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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 2:06:56 PM
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chrystar
Posts: 47
Joined: 12/10/2005
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Okay here you go
summary then:in answewr to you questions
1) If my memory serves me right I belive the context Jesus was speaking about was about swearing by Gods name or by any name as a way to prove your honesty was a practice the pharassies did quite a lot in jesus day. James also mentions not swearing, but I would argue that the context is much the same as what Jesue saidThat is much different then swearing an oath on front of witness and in front of god as a sign of you entering into a covent ( beacuase I beleive the last part of militray enlistment oath is "so help me God). Beside you logic is failing you. If you say we should not swear oaths as a covenet, then what about marriage, what about contracts with others. Sorry my friend you lose the argument on this one, you cant have it both ways, logic just isn't with you
2)you want a simple answer to your question when there is none- The best short answer I can give you is this; so what?, so what if they are christians, should that matter? If you argue that killing is wrong then it should not matter if they are christians are not. War to a solider is not about hatred.
Soliders do not sound the call to war, we respond to it, the descion to war is made by our leader, not by a common soldier like me or thosse I served with Again like I said I do not excect you to understand as you are physically unable to understand this. It is beyond you- see my previous post if you want to know more.
3)Hypocrites?- What makes us hypocrtes now is that our media in this country dosen't report on how many Iraqi fighters are treated in our hospitials, beacuse we shot them! or how we work with people in the Iraqi governement who faught tooth and nail to prevent us from invading during the intial invasion of Iraq, it dosent report of how US forces train men who only a few years earlier where trying to kill thoose same ones who are th training them. Like you ,the media just loves to rub our noses in the dirt at when christians are hypocrites ( or any one who for that matter, they live for bringing people down). It dosent report on how US soldiers risk thier lives daily to protect Iraqi and Afghan women and children from the monsters that are around them, it is the christianity in our militrary that makes this possiable. I have been there I have seen this , I have watched men in my unit who were part of the first invasion talk with Iraqi policemen who where there and they talk about trying to kill each other like you and I would talk about a baseball game. My point is that the american militray shows love to it enemies everyday, in ways that would surprise you, but there are enemies!, people who hate,. I would submit to you that the american militray is in many way the actual ideal that Jesus spoek about when he said love your enemies.
Look ,my friend if you want an answer to your questions then you will get them but you want answers on complex questions, so expcect complex answers
And what did I post orginally that was unbibical?- can you respond?
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zug-zug
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 2:08:01 PM
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follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
What about Exodus 15:2? When Christ comes back to fight in the battle of Armageddon I guess He is wrong? Amen Stephanos!
Jesus is perfect Judge and He can judge the world. No one else can!
quote:
Being a military man with 14+ in, I will not hesitate when in battle or war to engage the enemy in combat. Now whether the war is justifiable is to be debated...
You are being an American rather than a follower of Jesus.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 2:11:00 PM
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follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
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Crystar,
You made a rather long post, I will get back to you one paragraph at a time because you are making tons of unbliblcal comments.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 2:15:15 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 845
Joined: 11/30/2007
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quote:
You are being an American rather than a follower of Jesus.
Whatever! LOL
You failed to address Ecclesiates 3, what about David.
What about this verse Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Explain this one. Oh yeah welcome to Crosswalk. This is your baptism in fire! LOL You come right out of the gate into the frypan! LOL
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 2:23:31 PM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 6155
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
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I wholly respect the freedom you have to come on here and debate the biblical facts to Christians on here as to how being in the military is unChristlike. Not only do I respect it, but I also respect the fact that you can do this mere days after Memorial Day which btw is a celebration and day of rememberance for those soldiers who have not only served, but were wounded and killed for the very right that you have to talk about them;
I also respect that it's easy to tell someone they are unChristlike because they chose to defend your freedom to say everything I mentioned, as well as those who are defenseless. I have never served in the military so I'm sure it's easy for me to condemn a man who has stared down the barrel of a gun knowing that he was going to be dead if he didn't shoot first.
I'll make sure to tell my friend that he was unChristlike for killing someone who just moments before shot his arm off. I'm sure he'll appreciate the gratitude.
However, if you'd like we can remove the military all together. I do hope you're ready to live in opression unless you can say, "Praise Allah" fluently.
There are few things that truly offend me on this board, but I'm afraid you have come close. I'm sorry if this offends you but luckily I have the same freedoms you do; I just appreciate the men and women who fight for that freedom for me so I don't have to.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 2:24:14 PM
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follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
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quote:
Crystar
1) If my memory serves me right I belive the context Jesus was speaking about was about swearing by Gods name or by any name as a way to prove your honesty was a practice the pharassies did quite a lot in jesus day. James also mentions not swearing, but I would argue that the context is much the same as what Jesue saidThat is much different then swearing an oath on front of witness and in front of god as a sign of you entering into a covent ( beacuase I beleive the last part of militray enlistment oath is "so help me God).
You swear that the government now owns you. You cannot refuse anything they tell you to do without breaking your oath. They can order you to do anything, anytime 24/7. Now you have two gods. YHWH and your government.
quote:
Beside you logic is failing you. If you say we should not swear oaths as a covenet, then what about marriage, what about contracts with others. Sorry my friend you lose the argument on this one, you cant have it both ways, logic just isn't with you
Marrige is not swearing. It is only commitment to each other and no one else. There is no "I swear" in marriage: it's either "I do" or "I don't." Like Jesus says, "Do not swear at all. Simply let your yes be yes and your no be no. Anything more is of the devil."
Your comparison is like apples and aranges.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 2:24:41 PM
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chrystar
Posts: 47
Joined: 12/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: chrystar
so let me set you straight
1)If my memory serves me right I belive the context Jesus was speaking about was about swearing by Gods name or by any name as a way to prove your honesty was a practice the pharassies did quite a lot in jesus day. That is much different then swearing an oath on front of witness and in front of god as a sign of you entering into a covent ( beacuase I beleive the last part of militray enlistment oath is "so help me God). Beside you logic is failing you. If you say we should not swear oaths as a covenet, then what about marriage, what about contracts with others. Sorry my friend you lose the argument on this one, you cant have it both ways, logic just isn't with you
What about the logic of entering into covenants unequally yoked? Is it wise for a Chrisitain to place himself into a covenant with an enity that will possibly order him to commit sin? Especially if that enity doesn't honor Christ as King...
quote:
2)It is sad isn't it that there is war and death and destrution on this earth. and yes there are christians who are in militaires all over the world. Soldiers do not decide when the trumpet to charge is soudned, that resposniabilty lies on our leaders.
The call to arms doesn't absolve one from sin... Agents of the state can be sinful in their duties... The trumpet to charge being soudned doesn't toss the law of God out the window.
quote:
You say that we as soldiers sin beacuse of these things. Do you want me to tell you are right?, that it is a sin to kill, to hunt your fellow man through the ruins of a war-torn city. Of course it is a sin, it is not God will. but is it a sin beacuse I am/did this or dose it become a sin beacuse I wanted to do this out of hatred?. You like so, so many other, who have no clue about the military confuse killing and hatred. Read the book of Jousha sometime, I guess the subject of war and God is never mentioned there, despit the 10 commandements but I could be wrong....
Josuha was operating under the expressed orders of God, not man and a country that doesn't honor God...
John
Hey thanks for repsonding!
1) my repsonse was to the OP orginal contention that it is a sin to swear an oath in terms of entering a covenet with someone or something; While I diagree with you that that the military dose not honr christ as the king- you points are very valid and that yes you need to be aware of the orders that are given you and that ultimatly you are repsonisbale for your descion, but that responsiabilty goes to BOTH memembers of the covent, ethics is subject the militray actuall spend a lot a time and money on training for this very reason
2) What is the sin?, inlight of the above, is it a sin to kill someone who is trying to kill you? Is it a sin to kill someone in protection of another? This may be a greattopic for another thread, but murder is what was forbidden, not killing in the OT- mant of the OT laws had death as a punishment
3)oh so I guess now you want to take cheap shots at the president, that fine, that is your right to that :), a right protected by the miltray of the united states :)
but seriously- Yes Joushua was ordered by god to carry out war, but if God order war, then war itself with no other factors cannot be a sin, beacuse God cannot sin, so why would he order Jousha to commit the sin of war, or allow his soilders to kill?????
THanks for proving my point!!!!!- wish I had though of that!!!!!!
_____________________________
zug-zug
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 2:29:25 PM
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follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
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quote:
Words can be more harmful than bullets.
This is the lamest argument I've ever heard. And it's used all of the time.
Words can't blow someone's head off, rip out their insides, nor make children parentless. Would you like me to go on demonstrating how bullets are more harmful than words????
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 2:30:36 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3816
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
You failed to address Ecclesiates 3, what about David.
What about David?
quote:
What about this verse Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
True, but there can be an issue depending on the use of the sword... For instance Peter's...
John
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 2:37:07 PM
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follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
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quote:
Christar
2)you want a simple answer to your question when there is none- The best short answer I can give you is this; so what?, so what if they are christians, should that matter?
Yes it does matter if you are calling yourself Christian.
quote:
If you argue that killing is wrong then it should not matter if they are christians are not. War to a solider is not about hatred.
Yes it is about hatred against your enemy's country. You cannot wage war without hating them.
quote:
Soliders do not sound the call to war, we respond to it, the descion to war is made by our leader, not by a common soldier like me or thosse I served with Again like I said I do not excect you to understand as you are physically unable to understand this. It is beyond you- see my previous post if you want to know more.
I understand the military very well because my separated husband is retired military. You are serving your country and not Jesus. You have two masters, remember? You cannot have two masters.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 2:52:13 PM
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follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
christar
3)Hypocrites?- What makes us hypocrtes now is that our media in this country dosen't report on how many Iraqi fighters are treated in our hospitials, beacuse we shot them!
Christians who are in the military are hypocrites bcause the world knows Christians evangelize with "God is love". They are just using the common sense. They don't listen to your excuses.
quote:
or how we work with people in the Iraqi governement who faught tooth and nail to prevent us from invading during the intial invasion of Iraq, it dosent report of how US forces train men who only a few years earlier where trying to kill thoose same ones who are th training them. Like you ,the media just loves to rub our noses in the dirt at when christians are hypocrites
The USA is not the only one working for humanitarian purposes for the world. Please get rid of your arrogance, believing USA is godly nation and cannot do anything wrong is incorrect.
quote:
( or any one who for that matter, they live for bringing people down). It dosent report on how US soldiers risk thier lives daily to protect Iraqi and Afghan women and children from the monsters that are around them,
Your soldiers are risking their lives, and at the same time, they are killing their enemies. It is all about protecting your own welfare and selfishness. It is far from Jesus' spirit of love others as you would have them unto you.
quote:
it is the christianity in our militrary that makes this possiable. I have been there I have seen this , I have watched men in my unit who were part of the first invasion talk with Iraqi policemen who where there and they talk about trying to kill each other like you and I would talk about a baseball game. My point is that the american militray shows love to it enemies everyday, in ways that would surprise you, but there are enemies!, people who hate,. I would submit to you that the american militray is in many way the actual ideal that Jesus spoek about when he said love your enemies.
It sounds like self admiration.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 2:55:43 PM
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chrystar
Posts: 47
Joined: 12/10/2005
Status: offline
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hahahahha, are you insane?
Have you even been married?- I distctly remember our pastor ( who was also my army chaplain) saying "do you________ solemmly swear to take______ as your wife.....ect
hahahahaha, oh my, wrong again
as for the other, again you just simply dont get it, there are so many bibical qoutes about the govenemnt in the bible that I do not know where to began
"anything else is of the devil"..........that is funny, I mean serioruly you sound like the lady from the movie the "waterboy", LOL
as for the government owning me?-Your right while I wear the unifrom I am owned by them If you want to look at that way, but this was my choice, to server something I did beleibve in,much like my duty to Christ, the bible also states that slaves are to serve thier masters( par Jude) I am proud to serve my country, and you know why?, beacuse I LOVE what this country stands for, at least what it did stand for.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Tinkerbell
AMEN SISTER, WELL SAID, WELL SAID!!!!
_____________________________
zug-zug
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 2:59:46 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3816
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chrystar
Hey thanks for repsonding!
1) my repsonse was to the OP orginal contention that it is a sin to swear an oath in terms of entering a covenet with someone or something;
Regardless.... Who you swear the oath to matters...
quote:
While I diagree with you that that the military dose not honr christ as the king-
Produce a single shred of evidence that the military of the United States honors Christ as King... You won't.... The government of the United States does not honor Christ as King... Having Christains in the military doesn't mean the military does...
quote:
you points are very valid and that yes you need to be aware of the orders that are given you and that ultimatly you are repsonisbale for your descion, but that responsiabilty goes to BOTH memembers of the covent, ethics is subject the militray actuall spend a lot a time and money on training for this very reason
I am very aware of responsibility... Those in charge have a high level responsibility because they are in a place of authourity, as well those who claim Christ have a greater one because of the covenant they have with Christ...
quote:
2) What is the sin?, inlight of the above, is it a sin to kill someone who is trying to kill you? Is it a sin to kill someone in protection of another? This may be a greattopic for another thread, but murder is what was forbidden, not killing in the OT- mant of the OT laws had death as a punishment
The sin can be whatever... As stated the call to arms doesn't absolve one from sins committed... Simply going to war and killing the enemy doesn't make the action ok... If that's the case the actions of all soldiers is covered in all wars/conflicts/actions...
quote:
3)oh so I guess now you want to take cheap shots at the president, that fine, that is your right to that :), a right protected by the miltray of the united states :)
Save this for someone else... I served and I don't take cheap shots...
quote:
but seriously- Yes Joushua was ordered by god to carry out war, but if God order war, then war itself with no other factors cannot be a sin, beacuse God cannot sin, so why would he order Jousha to commit the sin of war, or allow his soilders to kill?????
THanks for proving my point!!!!!- wish I had though of that!!!!!!
Joshua followed the expressed order(s) of God... He wasn't simply waging war... It's a reach and then some to say that Joshua's actions by the expressed order of God are just cause for one to wage war. The military of the United States isn't the modern day army of Joshua and it's leadership doesn't honor God as Joshua did... Very clear and important distinctions.
John
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 3:03:55 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 10812
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
Okay, I had to post one more time, and then I'm gone. People like me are probably the ones he has issues with. Why? Because I have a military background.
You see, my dad fought in the Pacific in WWII, doing island cleanup. It was one the worst jobs imaginable, because it was his task, and the men he served with, to "clean out" nests of the Japanese soldiers who refused to surrender. You can picture how wild these enemy soldiers were; most of the time they either died by their own hand, or my dad and his troops had to do it for them. Then it was my time; I served as a doorgunner on a slick tasked to an AirCav group, flying missions out of the highlands in Vietnam; enough said on that. My younger brother served as a fire control officer on a Navy missle frigate, and lastly my oldest son served with the 82nd Airborne (15th PsyOps Bttn).
We're the guys the kid hates. But it's all right. He doesn't get it because he doesn't want to get it. That's why he keeps posting the same thing, over and over, trying to get us all ragged off at him. But I refuse to. When a man's unsure of where he stands as a man, that's about the worst thing I can concieve of.
So hats off to all of us who've served. To the swabbos, anchors aweigh. To the flyboys, keep 'em flying. To the jarheads, Semper Fi. And to us grunts, hoo-rah! 
Dismissed. Carry on.
Apparently we are kindred spirits and Brothers of the door. 69-70
I am very proud to have served my country. However there are times (mainly people) that I regret having served for. This is one of those times. 
< Message edited by Qtman -- 5/29/2008 3:10:52 PM >
_____________________________
Everybody has Eternal Life. But only two Addresses to chose from.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 3:21:31 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3816
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
(quote edited by mod)Can someone please close this thread?
You can't speak of fighting for the right of the opposing view and as well call for it to be stifled. You have solid points to debate so please don't do this disservice to yourself...
John
< Message edited by Kath -- 5/29/2008 4:35:52 PM >
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 3:22:22 PM
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follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Sad, just sad...............I feel sorry for you, maybe america has been wrong to you in some way in the past, I dont know,
It is sad that you don't have any qualms about killing your enemies as christian. Are you christian BTW?
quote:
I was hoping for a more academic debate, but all I am seeing from you, is WAR=bad, USA= satatnic
from you comment you posted that it is sin to kill other christians but not non-christians, I have doubt about your foundation.
I am talking from Christian point of view.
quote:
I will not respond to any more of your post, beacuse I dont feel that you are christaian, my thought is that you a a muslim visting our site, which is fine,
You are dead wrong. I am not muslim and I have been serving Jesus since I became christian 9 years ago and it is so sad that most churches are not producing godly fruit being so busy about protecting their own country.
quote:
but I think it is hard to have academic debate on the subject when we are not coming from the same foundation. I may be way wrong, but that is just the way I feel, I will be happy to repsond to you onother threads, but not this one.....
No one is forced to respond to any thread. I am just sad about your position and you are just another majority supporting the military and you are one of their representatives.
quote:
Jesus christ is the one and the only way to GOd, he is the son of God and God himself, he is the lord of my life, and it is by his grace alone that I will enter into his kingdom
If He is your Lord, read His Gospel and learn to serve Him instead your government.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 3:33:21 PM
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Kath
Posts: 16545
Joined: 2/28/2005
Status: online
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I need to remind you all of TOS 6 and 9.
6. You will not harass, threaten, embarrass or distress users, either in the community itself or via personal email, phone, physical mail or in person. You will not engage in name-calling or personal attacks in the course of discussion or debate. You will not post inflammatory remarks simply for the purpose for evoking reaction or starting fights with other community members (Often referred to as "trolling"). Overall, promoting a spirit of divisiveness in the chat and forums community will not be tolerated.
- Attacking the character or motives of someone who differs with your view or denying that he or she is a Christian is unacceptable.
9. You will not disrupt the normal flow of dialog in the community or act in a manner that negatively affects other members, including and perhaps especially in the defense of Christianity, in offering unwelcome spiritual counsel, or in debating doctrinal issues.
If another Christian disagrees with you theologically do not immediately jump to the conclusion that they are not truly saved just because they disagree, as there are differences of opinion in translating Biblical doctrine.
Sincerely
Kath
Volunteer Assistant Administrator
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message as I am unable to discuss it further.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns allowing time for a response during normal business hours.
Posts which ignore this warning will be removed without warning and may result in other action in accordance with the Terms of Service.
Please review our FAQ for an explanation of this policy.
< Message edited by Kath -- 5/29/2008 3:42:17 PM >
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 3:37:00 PM
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Kath
Posts: 16545
Joined: 2/28/2005
Status: online
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quote:
Christians who are in the military are hypocrites
This kind of comment is inflammatory (TOS 6) Please tone it down.
Sincerely
Kath
Volunteer Assistant Administrator
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message as I am unable to discuss it further.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns allowing time for a response during normal business hours.
Posts which ignore this warning will be removed without warning and may result in other action in accordance with the Terms of Service.
Please review our FAQ for an explanation of this policy.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 3:40:22 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6076
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
Hi, I am new here and I would like to get to know posters by discussing the topic.
Welcome!!
quote:
I would like to ask everyone why the military is approved by churches in America even though Jesus commands us to love our enemy.
My dad used to say the opposite of love is indifference, not hate.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 3:45:06 PM
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follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
Hi, I am new here and I would like to get to know posters by discussing the topic.
Welcome!!
quote:
I would like to ask everyone why the military is approved by churches in America even though Jesus commands us to love our enemy.
My dad used to say the opposite of love is indifference, not hate.
So you think killing your enemy is ok for christians because they are not indifferent?
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 3:47:17 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6076
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
Hi, I am new here and I would like to get to know posters by discussing the topic.
Welcome!!
quote:
I would like to ask everyone why the military is approved by churches in America even though Jesus commands us to love our enemy.
My dad used to say the opposite of love is indifference, not hate.
So you think killing your enemy is OK for Christians because they are not indifferent?
Indifference would be not caring what the enemy does or thinks.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 3:49:44 PM
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follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Indifference would be not caring what the enemy does or thinks.
So you think it is ok for Christians to kill their enemy?
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 3:53:04 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6076
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
quote:
Indifference would be not caring what the enemy does or thinks.
So you think it is OK for Christians to kill their enemy?
I think it's best for Christians to love their enemies enough to stand up to them when they are out of God's will.
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 3:56:13 PM
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chrystar
Posts: 47
Joined: 12/10/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: follower333
quote:
Sad, just sad...............I feel sorry for you, maybe america has been wrong to you in some way in the past, I dont know,
It is sad that you don't have any qualms about killing your enemies as christian. Are you christian BTW?
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I
Yup I am a cold blooded killer, full of hate and spite, so I will just happily go along with my evil master the US govenment and be on my merry way...it's been real folks!!!!!!
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zug-zug
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RE: Christians and military - 5/29/2008 3:56:45 PM
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follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
quote:
Indifference would be not caring what the enemy does or thinks.
So you think it is OK for Christians to kill their enemy?
I think it's best for Christians to love their enemies enough to stand up to them when they are out of God's will.
You don't have to kill anyone to stand up for what is right as christian. Many Christians get killed because they do what is right as Jesus' followers.
< Message edited by follower333 -- 5/29/2008 4:04:13 PM >
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