RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread

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silvrstridr -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/16/2005 9:47:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: P31W silvrstridr, Man talk about an emotional roller coaster! I started out dancing and singing and ended up repenting and crying! I like the way he summed it up. If Jesus is not Lord over your stuff then he is not the Lord over anything. Is this your pastor? You are very blessed if he is. You can tell his true heart for the Lord and his congregation. Thanks for the sermon. I know God spoke to many people through this sermon. Absolutely. He was definitely called to ministry by God. I adore my pastor. His sermons are phenominal, and on top of it, over 2000+ people got to hear it. And it's available online! Btw, if you want, you can look at his other sermons at www.clcdayton.com. There's a video version of that money talk too.

christiancapitalist -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/16/2005 11:37:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: silvrstridr My pastor gave a lesson on tithing this weekend. Breaks down like this. With ANY money you earn (actual GREEN): This is how we should be living, biblically (approximately): Taxes 28% Giving 10% Savings 10% Lifestyle 52% Debt 0% (can be used, but should be paid off at the end of the month) This is how most of the US lives: Taxes 28% Giving 0-2% Savings 0-2% Lifestyle 20% Debt 48% Pretty sad huh? What's even sadder, is it doesnt matter if you are a Christian or not, the stats are the same. i completely agree with you. i've found that in my life, there is never a right time to tithe. there's always an "emergency" that requires my money. however, i'm finding that when i put God first, and tithe before everything, i can't help but be blessed. i'm not talking porche and mercedes blessed, but having enough to fullfill the call of God in my life. my God is so good to me, why would i not want to tithe?

shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/16/2005 1:22:47 PM)
That sermon, while well meaning and I'm sure heartfelt still shows all the trappings of the tradition that HK has been putting forth here. Let's put it in action.... So somebody like Bill Gates uses the formula. They make $110,000 million this year. As long as they pay taxes, give $1.1 million "to God", put $1.1million in the bank........ They can spend $71,500,000 on their "lifestyle" and rest assured that God is happy and they are fullfilling Gods Biblical wisdom concerning finances... GET REAL..... It does not work because there is a major component missing from the formula. We're not financially free because we pay a fee.... If the discernment doen't work for a Bill Gates or for a poor widow for that matter then it's flawwed and not of God. That's what you get with a quick, shallow discernment that misses the whole point and major concepts about finances in Gods Word. "Render to Ceasar what is Ceasar's and render to God what is Gods" A trick and misunderstood answer to a trick question possed to our Savior by people that think just like those about the 28,10,10,x mentality. The point was totally missed then and it continues to be missed today. When the Apostle penned the words, "Give as each purposeth in his heart" he didn't add "as long as it's 10% or more"... There is a reason.

P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/16/2005 1:53:40 PM)
Did you listen to the sermon you are discussing? You are not being honest in what he preached about. He said 10% is where one is to "start" giving back. Not the limit. quote: When the Apostle penned the words, "Give as each purposeth in his heart" he didn't add "as long as it's 10% or more"... There is a reason. When Paul penned those words he was talking about giving an offering to people in another city who were suffering. It did not go to feed the poor in their own congregation or to be given to support Paul or to be given to support the elders in their own church. Paul was talking about "giving ABOVE AND BEYOND" to those whom they did not even know. What Paul was talking about was pretty much like what our Director of Foreign Mission relief does when he goes around collecting money to help people in other countries: Here is just "one" of his request for money to help those outside the city from where he collected the funds. 1 Corinthians 16 1 Now about the collection for the saints: you should do the same as I instructed the Galatian churches. 2 On the first day of the week, each of you is to set something aside and save to the extent that he prospers, so that no collections will need to be made when I come. 3 And when I arrive, I will send those whom you recommend by letter to carry your gracious gift to Jerusalem.

notmycity -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/16/2005 2:25:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: P31W Did you listen to the sermon you are discussing? You are not being honest in what he preached about. He said 10% is where one is to "start" giving back. Not the limit. quote: When the Apostle penned the words, "Give as each purposeth in his heart" he didn't add "as long as it's 10% or more"... There is a reason. When Paul penned those words he was talking about giving an offering to people in another city who were suffering. It did not go to feed the poor in their own congregation or to be given to support Paul or to be given to support the elders in their own church. Paul was talking about "giving ABOVE AND BEYOND" to those whom they did not even know. What Paul was talking about was pretty much like what our Director of Foreign Mission relief does when he goes around collecting money to help people in other countries: Here is just "one" of his request for money to help those outside the city from where he collected the funds. 1 Corinthians 16 1 Now about the collection for the saints: you should do the same as I instructed the Galatian churches. 2 On the first day of the week, each of you is to set something aside and save to the extent that he prospers, so that no collections will need to be made when I come. 3 And when I arrive, I will send those whom you recommend by letter to carry your gracious gift to Jerusalem. Where in the NT are %'s discussed please? Where is the tithe discussed as applicable to Christians please?

P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/16/2005 2:50:31 PM)
quote: Where in the NT are %'s discussed please? Where is the tithe discussed as applicable to Christians please? City, I don't limit myself to just the NT. Instead I study the principles found in the entire Word of God. The principle of tithing is very biblical. In fact I challange anyone to show me in the Bible where God showed us anyone who gave back to him "less" than a tithe? To be very honest with you I don't "push" people into the tithe because it's the heart of the issue that God is looking at. I feel sorry for most people who spend a lot of their time trying to say "don't tithe". When I see that most Christians only give 2 cents of every dollar into EVERY tax deductable charity then it makes me very sad. Some Christians give more to the animal shelter than they do to spread the good news of Jesus Christ. I find it interesting also that most people who like to debate the tithe often times have problems with the organized church (not you City just a general observation) I have also found that people who have problems with the tithe principel often times come out of very legalistic churches who made the "tithe" more of a demand rather than an act of love and obedience. I also find that most people who spend a lot of time being anti-tithe also did at one time tithe but was doing it from a wong heart and can't seem to grasp the idea that some of us do it with the right heart and all the talk in the world can't change the peace God has given us in obeying the tithe principle. I don't know it's sad that so many people spend what appears to be more time telling folks not to tithe than they do telling the lost about Jesus Christ. On this forum I can hit the person's forum name and see what they talk about. It's sad to me that some folks just like to debate the tithe. That in itself tells me that someone's beliefs are out of balance.

notmycity -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/16/2005 3:53:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: P31W City, I don't limit myself to just the NT. Instead I study the principles found in the entire Word of God. The principle of tithing is very biblical. In fact I challange anyone to show me in the Bible where God showed us anyone who gave back to him "less" than a tithe?......... I find it interesting also that most people who like to debate the tithe often times have problems with the organized church (not you City just a general observation) I have also found that people who have problems with the tithe principel often times come out of very legalistic churches who made the "tithe" more of a demand rather than an act of love and obedience....... As I said earlier, Christians are to give. �We are called to provide for our own families�� need first (1 Tim 5:8). We are then called to minister to ��the household of faith�� (Galatians 6:10) We are called to help widows and orphans (James 1:27) , to support our local fellowship local fellowship (1 Cor 16:1-3) and even find some additional ministries to help along the way (financially, and any other way we can) (2 Cor 8:13-15). This is what we are called to do as Christians/disciples.� 1 Tim 3:2-3 says, �A bishop then must be blameless, ......... not greedy of filthy lucre (NKJ says not greedy for money)...� Can it be construed that there are ministers out there �greedy for money�? I�ve personally heard plenty that were. This can be jading. There are those too who are not necessarily greedy for money, but ambitious and wanting to �make a name� in their little (large) ministry. Like you, I too study the entire scriptures, but have found tithing to be applicable to the OT Jews under the Mosaic law. If tithing were taught, we would see it reiterated, and the law would have been cited as part of the reiteration in the NT. As far as a person�s personal conviction to tithe, if that�s the amount he or she has �purposed� in their heart, then that�s ok for them. If on the other hand people have their priorities out of whack and choose to be selfish with what God has entrusted to them, God will show them the error of their ways if they are truly His people. I listen to several great teachers of scripture and a few of them preach the tithe. I still listen to them, but have found through my very lengthy personal study that I believe they are in err on that subject, as I�m sure many of us are in various ways. As far as certain folks spending an inordinate amount of time on this issue, it kinda makes sense in light of the fact that it is one of the most misunderstood and abused teachings in the modern church. As I�ve said before on this topic, if godly teachers would start teaching �godliness with contentment�, along with rebuking covetousness...as part of the deeper doctrines, then giving would become a natural outflow of the hearts of the flock over which they shepherd.

shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/16/2005 4:32:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: P31W quote: Where in the NT are %'s discussed please? Where is the tithe discussed as applicable to Christians please? City, I don't limit myself to just the NT. Instead I study the principles found in the entire Word of God. The principle of tithing is very biblical. In fact I challange anyone to show me in the Bible where God showed us anyone who gave back to him "less" than a tithe? To be very honest with you I don't "push" people into the tithe because it's the heart of the issue that God is looking at. I feel sorry for most people who spend a lot of their time trying to say "don't tithe". When I see that most Christians only give 2 cents of every dollar into EVERY tax deductable charity then it makes me very sad. Some Christians give more to the animal shelter than they do to spread the good news of Jesus Christ. I find it interesting also that most people who like to debate the tithe often times have problems with the organized church (not you City just a general observation) I have also found that people who have problems with the tithe principel often times come out of very legalistic churches who made the "tithe" more of a demand rather than an act of love and obedience. I also find that most people who spend a lot of time being anti-tithe also did at one time tithe but was doing it from a wong heart and can't seem to grasp the idea that some of us do it with the right heart and all the talk in the world can't change the peace God has given us in obeying the tithe principle. I don't know it's sad that so many people spend what appears to be more time telling folks not to tithe than they do telling the lost about Jesus Christ. On this forum I can hit the person's forum name and see what they talk about. It's sad to me that some folks just like to debate the tithe. That in itself tells me that someone's beliefs are out of balance. There is no place in the Bible where God shows anyone tithing as it's taught today. Try Moses and Aaron for just a couple people who we have no record of tithing. Try everyone from Adam to Moses... Including Abraham who did give a tenth as reported earlier but it in no way points to a year fee structure for church members. The 10% is not a limit, true, It's not an upper limit or a lower limit. We do not have to be above a particlar % mark for our gift to be a worthy gift. Because as you say it's a heart issue. I'm glad you get a peace from giving at the 10% or above level, but that does not mean that those in lesser financial positions are somehow not blessed because they must first get to your level.

silvrstridr -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/16/2005 4:34:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShouldKnowBetter That sermon, while well meaning and I'm sure heartfelt still shows all the trappings of the tradition that HK has been putting forth here. Let's put it in action.... So somebody like Bill Gates uses the formula. They make $110,000 million this year. As long as they pay taxes, give $1.1 million "to God", put $1.1million in the bank........ They can spend $71,500,000 on their "lifestyle" and rest assured that God is happy and they are fullfilling Gods Biblical wisdom concerning finances... GET REAL..... It does not work because there is a major component missing from the formula. We're not financially free because we pay a fee.... If the discernment doen't work for a Bill Gates or for a poor widow for that matter then it's flawwed and not of God. That's what you get with a quick, shallow discernment that misses the whole point and major concepts about finances in Gods Word. "Render to Ceasar what is Ceasar's and render to God what is Gods" A trick and misunderstood answer to a trick question possed to our Savior by people that think just like those about the 28,10,10,x mentality. The point was totally missed then and it continues to be missed today. When the Apostle penned the words, "Give as each purposeth in his heart" he didn't add "as long as it's 10% or more"... There is a reason. Like P31W said, your post means nothing to me because you did not listen to the whole sermon. Sorry.

silvrstridr -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/16/2005 4:36:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: notmycity Where in the NT are %'s discussed please? Where is the tithe discussed as applicable to Christians please? tithe literally stands for "a tenth". and there is another verse that talks about the "first fruits" of labor or something along those lines. You didnt seriously expect %'s to be in the bible did you? Thats pretty ignorant... You have to examine things...

silvrstridr -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/16/2005 4:39:48 PM)
New International Version (NIV) Matthew 23:23 23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices�mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law�justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. Luke 11:42 42"Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone. Luke 18:12 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/16/2005 8:18:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: silvrstridr New International Version (NIV) Matthew 23:23 23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices�mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law�justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. Luke 11:42 42"Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone. Luke 18:12 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' Two examples where Jesus (MY LORD) addresses those that put tithing on a higher plane that it should be. Focused on a small superficial outward expression or act and missing 90% of the meaning. Hypocrits who in both cases were not on Gods A list.... When GOD call you a hypocrit you better take notice. So let's hold this up as a path to follow. I think I'll trust the truth I got from really knowing Gods Word.

4theLord -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 2:54:07 AM)
New International Version (NIV) Matthew 23:23 23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices�mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law�justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. This is the only verse that I found also where Jesus speaks directly about tithe.However this verse is directed to Pharisees who simple boast for paying the tithe and are called hypochrites because they pay the tithe and think that they are rightenous before God. They were once again putting their salvation on the acts and forgot the essence of Law, the love for God and your neighbour. Pharisees practised tithe and forgot that the tithe should be given out of heart for the poor, for those in need, for the House of God . Jesus wasn't against tithe in this verse. He critisized the Pharisees's heart who considered theirselves right before God because they were practising the tithe regularly. God looks after the heart to the persons.

silvrstridr -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 8:57:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShouldKnowBetter Two examples where Jesus (MY LORD) addresses those that put tithing on a higher plane that it should be. Focused on a small superficial outward expression or act and missing 90% of the meaning. Hypocrits who in both cases were not on Gods A list.... When GOD call you a hypocrit you better take notice. So let's hold this up as a path to follow. I think I'll trust the truth I got from really knowing Gods Word. I don't get what you are saying here, please clarify... Are you trying to say that the authors of Matthew and Luke are hypocrits for criticizing the pharisees? Are you calling ME a hypocrit? Please clarify your sentences with decent english and less selfishness, He is not YOUR LORD, he is The Lord.

heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 9:17:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 4theLord @heavenkeys You are challenging me to study the Bible in this topic. I still do not agree with you. I understand. I don't mind that you don't agree with me as long as you are willing to do your own study. Feel free to ask any questions while you study. quote: But I have taken your comments seriosly. When I finish my study I will reply. Thank you. quote: Let me do a question to you. How should the gift of giving should be practised by christians on their own church ? First by obedience to the written word of God. What most people do today is follow the traditions of men rather than the commands and examples of God. Please understand that there is no problem with a group of people having a building, but when they support that building with the primary portion of their giving, they are supporting something that will perish with this earth rather than those who will live forever. That building will not bring anyone to salvation through Christ Jesus. It is people, like you and me, and some of the others here, who are used by the Father to bring to Christ those whom He has called. Buildings are a nice luxury, but they are not necessary for the Church to function according to God's word. HK

heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 9:45:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: P31W When Paul penned those words he was talking about giving an offering to people in another city who were suffering. It did not go to feed the poor in their own congregation or to be given to support Paul or to be given to support the elders in their own church. Paul was talking about "giving ABOVE AND BEYOND" to those whom they did not even know. You appear to be willing to apply copious amounts of assumption in all this. It's one thing to be worthy of reaping benefit from one's service to the Lord, but you cannot show us one verse where the elders ceased to make their own living, therefore ceasing to be productive citizens within their respective communities. "Reaping benefit" doesn't automatically translate into the entirety of one's sustenance being a burden upon fellow believers. If an elder became itinerant in order to help maintain unity among the fellowships within a given city or locale, then they were certainly worthy of reaping benefit for survival. I don't think one will find anything akin to Robert Tilton in those passages. Far too much assumption is made these days concerning the elders, and even Paul, and what they received. Trying to force today's historic practice of anywhere from one to an entire group of men making their entire living from the people of a given man-made organization, well, you will search in vain to find any such parellel. Organized religion, and all its trappings, are nowhere exemplififed in any of the writings of the apostles. Don't get me wrong. I have no problem with a man who is itinerant making his whole living from the support of fellow believers, because making a living while on the move is almost impossible. Local elders, who give two to three twenty minute sermons a week are not automatically qualified as biblical leaders, nor automatically worthy of recieving of the primary portion of believer's giving. Anyone can attend cemetary school, or Bible college, stand up and project professional sounding, aristotilian rhetoric, and not at all be called of God. I challenge anyone to show me where local elders were allowed to leech their entire living off fellow believers. I can sell candy on the side and reap financial benefit from my labors in order to supplement the income from my full time job in order to cover costs, but that doesn't mean that I quite my full time job and demand that my pittly candy sales suddenly support all my expenditures. HK

heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 10:15:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: P31W quote: Where in the NT are %'s discussed please? Where is the tithe discussed as applicable to Christians please? City, I don't limit myself to just the NT. Instead I study the principles found in the entire Word of God. The principle of tithing is very biblical. In fact I challange anyone to show me in the Bible where God showed us anyone who gave back to him "less" than a tithe? Are you saying that the Gentiles in, let's say Philippi, gave a minimum of 10% in support of the real estate and the institutional "church" buildings they attended? No such things existed back then, so you must be privy to information that no man on the face of this planet can possibly know. Can you show me where the tithe in the OT was anything but food? Please don't assume there was no such thing as currency, because if that were the case, then Moses would never have penned God's instruction that made just one allowance for the tithe to be sold for money, and ONLY if the appointed place was too far to haul the tithe. Can you show me where any requirement was made for wage earners to pay a tithe of their wages? You will search in vain to find where wages were classified as a form of increase. Wages are a direct exchange for labor, not an increase such as one gets from crops and herds. Let's keep our feet firmly planted on the ground of reality, shall we. quote: I feel sorry for most people who spend a lot of their time trying to say "don't tithe". When I see that most Christians only give 2 cents of every dollar into EVERY tax deductable charity then it makes me very sad. Some Christians give more to the animal shelter than they do to spread the good news of Jesus Christ. What's even more sad are those who blindly "tithe" to their institutional "church" organization, most of which routinely abuse the primary portion of their giving in support of a dead structure rather than the meeting of needs. It appears that you have never done any study of the OT tithe, therefore realizing that 100% was used for the meeting of needs, not for the support of the temple structure. quote: I find it interesting also that most people who like to debate the tithe often times have problems with the organized church (not you City just a general observation) That's me. Say, if you want to criticize me, at least make some effort to read and understand the merits, which are biblically based, of my criticisms. quote: I have also found that people who have problems with the tithe principel often times come out of very legalistic churches who made the "tithe" more of a demand rather than an act of love and obedience. Obedience to what? The Law? The tithe, just like the sacrifices, was tied directly to the temple, which no longer exists. The tithe and sacrifices were also tied directly to the Levites, whose priesthood is no longer valid. What about the sacrifices? Why don't you practice a continuance of sacrifices? Are you authorized to pick and choose from the Law what we are all supposed to obey under the New Covenant? Upon what authority are you relying to make such authoritative, legalistic statements? quote: I don't know it's sad that so many people spend what appears to be more time telling folks not to tithe than they do telling the lost about Jesus Christ. You have truly mastered the art of assuming you have knowledge on the level of Deity. quote: On this forum I can hit the person's forum name and see what they talk about. It's sad to me that some folks just like to debate the tithe. That in itself tells me that someone's beliefs are out of balance. What's really sad is that you think that looking only at what someone discusses in this forum is indicative of the entirely of their pursuits in service of the Lord. You obviously gave no thought to the fact that maybe, just maybe, some of us are here because the Lord sent us here as an additional service to help free others from the legalistic bent of pro-tithers, and also from the bondage of false teachings, such as what we see coming from the pro-tithing camp. Wallowing in a pool of legalism and self-pity, and trying to splash some of it on those who are outside that pool because of their refusal to jump in there with you along with the rest of the crowd, well, those droplets of pity are misguided missiles that will never change the harsh reality that you have no biblical grounding upon which to stand. It's one thing to talk about the OT tithe, but entirely another to assume that which is demonstratably false. This sanctimonious pity is more of an inward origin than it is biblical, for the Bible stands as an authority that is completely antithetical to your conventionality. If you want people to take you seriously, then at least speak from the foundations of God's word rather than the traditions of mere men, which render God's word of no effect in the lives of those who need release from the bondage and curse of the Law. Injecting pity in the place of appologetics only serves to graphically portray the precariousness of your position. HK

heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 10:52:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 4theLord New International Version (NIV) Matthew 23:23 23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices�mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law�justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. This is the only verse that I found also where Jesus speaks directly about tithe.However this verse is directed to Pharisees who simple boast for paying the tithe and are called hypochrites because they pay the tithe and think that they are rightenous before God. They were once again putting their salvation on the acts and forgot the essence of Law, the love for God and your neighbour. Pharisees practised tithe and forgot that the tithe should be given out of heart for the poor, for those in need, for the House of God . Jesus wasn't against tithe in this verse. He critisized the Pharisees's heart who considered theirselves right before God because they were practising the tithe regularly. God looks after the heart to the persons. I hope you don't mind my adding to what you said here. I would like to inject the observation that many (not you) tend to manipulate a topic by applying differing rules of interpretation, depending on the subject. Context and setting are vastly important considerations for understanding the scope of any portion of scripture. Many people, when trying to use Jesus words to the pharasees as a means of focusing on the tithe aspect of that dialogue, most tend to conveniently forget the setting. Jesus was addressing a people who were still under the Lawful requirement to tithe, just as was the case with Malachi. All those people, in both time frames, were still under the Old Covenant and its stipulations. It would have been hypocritical for Jesus to teach disobedience to the Law to a people who were still under its direction. HK

heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 10:56:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: silvrstridr quote: ORIGINAL: ShouldKnowBetter Two examples where Jesus (MY LORD) addresses those that put tithing on a higher plane that it should be. Focused on a small superficial outward expression or act and missing 90% of the meaning. Hypocrits who in both cases were not on Gods A list.... When GOD call you a hypocrit you better take notice. So let's hold this up as a path to follow. I think I'll trust the truth I got from really knowing Gods Word. I don't get what you are saying here, please clarify... Are you trying to say that the authors of Matthew and Luke are hypocrits for criticizing the pharisees? Are you calling ME a hypocrit? Please clarify your sentences with decent english and less selfishness, He is not YOUR LORD, he is The Lord. I don't think ShouldKnowBetter meant anything derogatory, or was trying to apply personal insult. Identifying Jesus as "MY LORD" is not an attempt at taking Him away from anyone else, nor does it take away from His being LORD over all. HK

notmycity -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 10:56:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heavenskeys ...If you want people to take you seriously, then at least speak from the foundations of God's word rather than the traditions of mere men.... HK Amen HK. [:)]

shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 1:09:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heavenskeys quote: ORIGINAL: silvrstridr quote: ORIGINAL: ShouldKnowBetter Two examples where Jesus (MY LORD) addresses those that put tithing on a higher plane that it should be. Focused on a small superficial outward expression or act and missing 90% of the meaning. Hypocrits who in both cases were not on Gods A list.... When GOD call you a hypocrit you better take notice. So let's hold this up as a path to follow. I think I'll trust the truth I got from really knowing Gods Word. I don't get what you are saying here, please clarify... Are you trying to say that the authors of Matthew and Luke are hypocrits for criticizing the pharisees? Are you calling ME a hypocrit? Please clarify your sentences with decent english and less selfishness, He is not YOUR LORD, he is The Lord. I don't think ShouldKnowBetter meant anything derogatory, or was trying to apply personal insult. Identifying Jesus as "MY LORD" is not an attempt at taking Him away from anyone else, nor does it take away from His being LORD over all. HK The persons that Jesus were talking to were hypocrits. They practiced organized religion and "played church" all the while being ignorant of Gods Word and the full truth contained therein. The path they were on was going the wrong way. Also, thier heart was not given over to God, if it was they would exhibit justice, mercy and faith. What is not of faith is sin. HK is correct that many people wrongly use these particular verses out of context to justify a wrongly discerned position. The logic used is "JESUS told them to therefore we should also" or I've heard many word it as "Jesus told "US" to do it". Both are equally wrong and misguided. Jesus would have told them to also uphold the practice of circumcision or any other thing contained in the law. He was circumcised and attended the feasts Himself. If we substitute circumcision and applied the same logic. Then we would say Jesus told them to obey the law of circumcision therefore we should also uphold the law of circumcision. But we know circumcision is no longer a requirement and the Apostles made it clear that those that taught upholding the law were wrong. So the same scripture that negates circumcision also negates tithing or any other requirement. Remember that circumcision was a sign forever and Abraham started it. Funny that Abraham also started the tithe.... Those that hold Abraham up and proclaim tithing based on Him do not do the same for circumcision. They are doubleminded on the subjects. The scripture is twisted one way for tithing and then rightfully divided for circumcision. It just does not stand. The other similarity here is that before Abraham circumcision was not practiced same as tithing. So we see clearly that either of these as a "forever" principle also falls short. Tithing had a place and time. It's not for today same as circumcision or a miriad of other things they did before the New Covenant. The people Jesus addressed as Hypocrits are not a group to pull up as one to use as a role model. The worthy gift comes from the heart. We see time and again were those that give out of faith are blessed and the amount is irrevevent. When a person understands that then they are on good footing. That's why we need to forget all about the tithe just like our brothers and sisters did for the first 500 -700 years of church history. We need our foundation built on rock not sand.

jerseyguy -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 1:21:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heavenskeys What's even more sad are those who blindly "tithe" to their institutional "church" organization, most of which routinely abuse the primary portion of their giving in support of a dead structure rather than the meeting of needs You said this a few times, do you have data to back it up?

shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 4:40:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jerseyguy quote: ORIGINAL: heavenskeys What's even more sad are those who blindly "tithe" to their institutional "church" organization, most of which routinely abuse the primary portion of their giving in support of a dead structure rather than the meeting of needs You said this a few times, do you have data to back it up? I'll help HK out here with a different perspective on this issue. First, in the OT the tithe was never used for anything other than to feed those who needed the support. It went to Levites, Priests as there sustanance, it went to the poor, orphans and widows who also had no other means of support as sustanance, and it was stored up and used in a feast in which all partook. SO it literaly went into a living institution. Today the majority of church giving goes to a dead institution. It vacuums floors, powers the lights, water, heat and sound systems, big screen monitors, cushioned seats and pay mortgages. All these are dead things in an institution that we have called the church. This is not the Biblical definition of "the church" but one we have developed from our traditions. Giving, voluntary and without limit (high or low) has always been the Biblical method for funding daily church building needs. Another source was self imposed taxes and other acts of service which funded the daily operation of the temple system in the OT, otherwise known as the temple tax. So there is not data but the evidence sits in plain sight.

P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 4:50:35 PM)
quote: Today the majority of church giving goes to a dead institution. It vacuums floors, powers the lights, water, heat and sound systems, big screen monitors, cushioned seats and pay mortgages. All these are dead things in an institution that we have called the church. He asked for DATA not MORE opinion. Tell me about the Data at my Church? Etuy's Church? Jersey's church? Opinions are not what he is seeking. Too much of that already. DATA as in FACTS or STATS. quote: there is not data but the evidence sits in plain sight. more opinion based on very very very limited knowledge.

shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 7:04:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: P31W quote: Today the majority of church giving goes to a dead institution. It vacuums floors, powers the lights, water, heat and sound systems, big screen monitors, cushioned seats and pay mortgages. All these are dead things in an institution that we have called the church. He asked for DATA not MORE opinion. Tell me about the Data at my Church? Etuy's Church? Jersey's church? Opinions are not what he is seeking. Too much of that already. DATA as in FACTS or STATS. quote: there is not data but the evidence sits in plain sight. more opinion based on very very very limited knowledge. Perhaps, you could show from the scriptures where my "opinion" about how they funded church operations in the OT is incorrect. Rather than asking another impossible to answer question to misdirect and shift focus from the subject. I don't have access to your church budget numbers, you know it and so does everyone else reading this thread. That's not the point anyway, we're talking generalities about the norm of churches today, not specific congregations or persons. The fact remains: The normal congregation today has a building, a mortgage, utility bills, insurance premiums,.. and the list goes on. While these are geneuine needs of the congregation they are not what the OT Biblical tithe was used for in total. We don't need data to show this is true. I have never said that funding church operations is wrong. I merely point to tithe and giving, rendering opinion based solely on Gods Word about those two subjects. So, In the Bible what methods are shown and offered as an example of taking up collections for building a church/temple/tabernacle? What examples are listed in the OT for funding daily operation of the Temple/Tabernacle? Have I in any way stated an opinion that is wrong on these points? Same for tithes, have I stated any uses for tithes in the OT that are incorrect? I can cut and past a multiude of scripture that answer these if needed. Now why wouldn't we use these same methods for funding the same things today?

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