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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/3/2008 10:10:09 AM
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Christian30
Posts: 185
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Stafford, TX (Houston suburb)
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Purplepixie87
" Spanking a FOUR year old for lying? Why on earth would you spank a child that doesn't even know what lying is or really *how* to lie. To a 4 year old, when they "Lie" it may just be their own little fantasy, it doesn't mean it's an actual lie. My 3 year old (who will be 4 in september) lies occasionally, but I know it is not an actual lie because she is not old enough to even know what lying is. I could understand if the child were 6 or 7, or older. But 4? That's ridiculous, IMO. Have you ever read scientist's and doctor's notes on child development? Children don't develop the ability to lie until they are at least 5, most of the time it's 6 or older. Most children don't know what lying is up until that point, and when they do "lie" it's something they imagined, because children that age DO have imaginary friends, and they DO have very overactive imaginations, so they may see something or hear something that wasn't even there. Is that lying? NO it's just being a child. So I'm sure the 4 year old was absolutely clueless as to what on earth you were talking about."
PurplePixie, I can see you follow some modern psychological standards. I have studied these things too, but they are leading you down the wrong path. You are fooling yourself and so is your 3-year-old. No, your 3yo might not be able to verbally explain what a lie is, but she IS MANIPULATING you big time to get her way. If I asked any of my young adult children whether or not they thought untruths were "fantasies" and not lies, they would start laughing. It's fresh enough that they can remember... and know better. Telling an untruth to "tease" you (as an adult or teen might) is one thing, but to tell an untruth to get your way or put yourself in a better light is quite another. It's called ORIGINAL SIN, and you won't find it in the modern psychology books. I know, as my son is majoring in psychology in a Christian college and hasn't found it yet.
BTW... the 4yo I was talking about... His parents have 8 great kids who are on the track to becoming responsible servants for Christ, and I am so glad they know what lying is and how to respond. Otherwise their older children would not be the delight that they are.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/3/2008 10:13:56 AM
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purplepixie87
Posts: 87
Joined: 5/29/2008
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I'm just stating what I learned in a parenting class, and a brief psychology class.
My whole problem with it, is that it's rather stupid to punish children THAT small by spanking them for something as menial and meaningless as a little white lie. Lying IS being a kid. Kids live in fantasy worlds a lot of the time, so how is lying not being a kid?
The ridiculousness however, is that people want to beat children just for a stupid little lie. Why not use some rational judgment here and instead of beating the poor child put them into time-out or wash their mouth out with soap? That makes way more sense than beating a kid for it. Regardless of what you try to do to stop the lying, EVERYBODY lies every now and then.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/3/2008 10:21:47 AM
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purplepixie87
Posts: 87
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Christian30
PurplePixie, I can see you follow some modern psychological standards. I have studied these things too, but they are leading you down the wrong path. You are fooling yourself and so is your 3-year-old. No, your 3yo might not be able to verbally explain what a lie is, but she IS MANIPULATING you big time to get her way. If I asked any of my young adult children whether or not they thought untruths were "fantasies" and not lies, they would start laughing. It's fresh enough that they can remember... and know better. Telling an untruth to "tease" you (as an adult or teen might) is one thing, but to tell an untruth to get your way or put yourself in a better light is quite another. It's called ORIGINAL SIN, and you won't find it in the modern psychology books. I know, as my son is majoring in psychology in a Christian college and hasn't found it yet.
BTW... the 4yo I was talking about... His parents have 8 great kids who are on the track to becoming responsible servants for Christ, and I am so glad they know what lying is and how to respond. Otherwise their older children would not be the delight that they are.
Actually, no, my 3 year old? In the past week she has maybe "lied" 3 times. No I didn't punish her for any of those times, and I'm not planning on punishing her for "lying" either, since everybody does it every now and then, and she may have imagined it. Or she may be talking about something that happened the other day. I also don't see any problems with a little "white lie" because my parents have spanked my daughter hard enough to leave red marks on her bottom and legs, so if I ask her if she has something and she says "No" (even though I know better) I just think about WHY she's saying No instead of giving it over. She's saying "No" because she's afraid of being hurt. So no, I'm not going to punish a child that's fearful of punishment and just tells a little white lie to keep from being punished.
I can understand your reasonings, but I have my reasonings as well. I'm not ever going to spank my children, you already know this, nor would I ever allow anybody else to do it (other than family---but when that happens it's when THEY are watching the kids....they are both very disrespectful of my beliefs and my parenting) but I definitely WILL NOT spank a child over a stupid little lie. Wash mouth out with soap? Maybe. Time out? Maybe. It depends on what the lie was.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/3/2008 10:35:27 AM
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peculiar_lady2
Posts: 11274
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: Between Hither and Yon
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quote:
ORIGINAL: purplepixie87
I'm just stating what I learned in a parenting class, and a brief psychology class.
My whole problem with it, is that it's rather stupid to punish children THAT small by spanking them for something as menial and meaningless as a little white lie. Lying IS being a kid. Kids live in fantasy worlds a lot of the time, so how is lying not being a kid?
The ridiculousness however, is that people want to beat children just for a stupid little lie. Why not use some rational judgment here and instead of beating the poor child put them into time-out or wash their mouth out with soap? That makes way more sense than beating a kid for it. Regardless of what you try to do to stop the lying, EVERYBODY lies every now and then.
as far as spanking or beating, we have a thread for discussions about that...a one stop thread so that the mods and admin can better watch that thread for violations...so I won't even address that here.
However, your thinking of what a lie is and what God says about a lie are two different things, and I will side with God on what it is and will choose to deal with it in my kids. It is SIN....if it is normal behavior developmentally that is only because we live in a world dominated by satan and under the control of sin...so of course kids are going to sin more and more as they get older...or be tempted to sin more and more as they get older. That doesn't change what a lie is though...it is deception and manipulation and shouldn't be overlooked or ignored. It isn't stupid to punish kids for sinning...in fact I would say the opposite is more true...that is would be more prudent of us as parents to not let things like sin slide.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/3/2008 10:49:44 AM
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purplepixie87
Posts: 87
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quote:
ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2
as far as spanking or beating, we have a thread for discussions about that...a one stop thread so that the mods and admin can better watch that thread for violations...so I won't even address that here.
However, your thinking of what a lie is and what God says about a lie are two different things, and I will side with God on what it is and will choose to deal with it in my kids. It is SIN....if it is normal behavior developmentally that is only because we live in a world dominated by satan and under the control of sin...so of course kids are going to sin more and more as they get older...or be tempted to sin more and more as they get older. That doesn't change what a lie is though...it is deception and manipulation and shouldn't be overlooked or ignored. It isn't stupid to punish kids for sinning...in fact I would say the opposite is more true...that is would be more prudent of us as parents to not let things like sin slide.
I understand that. I didn't say you shouldn't punish kids for sinning, it's just you don't have to punish everything the same way because not every sin deserves the same punishment. I know what a lie is, but some kids only lie if it's for preservation of themselves, especially if they are in a spanking family. For me, I never lied unless it's for self-preservation. I understand that you should punish children for sinning, but I'm not going to be one of the parents that punish their kids for every single sin they do because that would be hypocritical of me, since I did a lot of sinning myself.
< Message edited by purplepixie87 -- 6/3/2008 10:55:51 AM >
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/3/2008 10:55:27 AM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10132
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Cow country, Upstate NY
Status: online
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quote:
Lying IS being a kid. Kids live in fantasy worlds a lot of the time, so how is lying not being a kid?
No...pretending is part of being a kid. Lying is sin. It's still important for kids to understand the difference between pretending and real life. We work with our 3 year old on this every single day, and she usually gets it pretty well.
quote:
So no, I'm not going to punish a child that's fearful of punishment and just tells a little white lie to keep from being punished.
In our house, lying makes the punishment worse than the original "crime" would have merited. We take lying very seriously and have even been known to give extra grace when the truth is told without having to be forced.
To keep on topic for THIS thread, unless another person's child was left in my care, I would not punish someone else's child for lying. I would bring the child to the parent/caregiver, tell them the situation (or have the child do so), and let them deal with it.
Putting on moderator's hat...as Sarah said, we do have a one-stop spanking thread, so if you like you may take the spanking when/why/why not discussion there. Any further posts on the topic in this thread will be removed. You can find the spanking thread HERE.
Do not discuss this nudge in forums, do not PM me regarding this. If you have any questions, comments, or concerns about this, email community@salemwebnetwork.com.
Thank you,
PrincessDonna
<moderator hat off>
< Message edited by PrincessDonna -- 6/3/2008 11:01:40 AM >
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but on what is unseen. 2 Cor. 4:18
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/3/2008 11:03:12 AM
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peculiar_lady2
Posts: 11274
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: Between Hither and Yon
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quote:
I understand that. I didn't say you shouldn't punish kids for sinning, it's just you don't have to punish everything the same way because not every sin deserves the same punishment. I know what a lie is, but some kids only lie if it's for preservation of themselves, especially if they are in a spanking family. For me, I never lied unless it's for self-preservation
actually in our house we don't "punish"...we "discipline". I think the main difference is in disciplining you are bringing to their attention that something is wrong, why it is wrong, and showing them the right way to go. Punishment is not the same thing. I don't want to just punish my kids for things, I want them to learn to choose for themselves the right and wrong of a situation and not just be scared of being punished.
quote:
I understand that you should punish children for sinning, but I'm not going to be one of the parents that punish their kids for every single sin they do because that would be hypocritical of me, since I did a lot of sinning myself.
I completely do not agree with this line of thinking. We all sin....because we are all humans in a sinful world and are born with a sin nature. That doesn't change what is right though...and my personal sin choices have nothing to do with whether my kids do right or wrong. When they do wrong, they will be disciplined for such actions...just as when I do wrong I am disciplined for things. It may be a different kind of discipline since I am an adult, but believe me, God knows how to discipline even adults. It isn't the same as parents do with kids...but it is still there. We teach our kids that we do right because it's right to do right...and we don't put up with them choosing wrong just because "they are just doing what kids do" or just because we personally have sinned too. I don't see that as being hypocritical...I see it as living the line that God has set out in the Bible for ALL of us to live. If someone feels that it is hypocritical of themselves to say something to their child about a sin then I would question whether the parent was being convicted for some things that they needed to repent of...because the only time we are critical of ourselves or others is when we aren't looking at things in the right perspective or when we are trying to rationalize our own sin by rationalizing it in others. Sin is sin...and nothing you say or do or don't say or don't do is going to change that.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/3/2008 11:23:51 AM
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Christian30
Posts: 185
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Stafford, TX (Houston suburb)
Status: offline
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Well said, Peculiar_Lady and Princess_Donna. Your perspectives on sin are biblical, to say the least. Actually, biblical punishment for sin is death, and not a spanking, time out, or any other disciplinary technique. When Christian parents discipline our children we are "nudging" them toward doing the right thing, with the ultimate goal of following Christ.
Purple, I would PLEAD with you to take biblical enouragement not to rationalize your child's sin of lying. If your parenting class was not secular, I'm doubting that it was biblically based; then even if so, to much influenced with secular thought. I've already "been there done that" with my second child. It just manifested differently and it was harder for me to address, so I rationalized it. Our other 2 children were more "in your face" with lying and not so cute, so I dealt with them more proactively and they are much more honest adults. Our second child (fortunately) is at least struggling at the age of 19, but she is a chronic liar. I promise you that I even used the self preservation excuse with her.
Purple, I'm not trying to be condescending or know-it-all, but I have been through the whole proces of raising children and am literally haunted by how we handled the lying issue with our second child. So yes, at age 4 we SHOULD have been more proactive, and from here it is NOT COMPLICATED (at least not any more). As an older adult it is a deep sorrow of the things I did wrong. But you have time, as your child is so young, so that's why I say these things.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/3/2008 1:21:18 PM
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peculiar_lady2
Posts: 11274
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: Between Hither and Yon
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quote:
Actually, biblical punishment for sin is death, and not a spanking, time out, or any other disciplinary technique. When Christian parents discipline our children we are "nudging" them toward doing the right thing, with the ultimate goal of following Christ.
yes...very well put!!! That is exactly what I would hope someone would get out of my post!!!
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/5/2008 2:43:20 PM
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Mrs.X
Posts: 2209
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: Newberg, OR
Status: online
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Ya'll are getting really off-topic with the discplining for lying and the capabilities or lack thereof of a 4 year old topics.
Briar-rose, when you say "fingersmark", are you talking about a pink mark that stays for half an hour or a purple mark that stays for a couple days?
What is your boyfriend doing when he is not properly supervising the kids?
I agree with the poster that said your boyfriend should give his ex wife a heads-up about what went on when bringing the kids back over. Kids have a tendancy to exaggerate stuff. I remember one time my dad took me to a restauran that had kareoke and a bar right next to it. We sat in the restaurant part and ate, but we coul;d see and hear the kareoke in the bar area. I told my mom that "dad took me to a bar!" Needless to say my mom was furious and called my dad to yell at him. My point is, make sure the mom knows everything that went on before the kids tell her. It's better to hear, "while I was in the bathroom, sister punched brother in the stomach" instead of the mom hearing from the kids "she punched me in the stomach while dad wasn't around." KWIM?
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