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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/3/2008 1:45:51 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
What I have painstakingly learned,
LOL - very key word right there.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/3/2008 1:59:43 PM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
Teaching yourself Koine greek is no easy task, but a solid understanding of it is crucial to an accurate interpretation of some of the sticky passages in the bible.
I agree. I was blessed by an excellent teacher during my senior year in college, and even learned, after a lifetime of schooling, was a "predicate nominative" was. (it's a meaningless affectation in English, but routine in Greek.) The first time I read through the koine NT, after a year's worth of study, I understood maybe 30% of it. I went from sentence to sentence like one crossing a stream on stepping stones -- recognizing one or two words, then filling in the blanks from my memory of the KJV. The 2nd time through, I understood maybe 40%. I can read it with reasonable comfort now, though, after a dozen or so white-knuckled read-throughs.
There's a lot to be said for sheer determination!
quote:
To me, a senior pastor needs good ancient language skills, a solid understanding of history, and a broad background in theology. How you get there is up to you. You can get there by studying on your own, but I think a good seminary is a very thorough and worthwhile means to that end.
I agree. Billy Sunday bragged of being an ignoramus ("I don't know as much about theology as a jackrabbit knows about ping-pong!"), and crashed and burned as one of the most spectacular failures in recent history. (At least, until Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Baaker.)
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The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/3/2008 2:06:54 PM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
wel i think GODS word is true and it says raise a child in the way He should go and he will not depart. so i stand on GODs word not any mans stats.
"The gospel is like a joke told to a circle of men. And one man smiles." (Ivan Illych)
"There were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when famine gripped the land for 3.5 years. But unto none of them was he sent ..."
A reformation is in progress, a wonderful fresh move of obedience to the Word of God. 90% of the kids inside this reformation embrace the faith of their parents. 90% of the evangelical kids outside of this movement renounce the faith of their parents. Sorry if the facts offend, but them's the facts.
It's interesting to read how deeply influenced the early church fathers were by the neoplatonism in the culture around them. Yet we too are influenced by our culture, we are conditioned to accept as normal things that would horrify earlier generations.
Yet, shouldn't leaders be able to think outside the confines of contemporary culture?
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The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/3/2008 4:43:59 PM
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dianetavegia
Posts: 1999
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From: Southern Baptist, Non Calvinist, Pro Life Ga. girl
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There's a lot of well educated preachers out here who will bore you to death with cute stories and 'life lessons' while never sharing the Gospel. Sermons that can be planned 16 weeks in advance leave no room for the Holy Spirit to lead.
A man called of God needs only the Bible and a heart open to the leading of the Holy Spirit.
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/3/2008 5:37:47 PM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
A man called of God needs only the Bible and a heart open to the leading of the Holy Spirit.
This notion underlies all the cults born in this country, which continues to amaze the world with the bewildering variety and weirdness of the cults created by men who have "an experience" and a Bible. The "leading of the Holy Spirit" in ignorant "teachers" usually sounds suspiciously like notions already floating around, or, if fresh, then demonic.
A lot of revival is going on in China today. So, too, is a lot of weirdness. A ministry I know of offers formal training for Chinese pastors, one-month intensive sessions.
Now, there's a lot of room for discussion once we agree on the need for rigorous and disciplined training for pastors. The old Puritans, for example, were quite erudite -- but their holy commonwealth was sabotaged by an undue reverence for the classical writers of pagan Greece and Rome. Unitarians were simply former Puritans who decided to regard the God of the Bible in the same way as the Latin classics regarded Roman deities -- as a representation for a "truer" truth.
Our church was started by an amazing young man in his early 20s, who realized that he needed more formal training to stay on track. He's almost finished an MDiv from "Reform school" (RTS). Rice Brookes, who once led our denomination, shared a classroom with preacher boys a decade or two younger than himself. Kept a low profile. Took copious notes. Paid attention. And spent zero time trying to impress the teacher, even though he was responsible for several hundred churches around the world.
I wonder, however, how the cause of Christ would benefit if the typical pastor was a middle-aged guy who'd already proven his pastoral skills by raising godly children. Someone who has already demonstrated the self-mastery required to achieve success in the real world. An amazing campus church at Virginia Tech, Dayspring, was started by one of the world's leading plant pathologists.
Perhaps, the pastoral education of the future will combine online content with personal mentoring.
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The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/3/2008 11:57:06 PM
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Amansrib
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As a pastor, I would want to have a MDIV.
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/4/2008 12:55:23 AM
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KPOP
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HI THERE.
MOST CHURCHES STARTS OUT WITH A PASTOR THAT ONLY KNOWS BIBLE -- THAT WAS BACK IN THE 60S AND ALSO TILL ABOUT MID 80S
THEN THOSE PASTORS WENT TO SCHOOL AND HAD DEGREE
SOME PASTORS GO TO SCHOOL ONLY TO GET A JOB
SOME PASTORS WHO ARE REALLY HAS GOD'S CALLING -- THEY JUST FOLLOW THE PATH OF THEIR HEART
OF COURSE -- THEY NEED TO KNOW A LITTLE BUSINESS SKILLS
SUCH AS HOW TO DO FUNDRAISERS
OR HOW TO BUY MATERIALS FOR SUNDAY SCHOOL
OR HOW TO EMPLOY STAFF
OR HOW TO GET NON PROFIT AND WHAT TO DO WITH THE MONEY OF THE CHURCH
SO IF A PASTOR OR A PROSPECT WOULD APPLY --
ASK THEM TO EXPLAIN JOHN 3:16 AND ALSO TEST THEM BY DOING A BIBLE STUDY ON PSALM 1
AND OF COURSE -- ASK FOR THEIR RESUME IN BIBLE KNOWLEDGE
SUCH AS HOW LONG THEY HAVE BEEN GOING TO BIBLE STUDY
IF THEY DO NOT HAVE BIBLE EDUCATION SUCH AS BS OR BA IN THEOLOGY
THEY COULD HAVE BEEN A LEADER IN AN ANOTHER CHURCH AND WOULD LIKE TO START THEIR OWN
BUT SOME OF TYPES OF PEOPLE LIKE THAT -- THEY LIKE TO START THEIR OWN CHURCH
BY DOING BIBLE STUDIES IN HOMES AND DO PARK BIBLE STUDIES
THEN THEY RENT A PLACE OR HAVE A LEASE TO A BUILDING
AND THEY GET BOARD OF DIRECTORS
AND ADVISORS
AND ALSO CHURCH LEADERS FROM VARIOUS MINISTRY THE CHURCH HAS
ALSO IF A PASTOR HAS KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS IN COUNCILLING
ESPECIALLY COUNCILLING IN MARRIAGE -- GANGS -- THOSE TEENS YOU KNOW -- AND ALSO GOOD WITH PEOPLE
ALSO YOU CAN ASK --
ABOUT TO DO A BUDGET FOR YOUR CHUCH
AND ASK HOW MUCH SALARY THEY WOULD LIKE
MOST PASTORS NOW ADAYS -- DO NOT ASK FOR SALARY
THEY HAVE OTHER JOBS ELSEWHERE
THEY DO THIS BECAUSE THEY LOVE GOD AND WOULD LIKE TO REACH OUT TO PEOPLE AND MINISTER TO THEM
I AM A VOLUNTEER EVANGILIST IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD IN SAN JACINTO AND IN HEMET
BUT I DO NOT WORK FOR ANYBODY
I JUST VOLUNTEER USING MY NAME
BUT I DID NOT CONCENTRATE ONLY ON RELIGIOUS ASPECT
I ALSO GOT INVOLVE WITH SAN JACINTO UNIFIED SCHOOL DISTRIST AND A REGULAR VOLUNTEER AS A TUTOR
BUT I HAVE A DISABILITY THAT PREVENTS ME FROM WORKING
SO BEFORE I GET HEALED -- I JUST VOLUNTEER
I AM ALSO A HOUSEWIFE
I TAKE LEADERSHIP IN MY CHURCH ON A PART TIME BASIS
SOMETIMES I AM LEAD THE WORSHIP
AND SOMETIMES I TEACH SUNDAY SCHOOL
AND I ORGANIZED 2008 VALENTINES FOR COUPLES THIS YEAR 2008
I WAS ASK TO TAKE CHARGE OF THIS YEAR'S PICNIC -- BUT IT IS ON HOLD
I HOPE THAT WE STILL COULD GO
BUT THEY SAY IT IS HOT
SO THESE ARE SOME THINGS THAT YOU MIGHT LOOK FOR IN A PASTOR
SOMETIMES EDUCATION DOES NOT WORK -- AND MORE OF EXPERIENCE DOES
I KNOW -- SOME PEOPLE EVEN WITH EDUCATION DID NOT YET FULLY MATURE AND DOES NOT KNOW HOW TO USE THE EDUCATION
BUT SOME WHO HAD EDUCATION AND ONLY NOW IS USING THEIR EDUCATION -- BUT NOT DIRECTLY -- OR COULD BE INDIRECTLY -- DO A BETTER JOB
SO MEANS -- JUST BECAUSE THEY GRADUATED 10 YEARS AGO IN FOR SAY MUSIC
AND THEY HAVE NOT USE MUSIC BUT USE OTHER OF THEIR SKILLS IN THE PASTORING OR MINISTRY
THEY MIGHT BE BETTER OFF WITH WHO JUST RECENTLY GRADUATED IN THEOLOGY AND GET THE 10 YEAR GUY
EVEN IF IT IS MUSIC THEY STUDIED
I KNOW OR HAVE HEARD OF SOME PASTORS AND THEY NOW PASTOR A BIG CHURCH
THEY HAD BAD RECORDS IN THE PAST
AND GOD FORGAVE THEM AND LET THEM BE A PASTURE OF FLOCKS
BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THIS
ARE YOUR CHILDREN SAFE
ARE YOUR WOMEN SAFE
ARE YOUR HUSBAND SAFE
ARE YOUR MONEY SAFE
ARE YOUR CHURCH BE SAFE
SO HE COULD BE A PASTOR WITH A BEARD
OR A PASTOR WITH AN EARING -- HE OF COURSE NEEDS TO REMOVE THEM WHILE PREACHING
LOTS OF CHRISTIAN MUSICIANS NOW ADAYS -- WEARS EARINGS AND THEY STILL SING THE GOSPEL
BUT THEY DO NOT HAVE PEARCH EARS OR NOSE
YOU CAN PRAY OR CALL ANOTHER CHURCH FOR AN ADVISE
YOU CAN CALL THE SALVATION ARMY WESTERN TERRITORY AND ASK FOR ADVISE
KATHY
kathleenprokopa1@yahoo.com
"..it is good to love and to be love.."
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/4/2008 11:18:57 AM
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dianetavegia
Posts: 1999
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From: Southern Baptist, Non Calvinist, Pro Life Ga. girl
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quote:
Now, there's a lot of room for discussion once we agree on the need for rigorous and disciplined training for pastors.
I would suggest a need for rigourous and disciplined training shows a lack of faith in God's leading and the power of THE Holy Spirit. To say
quote:
The "leading of the Holy Spirit" in ignorant "teachers" usually sounds suspiciously like notions already floating around, or, if fresh, then demonic. implies THE Holy Spirit makes mistakes or errors in His leading and calling of men to the ministry.
Churches are filled with people who sit under the teachings of well learned men who tickle their ears with sermons that neither convict nor call for action.
Give me an old fashioned gospel preacher any day. My toes are out there. Step on them!
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/4/2008 11:44:03 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
How much education does a pastor really need?
A Pastor should have suffient Bibllican knowledge to understand God's plan for man and to do apologetics.
A Pastor should have the communication skills to relate that knowledge to others.
A Pastor should be able to handle the duties of Pastoring (Sheperding) the Church.
These skills can be learned thourgh life experience and dedication to Biblical study; with or without the help of a "Bible College".
I maintain that most schools do not teach "Theology" (Study of God), but teach "Theoologyology" or the study of what someone else has studied.
It took me a while to unlearn what those "Crusty ole men sitting in cob webbed offices that would not know the Spirit of God if He walked in the door" taught me; so that I could minister in Spirit and truth.
As Paul put it;
(1Co 2:1) And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
(1Co 2:2) For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
(1Co 2:3) And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
(1Co 2:4) And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
(1Co 2:5) That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
And when we as Pastor/Teachers get to a point where we do not do as Pa;ul did; we have missed the boat completely.
Nothing wrong with Seminary, but when we teach with our minds and not our hearts; oops.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/4/2008 4:24:54 PM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
implies THE Holy Spirit makes mistakes or errors in His leading and calling of men to the ministry.
People make mistakes all the time, and confuse their own desires for the leading of the Holy Spirit. (present company excepted, of course!)
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/4/2008 8:34:16 PM
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dianetavegia
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KPOP, I would have to say the majority of pastors in America do NOT have another job and are paid. Our pastor (s) earn as much as the leader of a good sized business. Add in housing, retirement, etc., and you're close to $110,000.
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/5/2008 7:43:47 AM
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BibleL7
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To those who believe a pastor should know the original languages I can only ask this; Do you not believe that the Lord can speak in other languages? I know that at times it helps to know some of the original language which we can get from other scholars yet I have listened to a pastor who knows all kinds of languages yet most of the time when tearing apart the language it totally agrees with one of the other English translations I have. I think we can very much learn the truth in English. And if a pastor does not know how to lead as a servant then it really does not matter at all how much education and original language he/she has. As for those who bring up the business aspects that is why the Lord will send people with business abilities to help those who are teachers. The Pastor is to be Leader, Teacher, Servant, Example. No one person should have to do all things of the church that is why it is to be a group of believers all gifted in different areas to help each other. As I have said previously I have known many good pastors who never saw the inside of a college or seminary but they still rightly divide the word of truth and I have met many who are attending seminary who are being taught falsely just because a teacher has degrees does not make them able to teach. If I without formal teaching in bible or Greek or Hebrew can correct a Dr in theology just from studying I have done then I would be very much questioning a candidate for pastor if they had PHD if they understand that Jesus is God and if they understand that Jesus is only way truth and life. Many of your great learned in language and PHDs and Masters of Divinity believe if false doctrines. And yes many of those who believe false doctrines are teaching in Seminaries and Bible Colleges. First thoughts of hiring a Pastor should be does he have correct doctrine regardless of years of study.
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/5/2008 8:53:11 AM
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BlackCapnHarlock
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I know some preachers who are too educated and lose their audience. I know some preachers who haven't had lick of schooling and are amongst the best preachers on this planet.
I think schooling and learning are important but not more important than
1. BEING called and chosen by GOD to be a minister as many aren't.
2. Overall application in pursuit of sound Christian doctrine.
3. Living it out.
_____________________________
Ezekiel 16:6 Eze 16:6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/7/2008 9:03:49 AM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BibleL7
To those who believe a pastor should know the original languages I can only ask this; Do you not believe that the Lord can speak in other languages? I know that at times it helps to know some of the original language which we can get from other scholars yet I have listened to a pastor who knows all kinds of languages yet most of the time when tearing apart the language it totally agrees with one of the other English translations I have. I think we can very much learn the truth in English. And if a pastor does not know how to lead as a servant then it really does not matter at all how much education and original language he/she has. As for those who bring up the business aspects that is why the Lord will send people with business abilities to help those who are teachers. The Pastor is to be Leader, Teacher, Servant, Example. No one person should have to do all things of the church that is why it is to be a group of believers all gifted in different areas to help each other. As I have said previously I have known many good pastors who never saw the inside of a college or seminary but they still rightly divide the word of truth and I have met many who are attending seminary who are being taught falsely just because a teacher has degrees does not make them able to teach. If I without formal teaching in bible or Greek or Hebrew can correct a Dr in theology just from studying I have done then I would be very much questioning a candidate for pastor if they had PHD if they understand that Jesus is God and if they understand that Jesus is only way truth and life. Many of your great learned in language and PHDs and Masters of Divinity believe if false doctrines. And yes many of those who believe false doctrines are teaching in Seminaries and Bible Colleges. First thoughts of hiring a Pastor should be does he have correct doctrine regardless of years of study.
I also believe a pastor should be educated in the concept of paragraphs.
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/7/2008 6:05:17 PM
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bzirk
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It's been my experience that the Lord equips those whom He calls, but He doesn't always do it the same way.
As long as someone meets the qualifications for elder, does it matter how they got that way?
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Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/7/2008 6:10:39 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
Yet, shouldn't leaders be able to think outside the confines of contemporary culture?
That's why I think a background in biblical history and ancient language is key - the important culture to understand is the culture that was in place back when the original documents were written.
Stepping out of our current culture and into that one is one of the first and most important impacts of an effective preacher's education.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/7/2008 6:11:49 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dianetavegia
Sermons that can be planned 16 weeks in advance leave no room for the Holy Spirit to lead.
The Holy Spirit can't plan ahead a little?
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/7/2008 6:24:18 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BibleL7
To those who believe a pastor should know the original languages I can only ask this; Do you not believe that the Lord can speak in other languages? .....
The question to me is this - do I want someone teaching me who understands as much as possible of what Paul or Matthew or Peter or (fill in the blank) may have originally intended his audience to understand?
Yes, I believe English is adequate for expressing the truths of God. Yes, I also believe the translators have done a marvelous job of giving us a reliably translated bible.
But - I also speak German. There are ideas that I can more easily express in German than I can in English. For example: In English, we talk about the "spirit of the times". This is a direct translation out of the German "Zeitgeist". In German, though, there is a philosophical connotation and flavor to this word that just doesn't translate 100%. If I want to explain that concept, I need an understanding of how that word came about and how it was used in that language before I can adequately explain it in English. Having acquired that understanding, I can then explain it in English.
So translations are great, but they don't, can't, and never will convey 100% of the meaning. Additionally, there are a few places where it's possible that the translators didn't get it 100% correct. Some manuscripts might have alternative words or accents/letters that fundamentally change the direction of a translation.
Having some understanding of all this helps insulate us from error, makes us mindful that there are places where we can legitimately disagree, and brings tremendous color and life to a 2,000 year old passage.
Does that explain it better?
Edit: Forgot to mention - I agree with RC completely on the "theologyology" comment. His qualification list is about right too. I would highly encourage seminary, but if it's just learning with your head and not your heart, I'd think you're wasting your time and money.
I also tend think many seminaries go way overboard on the M.Div. I'm not sure 100+ credit hours is really necessary to be an effective pastor. It's going to take my wife 9 or so years to complete her M.Div. There are classes she's had to spend a fair amount of time on that really will never add to her value as a Christian leader. I'm not sure a person who's heading to a mission field where there are very few pastors needs a full M. Div to be ordained to go. When there's a ripe field for harvest, keeping folks in school for 5 years when 2 would suffice doesn't seem wise to me.
Also-Bzirk has a good point. Seminary isn't required to funtion well as a pastor. In this day and age with the computer tools that are available, someone who's gifted and able to really put their back into some teaching can get by quite nicely. Like anything else, one's heart and motivation can overcome a multitude of hurdles.
Just my freely offered opinions....and ya' get what ya' pay for.
BT
< Message edited by GroupW -- 7/7/2008 6:34:39 PM >
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/8/2008 8:26:14 AM
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bluestone
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There are also two year Bible colleges. Some function specifically for those called later in life, and those who can't do four years plus seminary.
There are so many options available now.
A good working knowledge of church history really opens your eyes to what is man made, and what is a cultural interpretation that has been taught as truth. Makes a huge difference.
The bias against education is growing in Christianity. So is error. Not a coincidence.
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/8/2008 8:40:45 AM
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landabee
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quote:
A good working knowledge of church history really opens your eyes to what is man made, and what is a cultural interpretation that has been taught as truth. Makes a huge difference.
The bias against education is growing in Christianity. So is error. Not a coincidence.
Amen and AMEN!
_____________________________
"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
Visit My Blog:
Eclairs!
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/8/2008 12:29:01 PM
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David_D
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A formal education is not required in my opinion, but critical thinking skills are. I've lost count of the things I've heard and read of pastors telling their congregations that are just flat out incorrect. The most recent I can recall was "men have one fewer rib than women which PROVES the creation account!" I just ... wow.
A pastor should be equipped to detect logical inconsistencies and nonsense, whether that comes from education or life experience.
I'll also add that anti-intellectualism is a monstrous trend and is doing nobody any favors in Christianity.
_____________________________
Jesus, Jesus, precious Jesus
O for grace to trust Him more!
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/8/2008 12:35:39 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: David_D
A formal education is not required in my opinion, but critical thinking skills are. ...
I'll also add that anti-intellectualism is a monstrous trend and is doing nobody any favors in Christianity.
Absolutely on both counts.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/12/2008 12:13:24 PM
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kridge
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I tend to agree with you. Take King David for an example. God chose a young shepherd boy and made him king over Israel because God saw his content of David's heart. God doesn't need educated people, he needs people with a willing heart to do His will.
kridge
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RE: How much education does a pastor really need? - 7/15/2008 8:16:01 PM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 688
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
Status: offline
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quote:
Ignorance in an educated world is an embarrassment to the church.
"The baptism in the Holy Spirit is not a labor-saving device." (Bob Mumford)
The Book of Proverbs portrays wisdom and knowledge as capital assets that don't come easy, but that do make life far richer.
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The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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And God spoke in audible voice, and through prophets in those days.