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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 9:50:53 AM
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P31W
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quote:
As for cheerful giving being giving to those "outside" the local church...what local church would the Corinthians have been giving to? They had no building, no paid pastors or deacons or Sunday school teachers
Apollos was the pastor of the church in Corinth. I am not so quick to say they had no building either. The local synagogue is where Paul often started out his ministry. How were these places of worship and learning cared for and paid for? I am sure Paul and the other believers helped pay their "fair share" after all scripture never smiles at a freeloader. We know from scripture that renting a space for believers to meet is also considered fine with God because that is what Paul and some other believers chose to do. So money did go for rent.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 9:55:25 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Then I actually studied the topic and found that is not God's will for the Christian.
The NT also teaches "owe no man anything but the debt of love". Are those debts you say you pay before you give to the Lord things you willingly chose to put yourself into? Mortage, renters agreement, etc?
I wonder if you have studied the topic of how God would have you avoid debt and how you are cheerful in obeying that NT mandate from God?
Ro 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
If people believe the precepts of scripture are not for the NT Christian rather they want "direct mandates" from God posted after the gospels in the NC....I can't help but wonder if they are only searching for what benefits them from a financial point of view and not truly seeking to follow God with cheer in all His ways.
To date I have found no person who says the NT does not teach tithing that does not also stand on a soap box and also demand that debt never be something a Christian willingly enters into.
I see a huge conflict here.
< Message edited by P31W -- 3/7/2008 10:05:03 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 10:29:40 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Cheerfulness can come from a warm fuzzy feeling due to learning your favorite football team won its game last night.
Or it can come from a grateful heart to God. Or anything in between.
The enemy doesn't have to be involved at all.
We are human and do not always have the purest of motives OR feelings.
As I've said before, I began intentional giving out of a sense of obedience to what I believed was God's will for me. I wasn't cheerful about it until AFTER I was obedient - and that didn't happen overnight.
I really don't understand the argument you are trying to make out of this. Are you saying that God doesn't love a cheerful giver?
quote:
You continue to seem to want a black & white, carefully mapped out answer for everything.
Ha, Ha. I'm not the one that needs a carefully mapped out answer for giving this sunday at church.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 10:47:03 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
I really don't understand the argument you are trying to make out of this. Are you saying that God doesn't love a cheerful giver?
Not arguing for anything. I'm just trying to say that cheerfulness is not a requirement for anything. God loves a cheerful giver. Bible says so. But it's not a requirement to wait for cheerfulness before giving.
As I've said before, God gave me the cheerful heart but only after I began giving in obedience to what He had laid on my heart as His direction for me.
Note in 2 Corinthians 9 Paul wrote to remind them of their previously promised bountiful gift that they had failed to live up to. That was the point of the passage.
He wasn't saying to wait for cheerfulness and a decision on what they purposed in their heart. They had already purposed - pledged - to Paul but had not delivered. He was trying to get their attitude adjusted so that they would live up to their promise.
All this "give cheerfully what you purpose in your heart" discussion in this thread has been out of context until now.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 10:49:49 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
Ha, Ha. I'm not the one that needs a carefully mapped out answer for giving this sunday at church.
LOL. Me either, I've had my directions since 1980. I just don't have to wait until any kind of feeling overtakes my wallet.
It's a shame that people do not really know what it means to be Spirit-led. I know i've stated this before but what an appropriate response for what you said above.
We have deceived ourselves of what it actually means to be Spirit led. We can't comprehend the magnitude of influence the Spirit had upon the early Church as individuals. We reminisce on the actions of Holy Spirit in the book of Acts similar to how we had absorbed cute little children stories about Jonah being swallowed by a "fish" - It strikes us as an amazing bedtime story, but can't bring to fruition the amazing reality of it in our immature minds. How can we be Spirit led when the imagery of God's Spirit is a little angel sitting on our shoulder arguing with a devil in a red suit on the other. We look at the Spirit as a resource that is available to assist our frail conscience. Instead we forget that it is the Spirit of God that lives, and breaths inside of us. It gives us power. It gives us faith. It gives us the unnatural ability to perform any physical act that we could ever dream of. And along the lines of this thread, the Holy Spirit gives us the instructions to perform and carryout the ability to deliver charity to all mankind.
Cheerful, Spirit-led giving is not a guesstimate that appeases our conscience, nor is it a feeling that is based on a whim. We wake up every morning asking the Spirit for guidance and direction but when it comes to the Church's pocket books our leaders bind us to non-eternal standards, and temporary patterns displayed by mortal men.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 10:56:11 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
...Cheerful, Spirit-led giving is not a guesstimate that appeases our conscience, nor is it a feeling that is based on a whim. We wake up every morning asking the Spirit for guidance and direction but when it comes to the Church's pocket books our leaders bind us to non-eternal standards, and temporary patterns displayed by mortal men.
And as I stated in my post above, "cheerful giving" has nothing to do with the passage in 2 Corinthians 9. It is a mishandling of the chapter to come up with a pattern, principle, or program for giving.
The chapter can be summed up briefly and simply as, "Live up to the obligations you have made to God."
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 11:01:41 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Bible says so. But it's not a requirement to wait for cheerfulness before giving.
I have never ever said that you should wait to be cheerful before you give. And i hope that would never slip out of my mouth. It is however still wrong to give without cheerfulness. God judges your heart as much as the amount he asks you to give (whether by tithing or through freewill-grace)
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 11:15:54 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Bible says so. But it's not a requirement to wait for cheerfulness before giving.
I have never ever said that you should wait to be cheerful before you give. And i hope that would never slip out of my mouth. It is however still wrong to give without cheerfulness. God judges your heart as much as the amount he asks you to give (whether by tithing or through freewill-grace)
I'm glad my wife of 36 years doesn't only live up to her commitments unless she's cheerful. And as a husband, father, son, and employee, I prefer to to be cheerful when I live up to my commitments, but it isn't a prerequisite for me to move.
If you'll take a few moments and read the chapter you seem stuck on, 2 Corinthians 9, you'll find that it was written to a church of people who weren't living up to their promise. That single verse when read as part of the whole does not support your premise, pattern, principle, or program for giving.
Paul was telling them to stop looking like giving was something they HAD to do now the the Apostle brought the matter up but something they GET to do.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 11:23:20 AM
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JimboFletch
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Just curious:
Jared, the Christian life is a WHOLE LOT more than Tithes and Offerings. A whole lot. Yet you seem to be camped out in this single thread among the hundreds or thousands on this board. That's your prerogative, but it makes me wonder why the only two of your last 100 posts that weren't in this thread were to discuss problems with your email subscription to this thread.
Surely, with your apparent depth, you have interest in and are competent to participate in discussions on other topics. Why does this seem to be your main focus in life?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 11:24:20 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Paul was telling them to stop looking like giving was something they HAD to do now the the Apostle brought the matter up but something they GET to do.
I am sorry that you misunderstand me, cause i agree that giving is something that we get to do. Is it something we are forced to do? No. Should we feel like we have to give? Well. . . possibly. For all that God does for me, i hope that i feel some obligation to give back. Although i know that living like i had to give, is not something that God wants.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 11:29:41 AM
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DenimDiva
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Bible says so. But it's not a requirement to wait for cheerfulness before giving.
I have never ever said that you should wait to be cheerful before you give. And i hope that would never slip out of my mouth. It is however still wrong to give without cheerfulness. God judges your heart as much as the amount he asks you to give (whether by tithing or through freewill-grace)
I'm glad my wife of 36 years doesn't only live up to her commitments unless she's cheerful. And as a husband, father, son, and employee, I prefer to to be cheerful when I live up to my commitments, but it isn't a prerequisite for me to move.
If you'll take a few moments and read the chapter you seem stuck on, 2 Corinthians 9, you'll find that it was written to a church of people who weren't living up to their promise. That single verse when read as part of the whole does not support your premise, pattern, principle, or program for giving.
Paul was telling them to stop looking like giving was something they HAD to do now the the Apostle brought the matter up but something they GET to do.
I was thinking that same thing. Jimbo, is it scary for you when we're on the same page? 
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 11:52:59 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Just curious:
Jared, the Christian life is a WHOLE LOT more than Tithes and Offerings. A whole lot. Yet you seem to be camped out in this single thread among the hundreds or thousands on this board. That's your prerogative, but it makes me wonder why the only two of your last 100 posts that weren't in this thread were to discuss problems with your email subscription to this thread.
Surely, with your apparent depth, you have interest in and are competent to participate in discussions on other topics. Why does this seem to be your main focus in life?
I think there are a number of reasons, and one of them i feel is a calling to this subject. Another reason is i feel that money is probably one of the most important issues in the church. Considering money, and finances are one of the top things mentioned in the church. There are others out there that do a very good job with training in finances, such as, crown, and ramsey. I don't know many financial issues such as stocks, savings, debt, mortgages, loans, so i've decided to focus on charity and giving in the church. So, I could just stick to studying the bible without having to pick up subscriptions to wall street journal or forbes magazine. As a side note, i think debt, stewardship, and finances in America and churches really needs to be slammed harder than charitable giving needs to be preached. We are so selfish and irresponsible with our possessions, and if we learn to tame that lion then charitable giving will increase as well.
I guess what i'm trying to say is that people like dave ramsey, larry burkett, and many others devout their life and job to one subject, but the thing is, stewardship or tithing isn't my job description. so i have to take time out of my other job every day to get into this. Those people spend 50hrs./week dealing with finances. I have about 10 hrs a week, so i stick to a more specific topic.
Outside of daily devotions, spending time with the family, doing other outreach ministries, i've decided that in this time of my life, it would be good to really, know a specific topic in the bible. I've read the bible through a couple of times, so don't think i only read leviticus, hebrews, and malachi.
My goal in the end is to help others with greater giving, bring a whole new growth to stewardship, and improve community and fellowship.
At this point in my life, this is my main focus, who knows if later on God points me elsewhere.
_____________________________
Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 12:08:29 PM
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JimboFletch
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Jared, thank you for your answer. I agree with you on several key points in that post.
On a personal note, I've gone through periods in my Christian walk where I focussed mainly on certain issues until it seems resloved for me. I wrestled with stewardship in my late 20s and only revisited it once when the question arose in my mind one day on whether I should be considering my gross or net in my giving. That actually only took little thought since, by then, God had changed my attitude to cheerful giving.
I'm not quite as dogmatic as I might seem on the subject. Bit my hackles really come up when someone implies God would allow a believer to starve, miss bills, or neglect the welfare of his family if God instructs him to give back a tenth of all that God gives him. I guess, more than anything else, it makes me feel like they are calling my God unreliable and capricious. (Although, I know He can stand up for Himself without my assistance.)
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/10/2008 7:30:45 PM
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TTABTG
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"I have serious issues with any Christian who implies that God cannot be trusted to provide for anyone who would worship Him with a tenth of their income."
It was not my intention to imply that God cannot be trusted to supply for anyone who worships Him. Your continuing the sentance with "a tenth of their income" brings the lie to it. God can be trusted to supply for anyone who worships Him, period. He has always supplied for my family, often times in miraculous ways.
I once was a member of a church that would ask all the "tithers" to stand. They would then pray for them that the heavens would be opened to them and the belssings would pour out just like it says in Malachi. Then they would ask the "non-tithers" to stand, and would pray for them that God would bring them to a place of "obedience" in tithing so that they could receive the same blessing as the "tithers".
This practice accomplished two things: It built a spirit of pride in the tithers, and it shamed the "non-tithers" who would give as they were able.
The bottom line is that there is absolutely no instruction for the New Testament church to practice so-called tithing. All New Testament giving is voluntary, Spirit-led, cheerful and totally free will.
Have you decided in your heart to give 10% of your gross income? God accepts it as a free will offering and will bless you.
Have you decided in your heart to give 50%? God accepts it as a free will offering and will bless you.
Have you decided in your heart to give 3%? God accepts it as a free will offering and will bless you.
Will you giving change over time? More than likely. Will it go up and down, sure it will.
Is God's blessing you based on how much, either dollar amount or percentage, that you give? No. God's blessings are based on the finished work of Christ and your faith in Him.
As for the "Cheerful Giving" discussion. As I said, cheerfulness is in contrast to compulsion. If you are about to put money in the plate and you feel "compelled" to give it, because you are being shamed in to it, or you have some pride issue, then it were better that you not give it.
Cheerful giving is that which is done with the whole heart, no compulsion, no shaming, no coersion by any one outside of you. It has nothing to do with "feelings". It has everything to do with faith.
Alec
_____________________________
Hab 2:4 - "Behold the proud, His soul is not upright in him; But the just shall live by his faith."
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2008 12:54:52 AM
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TTABTG
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
Then I actually studied the topic and found that is not God's will for the Christian.
The NT also teaches "owe no man anything but the debt of love". Are those debts you say you pay before you give to the Lord things you willingly chose to put yourself into? Mortage, renters agreement, etc?
I wonder if you have studied the topic of how God would have you avoid debt and how you are cheerful in obeying that NT mandate from God?
Ro 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
If people believe the precepts of scripture are not for the NT Christian rather they want "direct mandates" from God posted after the gospels in the NC....I can't help but wonder if they are only searching for what benefits them from a financial point of view and not truly seeking to follow God with cheer in all His ways.
To date I have found no person who says the NT does not teach tithing that does not also stand on a soap box and also demand that debt never be something a Christian willingly enters into.
I see a huge conflict here.
You miss my point. There are Christians out there, so obsessed with meeting the obligation of the tithe, that they are neglecting their other legitimate obligations that are part and parcel with living here on earth. Some are indeed borrowing money to make sure they have that 10% in the plate every week. It is a sad state of affairs. Sure the ideal would be for all Christians to have no debt, give 90% and be able to live off 10%. But that is not the reality anyone I know lives in.
Should a new Christian, who is carrying financial obligations from his/her BC life that have them completely financially over a barrel, ignore them and start tithing, even though they cannot afford it? I'm sorry, I can't find that kind of thinking anywhere in any instruction to the church.
As for me...I don't think debt is something a Christian should willingly enter into. It should be avoided at all costs, and if it is incurred, should be paid off as quickly as possible.
You speak of "precepts" in the Bible rather than direct mandates. The Apostles gave direct mandates for governing the Churches, daily lives of Christians, relations with the world, and relation to the Old Covenant law, and what is means to be an adopted Son rather than a tutored heir. I'll take those over ambiguous "precepts' any day.
Thanks.
Alec
_____________________________
Hab 2:4 - "Behold the proud, His soul is not upright in him; But the just shall live by his faith."
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2008 7:57:34 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TTABTG
It was not my intention to imply that God cannot be trusted to supply for anyone who worships Him...
You wrote :
quote:
You can pay your tithe off the top of your check every two weeks if you like, but don't say you are "honoring God" if doing that puts you behind on your bills, has your creditors calling for payment (or worse yet, you are using debt to pay the tithe), is denying your family necessary things like food and clothing.
To which I replied:
quote:
I have serious issues with any Christian who implies that God cannot be trusted to provide for anyone who would worship Him with a tenth of their income.
quote:
once was a member of a church that would ask all the "tithers" to stand...
That is an obvious contradiction to the Lord's teaching on the matter. It has no bearing on the Lord instructing me personally to honor Him with a tenth part of all that He gives me - not the leftovers.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2008 8:51:24 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1480
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From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TTABTG
...I once was a member of a church that would ask all the "tithers" to stand. They would then pray for them that the heavens would be opened to them and the belssings would pour out just like it says in Malachi. Then they would ask the "non-tithers" to stand, and would pray for them that God would bring them to a place of "obedience" in tithing so that they could receive the same blessing as the "tithers".
This practice accomplished two things: It built a spirit of pride in the tithers, and it shamed the "non-tithers" who would give as they were able.
The bottom line is that there is absolutely no instruction for the New Testament church to practice so-called tithing. All New Testament giving is voluntary, Spirit-led, cheerful and totally free will.
Alec
That's absolutely sickening!
It's as bad as some WoF heretic preachers like Creflo Dollar demanding members provide their W2's in order to prove that they are tithing
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2008 8:55:49 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TTABTG
You miss my point. There are Christians out there, so obsessed with meeting the obligation of the tithe, that they are neglecting their other legitimate obligations that are part and parcel with living here on earth. Some are indeed borrowing money to make sure they have that 10% in the plate every week. It is a sad state of affairs....
***Sigh***
In case you failed to notice:
I started honoring God with 10% of my gross income off the top when I was only marginally above the poverty level, married, and with two small children - before I had a mortgage.
That was in 1980.
Since then, I've put the children through college, paid off my mortgage, been laid off, and began a new career at 54 at one third lower salary than before. All while giving at least a tenth of the top of my income - often more.
Never, ever during that time did a single, solitary bill go unpaid, did my family miss a meal, nor go without adequate housing or clothing.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2008 9:02:50 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
That's absolutely sickening!
Yeah and it is like trying to prove Christianity is a lot of hooey just because hypocrites exist. The fact that hucksters exist has no bearing on intentional giving.
This reminds me of a friend who makes a point of saying often that regular exercise and watching your food intake doesn't insure good health. That friend is extremely overweight and sedentary while I have intentionally exercised and watched my food intake - and have shed and kept off 50 pounds that I had when I just coasted along like my friend.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2008 1:09:55 PM
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Soxfan
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Excellent article by John MacArthur:
Does God require me to give a tithe of all I earn?
...Two kinds of giving are taught consistently throughout Scripture: giving to the government (always compulsory), and giving to God (always voluntary).
The issue has been greatly confused, however, by some who misunderstand the nature of the Old Testament tithes. Tithes were not primarily gifts to God, but taxes for funding the national budget in Israel.
Because Israel was a theocracy, the Levitical priests acted as the civil government. So the Levite's tithe (Leviticus 27:30-33) was a precursor to today's income tax, as was a second annual tithe required by God to fund a national festival (Deuteronomy 14:22-29). Smaller taxes were also imposed on the people by the law (Leviticus 19:9-10; Exodus 23:10-11). So the total giving required of the Israelites was not 10 percent, but well over 20 percent. All that money was used to operate the nation.
All giving apart from that required to run the government was purely voluntary (cf. Exodus 25:2; 1 Chronicles 29:9). Each person gave whatever was in his heart to give; no percentage or amount was specified.
New Testament believers are never commanded to tithe. Matthew 22:15-22 and Romans 13:1-7 tell us about the only required giving in the church age, which is the paying of taxes to the government. Interestingly enough, we in America presently pay between 20 and 30 percent of our income to the government--a figure very similar to the requirement under the theocracy of Israel.
The guideline for our giving to God and His work is found in 2 Corinthians 9:6-7: "Now this I say, he who sows sparingly shall also reap sparingly; and he who sows bountifully shall also reap bountifully. Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver."
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2008 2:18:17 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
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Soxfan, great excerpt by MacArthur.
TTABTG, Good points made.
Not to throw a monkey wrench into the machine. But for all of those who argue about the tithe being BEFORE the law, they forget that the first kind of "giving" to God was the blood sacrifice. I think Cain and Able were the first documented in the Bible. The sacrifice does not indicate that either of these men were sacrficing to cleanse their sins. Rather it was some sort of memorial to God. Also heaps of stones and monuments were made. If we dare to go beyond what God has given us, we must go as far back as Cain and Able. Let us be reasonable.
I understand that there is no biblical reason to tithe per the NT: But I find that twisting the scriptures to come to any conclusions apart from what God has set forth puts the church in a position to be misused and abused by those who would "make merchandise" of them. And also to change the focus from the heart to a legal requirement. The most important thing to realize with the advent of the NT is that you can give your body to be burned, but if your intent is not that of love--not law; then it means nothing.
Let us be reasonable. Do not add to God's word.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2008 2:25:04 PM
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JimboFletch
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Interesting article, Soxfan. Howsumever, John MacArthur cannot speak for what God requires of me any more than your assertion that I can't speak for you. Fair enough?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2008 2:35:59 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
Let us be reasonable. Do not add to God's word.
As quoted earlier, Jacob said in Genesis, "of all that you give me I will give you a tenth."
That's scripture and has nary a thing about blood or produce.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2008 2:48:36 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1154
Joined: 6/2/2005
From: Midwest USA
Status: offline
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Again you miss the point, dear, dear jimbofletch.
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