are against affirmative action. Why should someone with less credentials obtain a position in a school or workplace over someone more qualified?
The fact is, that if minorities are equally capable, AND equally well trained and brought up in an environment that fosters a high achievement level, then affirmative action would never be used or discussed. It would mean that if 25% of a city's population is black, then theoretically about 25% of the city's qualified people would be black, without quotas or extra programs, if every opportunity was really equal. Affirmative action wouldn't be necessary, they would just accept who's qualified and it would just turn out diverse without extra effort.
I wish I could say this were true now, but it's just not, at least yet. Does it mean that there has to be special accommodations made? For the time being, yes. For example, if a young child is brought up on impoverished city streets, but aspires to be a doctor, but by high school she just doesn't have the minimum SAT scores, I believe it would be just to make some accommodations, at least in this round. Hopefully after a successful education and a career, she now has more opportunity to raise her own children to be highly qualified candidates from the start of their life, and affirmative action would not be necessary to help them obtain what they need. This is the purpose of affirmative action.
While on the topic of SAT scores, has anyone else ever looked at average SAT scores in various districts? Have you noticed that average scores are significantly lower in black cities than in white? Anyone who believes we live in a society with equal opportunities must see blacks as less capable.
My hope and prayer is that in my lifetime, we won't have to go through any particular measures to stop affirmative action, and that it will be an old policy that will just be collecting dust because there are plenty of qualified minorities, and no extra effort would need to be made to have diverse schools and workplaces.
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 10:16:21 AM
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P31W
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Funny how people think this is a black -white issue and don't see it as a male - female one.
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 10:47:34 AM
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phreddy
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I think that Affirmative action does more harm than good. It covers up for problems in other areas, especially education. If one race is consistently less qualified for some jobs or degree programs, we need to make changes in education at the lower levels to fix the problem, not make sure we hire for diversity. Anyone who says that Affirmative action is not a quota program has not worked in a medium or larger size business with hiring responsibilities. Whenever hiring decisions are made, race and gender are taken into account to make sure that the numbers add up and the company is not opening itself up to a lawsuit for discimination. In order to protect themselves, companies must give preference to females and minorities over caucasion males. We need to encourage companies to hire the best regardless of the skin color or gender. We need schools that give every child the opportunity to be their best and realize their dreams. We need to enforce anti-discimnation laws, but we need to get rid of affirmative action.
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 11:00:18 AM
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ken1906_4
Posts: 274
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From: Maryland
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Funny how people think this is a black -white issue and don't see it as a male - female one.
yep. It's well documented that white women have been the primary beneficiaries. Unfortunately, it is overwhelmingly believed to be purley a racial(black vs. white) issue. The gains for African Americans, Latino Americans, Asian Americans have been marginal at best, but as someone stated there is still a need for it.
_____________________________
"Choosing between Republicans and Democrats is like choosing between the Pharisees and Sadducees. Both are enemies of Christ."
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 2:15:36 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 4934
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: strangeharmony
No, I do not believe that minorities are less capable human beings. However, unfortunately, they are often given less opportunities and are not as well trained. This is the reason that many of you are against affirmative action. Why should someone with less credentials obtain a position in a school or workplace over someone more qualified?
I think there was a need for a hand up or hand out in the 1960', but Lordy this is a half a century later, everyone goes to the same public schools, everyone can get the same financial assistance based on need; so why do folks of color and women need to be treated as second class citizens and demeaned by the system that declares thes as unqualified for equal access.
My point is not the white males that are denied equal access (though they are denied such) but that the policy is racist towards folks of color and women of all ilks.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is Affirmative Action a Racist Policy? - 5/21/2008 2:27:29 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 4934
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: strangeharmony
While on the topic of SAT scores, has anyone else ever looked at average SAT scores in various districts? Have you noticed that average scores are significantly lower in black cities than in white? Anyone who believes we live in a society with equal opportunities must see blacks as less capable.
.
Since you brought up the difference in SAT scores; why do you think it is that a black high school graduate will score less than a white high school graduate (your claim)?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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