Criticisms of Evolution (Full Version)

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Method -> Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 12:20:43 PM)

Some claim that high school students should be exposed to criticisms of the theory of evolution. What are these valid, scientific criticisms of evolution?

Also, why aren't these criticisms being presented at scientific conferences and in the peer reviewed literature? This is a much more appropriate venue for challenging theories than high school classrooms. Do people really believe that 9th graders are the arbiters of science? If these criticisms can not stand in front of real scientists then why would they be appropriate for high school students?




swan42 -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 2:04:44 PM)

How science manages new ideas

1. introduce the claim
2. research
3. peer review
4. build consensus
5. teach the idea in the science classroom

How an ID proponent manages new ideas

1. introduce the claim
5. teach the idea in the science classroom

The lack of steps 2,3 and 4 are why alternate theories to evolution should not be taught in classrooms today.




drj11 -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 2:29:58 PM)

UCD is unfalsible!
[;)]




PromiseLander -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 2:38:01 PM)

When I reload my .375 H&H for squirrel hunting, (sarcasm) I know that 67 grains of IMR4064 is going to push a 300 grain Sierra Spire Point Boat Tail bullet at exactly 2,525 feet per second, producing a muzzle energy of 4,247 foot pounds of energy at sea level and 73 degrees... That's enough energy to safely hunt anything from Rhino and Elephant, to low flying commercial aircraft... This is scientific because it is observable, testable, and repeatable, all in accordance with the scientific method... (Not that I've hunted aircraft mind you, so THAT isn't technically scientific because it's not been tested, but Rhino and Elephant sure are)

Tell me why evolution is considered science again? And I mean evolution of Dinos to birds kindof stuff...




swan42 -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 2:45:54 PM)

quote:


Tell me why evolution is considered science again?

The first easy answer is because scientists say so. I know that's a really weak reason, but it is just barely strong enough for purposes of organizing a curriculum. We don't teach English an economics class because economists do not let English in their sandbox.




Jhud -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 2:50:45 PM)

quote:

The first easy answer is because scientists say so. I know that's a really weak reason, but it is just barely strong enough for purposes of organizing a curriculum. We don't teach English an economics class because economists do not let English in their sandbox.


So was everything that a scientist has ever claimed was science, indeed science?




swan42 -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 2:58:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

The first easy answer is because scientists say so. I know that's a really weak reason, but it is just barely strong enough for purposes of organizing a curriculum. We don't teach English an economics class because economists do not let English in their sandbox.


So was everything that a scientist has ever claimed was science, indeed science?


Obviously not, but ask the right question.

So was everything that scientists has ever claimed was science and followed steps 2, 3 and 4, above indeed science?
Yes.




PromiseLander -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 3:20:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: swan42

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

The first easy answer is because scientists say so. I know that's a really weak reason, but it is just barely strong enough for purposes of organizing a curriculum. We don't teach English an economics class because economists do not let English in their sandbox.


So was everything that a scientist has ever claimed was science, indeed science?


Obviously not, but ask the right question.

So was everything that scientists has ever claimed was science and followed steps 2, 3 and 4, above indeed science?
Yes.


So what you're saying is that since evolution cannot adhere to the scientific method, it is not science.

So, we can't go with the statement that it's science merely because scientists say it is science, because that's circular reasoning, right?

And if evolution is not science, then it doesn't belong in the classroom, right?




Jhud -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 4:08:04 PM)

quote:

Obviously not, but ask the right question.

So was everything that scientists has ever claimed was science and followed steps 2, 3 and 4, above indeed science?
Yes.


So you think eugenics was a science?




Method -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 4:17:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PromiseLander

When I reload my .375 H&H for squirrel hunting, (sarcasm) I know that 67 grains of IMR4064 is going to push a 300 grain Sierra Spire Point Boat Tail bullet at exactly 2,525 feet per second, producing a muzzle energy of 4,247 foot pounds of energy at sea level and 73 degrees... That's enough energy to safely hunt anything from Rhino and Elephant, to low flying commercial aircraft... This is scientific because it is observable, testable, and repeatable, all in accordance with the scientific method... (Not that I've hunted aircraft mind you, so THAT isn't technically scientific because it's not been tested, but Rhino and Elephant sure are)


Using this knowledge one can reconstruct a crime scene where such a gun was fired using evidence left over from the event. They can use the angle of the bullet when it hit the target and estimate it's speed when it hit the target. From that they can trace the trajectory of the bullet back to the sniper position. The science of evolution is the same. Biologists study the results of experiments that took place millions of years ago. The experimental results are preserved in the fossil record and in the genomes of living organisms.

quote:

Tell me why evolution is considered science again? And I mean evolution of Dinos to birds kindof stuff...


Evolution makes testable and falsifiable predictions. One of those predictions is that you should find dinosaurs with avian features. That is exactly what we find in the fossil record including species such as Archaeopteryx and Microraptor. In fact, this is a hot field right now given the recent discovery of a quality fossil bed in China were at least 10 new dino-bird transitionals have been discovered.

Evolution also predicts a nested hiearchy which is extremely useful in the study of genomes and proteomes. One of the greatest challenges after the complete sequencing of the human genome is to figure out what the gene sequences actually do. It's very laborious to pick a single gene and ferret out it's function. Scientists have discovered that it is much more effecient to use the methods of phylogenomics and comparative genomics to discover gene function (also called gene annotation). These methodologies apply evolution directly to the problem, and it is proving to be an invaluable tool for molecular biologists.

Evolution is a science because it explains biodiversity, explains the fossil record, explains the features of modern genomes, and is a useful tool for understanding the function of genes.




Method -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 4:19:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

Obviously not, but ask the right question.

So was everything that scientists has ever claimed was science and followed steps 2, 3 and 4, above indeed science?
Yes.


So you think eugenics was a science?


That only took one page. Wow, new record for Godwin's Law.




Method -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 4:22:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
So what you're saying is that since evolution cannot adhere to the scientific method, it is not science.


The theory of evolution does adhere to the scientific method. It makes predictions that can be experimentally tested, such as finding dinosaurs with feathers but no bats with feathers.

quote:

So, we can't go with the statement that it's science merely because scientists say it is science, because that's circular reasoning, right?


I absolutely agree with that.

quote:

And if evolution is not science, then it doesn't belong in the classroom, right?


I agree with that, too. But evolution is science and is being USED by scientists. If you plan on becoming a biologist you will need to be able to understand AND APPLY the theory to your work.




PromiseLander -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 4:28:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Method

quote:

ORIGINAL: PromiseLander

When I reload my .375 H&H for squirrel hunting, (sarcasm) I know that 67 grains of IMR4064 is going to push a 300 grain Sierra Spire Point Boat Tail bullet at exactly 2,525 feet per second, producing a muzzle energy of 4,247 foot pounds of energy at sea level and 73 degrees... That's enough energy to safely hunt anything from Rhino and Elephant, to low flying commercial aircraft... This is scientific because it is observable, testable, and repeatable, all in accordance with the scientific method... (Not that I've hunted aircraft mind you, so THAT isn't technically scientific because it's not been tested, but Rhino and Elephant sure are)


Using this knowledge one can reconstruct a crime scene where such a gun was fired using evidence left over from the event. They can use the angle of the bullet when it hit the target and estimate it's speed when it hit the target. From that they can trace the trajectory of the bullet back to the sniper position. The science of evolution is the same. Biologists study the results of experiments that took place millions of years ago. The experimental results are preserved in the fossil record and in the genomes of living organisms.

quote:

Tell me why evolution is considered science again? And I mean evolution of Dinos to birds kindof stuff...


Evolution makes testable and falsifiable predictions. One of those predictions is that you should find dinosaurs with avian features. That is exactly what we find in the fossil record including species such as Archaeopteryx and Microraptor. In fact, this is a hot field right now given the recent discovery of a quality fossil bed in China were at least 10 new dino-bird transitionals have been discovered.

Evolution also predicts a nested hiearchy which is extremely useful in the study of genomes and proteomes. One of the greatest challenges after the complete sequencing of the human genome is to figure out what the gene sequences actually do. It's very laborious to pick a single gene and ferret out it's function. Scientists have discovered that it is much more effecient to use the methods of phylogenomics and comparative genomics to discover gene function (also called gene annotation). These methodologies apply evolution directly to the problem, and it is proving to be an invaluable tool for molecular biologists.

Evolution is a science because it explains biodiversity, explains the fossil record, explains the features of modern genomes, and is a useful tool for understanding the function of genes.


OK, I guess one of my points is why do you take a critter that is similar to two others and automatically come up with the conclusion that it must be an in-between species? What is so wrong with a dinosaur with feathers that science has to claim it's an in-between species? It fits evolutionary ideas, sure, but is THAT the only reasoning behind it?

Now, I'm an Architect... If I go into one of my houses for a framing walk and I find about a dozen 16-penny nails lying on the garage slab, does that automatically mean that the whole house is framed with 16 penny nails? No, that's stupid. Then why can we go into an area, dig up a handful of fossils and make a conclusion about an entire species? I just don't see where we have enough information about ANY dinosaur OR bird species from fossil records to make the kind of conclusions that are made today.




Jhud -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 4:28:56 PM)

quote:

That only took one page. Wow, new record for Godwin's Law.


Godwin's Law refers to Nazi's, I didn't do that, though interesting that you made the connection so often denied...




Method -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 4:29:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

That only took one page. Wow, new record for Godwin's Law.


Godwin's Law refers to Nazi's, I didn't do that, though interesting that you made the connection so often denied...


I'm not stupid. Your only argument against evolution lately is the Nazi-Darwin comparison that you love so much. I do have a memory.




Jhud -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 4:37:23 PM)

quote:

I'm not stupid. Your only argument against evolution lately is the Nazi-Darwin comparison that you love so much. I do have a memory.


I didn't say you were stupid; just ignorant of the history of eugenics apparently.

And I am not arguing ‘against evolution' here, but against the notion that simply because a bunch of scientists call something science, it doesn't necessarily follow that the notion is indeed scientific.




Method -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 4:38:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
OK, I guess one of my points is why do you take a critter that is similar to two others and automatically come up with the conclusion that it must be an in-between species?


Evolution predicts which "similar to two others" species you should see and which you should not. If birds evolved from dinos then we should see fossils that have both dino and bird features. These are transitional fossils. What we should not see is a critter with a mixture of features from birds and mammals. For instance, you should not find a fossil with feathers, a single lower jaw bone, and three middle ear bones.

So it is the ability to predict what one should AND should not find that makes the theory of evolution a scientific theory.

And you are also ignoring the obvious. If birds did evolve from dinos what types of fossils would you expect to find? Wouldn't you expect to find fossils with both bird and dino features? There is no way to prove who the ancestors or descendants of these half dino, half bird species were. However, the theory of evolution was able to predict their existence before they were found which is very essence of a scientific theory.

quote:

It fits evolutionary ideas, sure, but is THAT the only reasoning behind it?


If it fits evolutionary predictions then it is evidence in support of the theory of evolution, is it not?

quote:

Now, I'm an Architect... If I go into one of my houses for a framing walk and I find about a dozen 16-penny nails lying on the garage slab, does that automatically mean that the whole house is framed with 16 penny nails? No, that's stupid.


These 16 penny nails appear suddenly in the house, did they not? Would this lead you to conclude that they were magically poofed into existence, fully formed, by a supernatural deity? No, that's stupid.

quote:

Then why can we go into an area, dig up a handful of fossils and make a conclusion about an entire species?


We can make the conclusion that there exists species which perfectly fit the predictions made by the theory of evolution. This is what good, scientific theories do, make accurate predictions.

quote:

I just don't see where we have enough information about ANY dinosaur OR bird species from fossil records to make the kind of conclusions that are made today.


We have their fossils. This means we know what their morphology was like. From this we can and do conclude that in the past there existed species which had a mixture of bird and dino traits. If birds evolved from dinosaurs this is exactly what we would expect to find, and we do.




Method -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 4:40:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

I'm not stupid. Your only argument against evolution lately is the Nazi-Darwin comparison that you love so much. I do have a memory.


I didn't say you were stupid; just ignorant of the history of eugenics apparently.


Why did you even bring it up? In the OP I asked for criticisms of evolution, not social darwinism (which isn't evolution).




PromiseLander -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 4:51:58 PM)

Nope... The existence of the nails proves there was a designer. [:D]
We know that birds existed before any land animals, so that alone means there was no transition between the two.

Incidentally, how do you experiment with evolution? Non-Hitler experimenting with evolution I mean. (since it fits within the scientific method) Could you go into detail as to how that's done? (As I said, I'm no biologist) It seems to me that you would somehow have to get one critter to change into another critter in a laboratory to do it, otherwise, you're just observing dead stuff that looks a lot alilke. Oatmeal looks like grits but they aren't related... Water looks like sulfuric acid, but they aren't related... I look like Elvis but we're not related... Point is, many things look alike, even sharing some of the same characteristics, but honestly have little to do with one another.




JonCo54 -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 4:53:22 PM)

Here is a good read from ICR.


Evolution Hopes You Don't Know Chemistry: The Problem of Control
by Charles McCombs, Ph.D.*

Download PDF Download Evolution Hopes You Don't Know Chemistry: The Problem of Control PDF

According to modern evolutionary theory, the recipe for life is a chance accumulation of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, and oxygen; add a pinch of phosphorus and sulfur, simmer for millions of years, and repeat if necessary. As a Ph.D. organic chemist, I am trained to understand the principles of chemistry, but this is not how chemicals react. Chemicals reacting with chemicals is a chemical reaction, and chemical reactions do not produce life. Life must create life. In the chemical literature, there is not a single example of life resulting from a chemical reaction. If life from chemicals were possible, it would be called spontaneous generation, an idea that scientists once thought happened in nature. Centuries ago, scientists used to believe that bread crumbs turned into mice because if you left bread crumbs on a table and returned later, the crumbs were gone and only mice were present. When true science got involved, they learned the truth that bread crumbs only attracted the mice that ate the crumbs. These scientists were quick to propose a theory that sounded reasonable until, that is, they studied the process and learned otherwise.

Proteins and DNA are complicated chemical molecules that are present within our body. Cells which make up the living body contain DNA, the blueprint for all life, and proteins regulating biochemical processes, leading scientists to conclude these components are the cause of life. While it is true that all living bodies have proteins and DNA, so do dead bodies. These chemicals are necessary for life to exist, but they do not "create" life by their presence; they only "maintain" the life that is already present. However, this is not the only problem with the "life from chemicals" theory.

Why do evolutionists vehemently proclaim the "life from chemicals" theory? Because if proteins and DNA only maintain life without creating it, then something else must have accomplished its origins. Evidence such as this points to an Omnipotent Creator, but they are not willing to make that concession.

Scientists can only look at life as it exists today, and try to determine how life originated in the past. They look at the end result and try to determine the process by which it was formed. Imagine looking at a photograph and trying to determine the brand of camera that was used to take the picture. Could you do it? Evolutionists have the same problem when they claim that life comes from chemicals. They look at the end result and propose a theory without ever observing the process. Scientists cannot study the past. Scientists can only look at the present and make theories about what happened in the past that would make the present the way it is today. When evolutionary scientists study the origins of life, they propose that all life resulted from chemical reactions by natural processes, overlooking the fact that chemical processes do not "naturally" behave in this manner. If you accepted chemical reactions as they occur, you would not believe that life came solely from chemicals. Is it legitimate to propose that evolution started in some primordial soup, when the long chain polymers that are present in proteins and DNA are so complicated that the level of chemical control needed during the chain building process is beyond the realm of natural chemistry?

Let's take a closer look at proteins and DNA, and the problems of their synthesis by evolutionary processes. Proteins are long polymers of amino acids linked in a chain. There are thousands of proteins within the human body, and they all differ by the sequence of the amino acids on the polymer chain. DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid,) is a polymer of nucleotides. Nucleotides themselves are complicated chemical molecules consisting of a deoxyribose molecule and a phosphate chemically bonded to one of the following heterocycles: guanine, cytosine, thymine, and adenine. Although there are only four different heterocycles, the DNA chain contains billions of nucleotides connected together in a long precisely ordered chain. The sequence of the human DNA chain is so complicated, that even with the sophisticated scientific equipment available today, we still do not know the complete sequence. Proteins and DNA contain a unique order of the individual components. The order of the individual components is not a repeating pattern such as ABABAB or AABBAABB, but it is not a random order either. The order in these natural polymers is very precise, and it is this highly ordered sequence that allows these polymers to perform their intended purpose in the human body. If the sequence is changed even slightly, the altered polymer is no longer capable of performing the same function as the natural protein or DNA. If these polymers were formed by evolution in some primordial soup, then we should be able to explain how natural chemical processes were responsible for forming the sequence of amino acids. Evolutionists would say that amino acids eventually combined to form proteins and the nucleotide molecules combined to form DNA, and from them, life. To someone not trained in chemistry, this might sound like a reasonable process, but this is not how chemical reactions work.

Chemists are trained to understand the mechanisms of how molecules react and how to activate molecules so they will react predictably and in a controlled fashion. If a chemist wanted to synthesize the polymer chain of proteins or DNA in the laboratory, the starting compounds must be first activated so that they will begin to react. The chemist must then control the reactivity and the selectivity of the reactants so that the desired product is formed.

The problem with life arising from chemicals is a three-fold problem: chemical stability, chemical reactivity, and chemical selectivity during the chain building process. But evolutionists propose that these complex polymer chains built themselves in a precise, unlikely pattern, without an intelligent chemist controlling the reactions.
Chemical Stability

Chemical stability is a question of whether the components can even react at all. By definition, all components in a hypothetical primordial soup would be stable, because if they were not, they would have already reacted. Amino acids are relatively stable in water and do not react to form proteins in water, and nucleotides do not react to form DNA. In order to make amino acids and nucleotides react to form a polymer, they must be chemically activated to react with other chemicals. But this chemical activation must be done in the absence of water because the activated compounds will react with water and break down. How could proteins and DNA be formed in a hypothetical primordial watery soup if the activated compounds required to form them cannot exist in water? This is the problem of Chemical Stability.
Chemical Reactivity

Chemical reactivity deals with how fast the components react in a given reaction. If life began in a primordial soup by natural chemical reactions, then the laws of chemistry should be able to predict the sequence of these chains. But when amino acids react chemically, they react according to their reactivity, and not in some specified order necessary for life. As the protein or DNA chain is increasing in size through chemical reaction, we should see the most reactive amino acid adding to the chain first, followed by the next most reactive amino acid, and so on.

Let's assume that we begin with the sequence R-T-X, and will add two amino acids "B" and "A" to it. If amino acid "B" is the most reactive amino acid, the sequence would be R-T-X-B-A. However, if "A" is the most reactive amino acid, then the sequence would be R-T-X-A-B. In a random chemical reaction, the sequence of amino acids would be determined by the relative reactivity of the different amino acids. The polymer chain found in natural proteins and DNA has a very precise sequence that does not correlate with the individual components' reaction rates. Since all of the amino acids have relatively similar structures, they all have similar reaction rates; they will all react at about the same rate making the precise sequence by random chemical reactions unthinkably unlikely. This is the problem of Chemical Reactivity.
Chemical Selectivity

Chemical selectivity is a problem of where the components react. Since the chain has two ends, the amino acids can add to either end of the chain. Even if by some magical process, a single amino acid "B" would react first as desired for the pre-determined life supporting sequence followed by a single amino acid "A," the product would be a mixture of at least four isomers because there are two ends to the chain. If there is an equal chance of amino acid "B" reacting in two different locations, then half will react at one end, half at the other end. The result of adding "B" will form two different products. When the addition of amino acid "A" occurs, it will react at both ends of the chain of both the products already present. As in the previous example, the major products would be R-T-X-B-A and A-R-T-X-B as well as A-B-R-T-X and B-R-T-X-A and others. The result is a mixture of several isomers of which the desired sequence seldom results, and this is the problem with only two amino acids reacting. As the third amino acid is added, it can react at both ends of four products, and so on, insuring randomness, not a precise sequence.

Since proteins may contain hundreds or thousands of amino acids in a sequence, imagine the huge number of undesired isomers that would be present if these large proteins were formed in a random process. Evolutionists might argue that all proteins were formed in this manner, and nature simply selected the ones that worked. However, this is only an ad hoc assumption and it ignores the fact that we do not have billions of "extra" proteins in our body. Furthermore, nature is not intelligent. There is nothing in nature to do the selecting all-the-while splicing together non-functioning (therefore non-selectable) amino acids toward a working whole. Evolutionists say that nature is blind, has no goal, and no purpose, and yet precise selection at each step is necessary. This is the problem of Chemical Selectivity.

The chemical control needed for the formation of a specific sequence in a polymer chain is just not possible in a random process. The synthesis of proteins and DNA in the laboratory requires the chemist to control the reaction conditions, to thoroughly understand the reactivity and selectivity of each component, and to carefully control the order of addition of the components as the chain is building in size. The successful formation of proteins and DNA in some primordial soup would require the same control of the reactivity and selectivity, and that would require the existence of a chemical controller. But chemicals cannot think, plan, or organize themselves to do anything. How can chemicals know what it is they're making? How can a chemical reaction make a protein or DNA, put it in an eye, heart, or brain, and do it without a controlling mechanism that knows what the end product is supposed to look like? This sounds much more like the work of an Omniscient Creator. Evolutionists have always been quick to claim that life came from chemicals, but their theory does not hold up to scientific scrutiny. Evolution claims that random chance natural processes formed life as we know it, but they fail to mention that their theory is anything but random or natural! This is the false logic of evolution. Evolutionists just hope you don't know chemistry!

*Dr. Charles McCombs is a Ph.D. organic chemist trained in the methods of scientific investigation, and a scientist who has 20 chemical patents.




swan42 -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 5:01:02 PM)

quote:


We know that birds existed before any land animals, so that alone means there was no transition between the two.


false premise




swan42 -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 5:03:37 PM)

quote:


So what you're saying is that since evolution cannot adhere to the scientific method, it is not science.

No, I did not mention the scientific method once today.




swan42 -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 5:05:22 PM)

quote:

So, we can't go with the statement that it's science merely because scientists say it is science, because that's circular reasoning, right?


Correct, that would be circular, but it is just barely strong enough for purposes of organizing a curriculum.




Jhud -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 5:11:31 PM)

quote:

Why did you even bring it up? In the OP I asked for criticisms of evolution, not social darwinism (which isn't evolution).


I was actually talking to swan; you just glomed onto it out of context.




swan42 -> RE: Criticisms of Evolution (5/22/2008 5:24:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

Why did you even bring it up? In the OP I asked for criticisms of evolution, not social darwinism (which isn't evolution).


I was actually talking to swan; you just glomed onto it out of context.

I have to be on my toes around Jhud, other than the occasional equivocation, he rarely makes logical mistakes.

My knowledge of eugenics history is limited. From what I know it is morally repugnant, but at the time still considered science. Today though to put it lightly, eugenics 'lacks consensus'.




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