|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 9:18:51 AM
|
|
|
follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
Status: offline
|
Jimbofletch.
quote:
I resent your personal attack against my Lord and Savior and your rejection of scripture that refutes your position. I used scripture and you haved replied with hubris.
We are both using the Scriptures; we just have a great difference in how we use it. I am only expressing my version.
quote:
I notice you still will not address your claim that results in God ordaining and commending the very position you claim is sin.
Anyone can claim they are God ordained. We have to discern if they are in line with God. Only God is perfect.
quote:
You make God to contradict Himself and to use sin as a positive example of a Christian.
I respect your opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 9:19:26 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
quote:
Interesting that Jesus said in Matthew 10:34, "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
Perhaps you think tht was just metaphor, but Jesus was not using metaphor when He said in Luke 22:36, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one."
How you interpret the Bible shows where your heart is. We can twist it any way we want. Let's Jesus decide who is in line with Him. I am only sharing my convictions what I have learned from the Bible. You can take it or leave it.
I have twisted nothing. What peaceful function, one that supports your convenient opinion, does a sword have?
None.
A sword is a military weapon. Period.
When you have been shown the error of your position, you resort to implying the majority of the blood bought, redeemed, and born again body of Christ are evil twisters of scripture.
How convenient for you when you cannot refute the clear scripture.
As I've shown, your conviction is in direct contrast to Jesus' instructions and metaphors.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 9:20:14 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
What country are you from? A citizen of?
Does your native country 'love America"?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 9:23:05 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
We are both using the Scriptures; we just have a great difference in how we use it. I am only expressing my version.
But your use of scripture and conviction makes Holy God to ordain sin and, then, use a sinful metaphor for believers to follow. Your premise is refuted by the whole of scripture.
Here's a Bible tip I learned 40 or so years ago:
When the clear reading of scripture refutes your premise, it is your premise that is always wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 9:24:45 AM
|
|
|
follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Good morning.
I sat here last night and read this thread with tears streaming down my face. Some of those tears was from anger that some people would make such inflammatory post about the very people that gave their lives so they would have the right to make such statements. Some was at the administration for allowing threads with such statements to continue. Some was at the administration for threatening to ban anyone that could not keep their composure. But most was for the countless men and women who died for the freedoms we enjoy today.
Is the U.S. perfect. Of course not. Does this country have it's faults. Of course it does. But it is still the best place I have found to live to date. There are to this day countries that would have had some of the posters on this thread summarily executed for statements I have read here. But thanks to the U.S. Military this is not one of them.
When you people have buried as many soldiers as I have, then and only then talk to me about keeping one's composure while someone spits on the grave of those brave men and women.
As to being banned from the forums, I'll make it easy. Just close my account. I don't think I want to be a part of this anymore.
I am sorry you feel this way because there are two parties involved when it comes to wars. There are too many innocent people are involved even in your enemy's country. The military is a bully institution. The wealthy and powerful country always win. Jesus is not for wealthy countries, He is for oppresed people and nations.
< Message edited by follower333 -- 5/30/2008 9:33:21 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 9:26:40 AM
|
|
|
follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
We are both using the Scriptures; we just have a great difference in how we use it. I am only expressing my version.
But your use of scripture and conviction makes Holy God to ordain sin and, then, use a sinful metaphor for believers to follow. Your premise is refuted by the whole of scripture.
Here's a Bible tip I learned 40 or so years ago:
When the clear reading of scripture refutes your premise, it is your premise that is always wrong.
Ok, I respect your opinions.
take care.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 9:29:07 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
Anyone can claim they are God ordained. We have to discern if they are in line with God. Only God is perfect.
You misunderstand. I'm not claiming any special ordination that I expect you to accept. I am declaring that God ordained a structure for His Church that consists of teacher & preachers and also regular attendance and participation. You have given me the impression that you've arrived at your convictions apart from any guidance from believers.
Did Jesus have 1 or did He have 12 inner-circle disciples? Did He send people out alone or in groups of at least two.
Doctrine developed apart from other mature believers invariably ends up in error, sometime serious error.
The biblical principle is we are to learn and serve with other believers. Not alone.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 9:33:06 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
...The wealthy and powerful country always win...
A good place to learn otherwise is to read about Gideon.
quote:
Jesus is not for wealthy countries, He is for oppresed people and nations.
So, how did He accomplish the freeing of Jews and other oppressed peoples in Nazi and Japanese concentration camps????
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 9:35:51 AM
|
|
|
follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
What country are you from? A citizen of?
Does your native country 'love America"?
I am Christian and I evangelize all the same no matter where I go. I am from Japan and they have different needs. They don't have many people to reach out to them. I am spreading New Testaments to young people; most adults are not interested in knowing God and Jesus.
Jesus says that harvest is plentiful but workers are few. I am only doing what Jesus wants me to do; working for harvesting.
Your questions are irrelevant for Christians. Does it matter where I am from? I am God's citizen. I don't think they hate America, in over all. Japanes politicians love America and cooperate with them.
< Message edited by follower333 -- 5/30/2008 9:46:12 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 9:37:25 AM
|
|
|
fiat_lux
Posts: 283
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
Status: offline
|
Apologies for jumping in here. If it seems too rude please disregard.
quote:
Pacifists have a hard time existing without soldiers dieing for their freedom to be so.
Speaking as a pacifist, I am willing to die. I am simply not wiling to kill. I cannot someone that I love.
quote:
I wonder what this world would be like if not for us warmongering americans. Wow.
Jesus died for your spiritual freedom. Soldiers have died for your natural freedom
Would the world be a different place? It would be a very different place, that's for sure. Some people might be free who now are not. Some people who now are free probably would not be. And it would not be because of "American warmongering," whatever that might be - America is no more "warmongering" than any other great power, whatever that word might mean in this context, and it's a good deal less "warmongering" than a lot of such powers.
That said, I'm a little disturbed by this apparent connection between Christ and the kingdom of heaven on the one hand, and soldiers and the national state on the other. Ultimately I don't owe my allegiance to that state, and while I am grateful that someone would care that much about my freedom, ultimately my freedom might be worth my life, but it is not worth someone else's.
quote:
It was ok for God. It was ok for God to tell the isrealites to do. See...killing is not murder.
We are not the Israelites of the Old Testament. With Christ having come, we have a different relationship with God than they did before that. Christ tells me to love my enemy. Now this is a difficult command because it is rather difficult to "decide" to love someone. But at the very least I do not think I can kill someone that I love. Certainly not if my love for them means I am willing to lay down my life for them, as Christ taught and ultimately did.
Remember, Christ died for the lives of his enemies as well as his friends. Whereas the military would have us kill our enemies, for our friends.
quote:
I for one am glad not to have to speak german or japanese.
I am glad too, but this is not a discussion about what worldly ruler we'd rather accept, it's about how we'd rather go about dealing with other rulers than our own. How many people are you personally prepared to kill to retain your unbiblical "right" to speak English? Or - since I know that's being facetious - to live under a free, democratic government?
quote:
Jesus is gonna come back and slaugher billions.
That's his choice. But until he tells me to, I'm not going to slaughter even one.
quote:
By the way my son is a marine stationed in Japan, Okinawa to be specific. I could not be more proud of him, his free will choice to join the military, esspecially a marine, in time of war. That my friend...is a man.
That was a courageous choice for him and I don't mean to imply that he is not a Christian or anything like that. These are personal views. In the absence of an explicit teaching on Christ on this subject, I think ultimately we have to work this out between ourselves and our consciences and God, and in the short term some of us are going to come to different conclusions than others. I pray one day we'll know enough to agree on this, one way or the other.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 9:49:49 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
...In the absence of an explicit teaching on Christ on this subject, I think ultimately we have to work this out between ourselves and our consciences and God, and in the short term some of us are going to come to different conclusions than others. I pray one day we'll know enough to agree on this, one way or the other.
I suppose it would have prevented a lot of concern if God had told Peter to condemn Cornelius' profession after he was saved instead of not making an issue about it. Especially, if remaining a soldier was sin.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 9:50:35 AM
|
|
|
follower333
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/28/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
...The wealthy and powerful country always win...
A good place to learn otherwise is to read about Gideon.
quote:
Jesus is not for wealthy countries, He is for oppresed people and nations.
So, how did He accomplish the freeing of Jews and other oppressed peoples in Nazi and Japanese concentration camps????
We never know how God works. I will not make excuses against God's perfect love. That's all I can do. I don't worry about what ifs.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 10:01:10 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
...The wealthy and powerful country always win...
A good place to learn otherwise is to read about Gideon.
quote:
Jesus is not for wealthy countries, He is for oppresed people and nations.
So, how did He accomplish the freeing of Jews and other oppressed peoples in Nazi and Japanese concentration camps????
We never know how God works. I will not make excuses against God's perfect love. That's all I can do. I don't worry about what ifs.
I'm not talking about "what ifs," I'm talking about a very specific period of time that contradicted your assertion. You seem to escape to the mystical whenever I point out the actual.
God did not condemn Cornelius' profession when he commanded Peter to go show him the things of Christ. The man was a professional soldier - a centurian, a leader of soldiers. We don't have to shrug off the "what ifs" there either. It's a clear example where God either disproved your conviction or else He (again) approved something you call sin.
Neither OT nor NT supports the premise of the military being sinful.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 10:08:58 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
However, the sword, when wielded by a soldier, police officer or even the average Joe in defense of another, performs an act on behalf of his neighbor (see Luther's "Temporal Authority").
No, the officer and the soldier perform an act on behalf of the state. This may benefit his neighbor as well, but I doubt we can generalize so broadly. I can think of plenty of states where this is not really always true.
That point may not always be true but it IS true that the NT asserts that it is God that ordained the government wield the sword. And that statement was made during a period of one of history's harshest powers.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 10:19:54 AM
|
|
|
karlie
Posts: 16970
Joined: 4/10/2005
From: Central California
Status: offline
|
follower333
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com concerning the status of your account. Please allow time for a response and do not use any other names to post here. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Karlie
Forums Moderator
< Message edited by Kath -- 5/30/2008 4:09:33 PM >
_____________________________
1 day of coal...364 days of fun. I'll take my chances!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 10:50:02 AM
|
|
|
ta_mosquito
Posts: 11495
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
Status: offline
|
quote:
In the absence of an explicit teaching on Christ on this subject, I think ultimately we have to work this out between ourselves and our consciences and God, and in the short term some of us are going to come to different conclusions than others. I pray one day we'll know enough to agree on this, one way or the other.
Yes, exactly. But to say that others who come to a different conclusion are hypocrites or somehow less spiritual is wrong.
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 10:50:23 AM
|
|
|
armydude
Posts: 16899
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
When you people have buried as many soldiers as I have, then and only then talk to me about keeping one's composure while someone spits on the grave of those brave men and women.
I have not buried as many soldiers as you have, I'd guess, but I have buried a few. The grave of a person that died defending his country (even if I don't agree with or even like what his country stands for) is a place that deserves respect. If I were placed in a country that has fought the U.S. and saw a grave of someone that died in that conflict, I can honestly say that I know what I would do. This man was never my enemy. His country hated my country, but he was not my enemy. I would (and will when the time comes) treat his grave with the respect I would want him (or anyone) to use when I'm buried.
It's all about respect IMO. You can yell til you're blue in the face about the atrocities committed by some of our soldiers, some of their soldiers, most of our government, etc. But by golly those fighting men and women deserve our respect, and that respect does not go away when their in the ground.
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 11:55:33 AM
|
|
|
Qtman
Posts: 9937
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
When you people have buried as many soldiers as I have, then and only then talk to me about keeping one's composure while someone spits on the grave of those brave men and women.
I have not buried as many soldiers as you have, I'd guess, but I have buried a few. The grave of a person that died defending his country (even if I don't agree with or even like what his country stands for) is a place that deserves respect. If I were placed in a country that has fought the U.S. and saw a grave of someone that died in that conflict, I can honestly say that I know what I would do. [b]This man was never my enemy. His country hated my country, but he was not my enemy. I would (and will when the time comes) treat his grave with the respect I would want him (or anyone) to use when I'm buried.
It's all about respect IMO. You can yell til you're blue in the face about the atrocities committed by some of our soldiers, some of their soldiers, most of our government, etc. But by golly those fighting men and women deserve our respect, and that respect does not go away when their in the ground.
James warriors respect the fallen even if it is a soldier from the "enemies army". History proves this. The allied forces buried the Red Baron of Germany with full Military Honors.
_____________________________
MERRY CHRISTMAS! For those that do not partake Happy December 25th
Body Piercings
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 12:12:03 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: follower333
I ask all of you to show me where you find Jesus or His disciples killed anyone for self defense; you cannot. Jesus' messages are very clear. He does not allow His people to harm anyone much less kill even for self defense. They had plenty of chances to kill because they were surrounded by many enemies who were trying to kill them; they got killed instead of killing their enemy.
Jesus came down on earth to show us good examples, why not follow Him?
Moses was His people...
Exodus 32:26-28 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the Lord's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
Joshua was His people... David was His people... A man after His very own heart...
John
Jesus teaches us to be how to be desciples for evangelizm in the New Testament. God's people did not have responsibility to evangelize for Jesus. They had different responsibilities for God in OT times. Show me where you can find any desciples killed anyone for self defense in the New Testament. His Father also says to us to listen to Jesus.
God, Jesus, and the Word are not parts but one, God changes not, and Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.... There is a time and place for things. even war(if there is just causes) I showed you where death is the biblical punishment for murder and you were silent... The disciples had a purpose and that fact they did have a sword on their side is clear evidence of the wiliness to defend one’s self.
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 12:53:31 PM
|
|
|
fiat_lux
Posts: 283
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
Status: offline
|
quote:
God, Jesus, and the Word are not parts but one, God changes not, and Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.... There is a time and place for things. even war(if there is just causes) I showed you where death is the biblical punishment for murder and you were silent... The disciples had a purpose and that fact they did have a sword on their side is clear evidence of the wiliness to defend one’s self.
God does not change, but the covenants he establishes with men do. Our relationship with God, as non-Israelites (at least by lineage) now that Christ has come, is not entirely the same as that of the Israelites before the coming of Christ.
What is the Biblical definition of a just war?
More to the point, I'm not sure the disciples' possession of a couple of swords proves much one way or the other. The only time they tried to use them, Jesus told them not to.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 12:55:39 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
God, Jesus, and the Word are not parts but one, God changes not, and Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.... There is a time and place for things. even war(if there is just causes) I showed you where death is the biblical punishment for murder and you were silent... The disciples had a purpose and that fact they did have a sword on their side is clear evidence of the wiliness to defend one’s self.
God does not change, but the covenants he establishes with men do. Our relationship with God, as non-Israelites (at least by lineage) now that Christ has come, is not entirely the same as that of the Israelites before the coming of Christ.
What is the Biblical definition of a just war?
I believe as a country we have right to defend ourselves... We can't murder even ourselves so to speak...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 1:08:11 PM
|
|
|
Doc65
Posts: 277
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
Jesus said there is no greater love than laying down your life for others...this is what soldiers do.
Amen to that...
BTW follower333, do you pay taxes? Do you or did you attend public school? Do you follow the laws of this nation? Do you drive on the highways? Do you use anything at all that is paid for with taxes? If so, you are just as complicit in any guilt that you say that we should have as Americans and your own words convict you, to wit:
quote:
If you are with the organization who is sinning, you are sharing the same guilt unless they repent every time they sin or change their rules. Do they listen to everyone and change accordingly? Do your organization stop support the military if you don't agree with the practice?
quote:
No everything is from God just because you have material blessing.
Also, I have a huge question about this statement:
quote:
Jesus came down on earth to show us good examples, why not follow Him?
Jesus came to be a good example, huh...I didn't know that I had to win/earn/attain my salvation by following His "good example"...so much for Christus Victor and the vicarious atonement...this comment makes you no more than a Muslim (good works and acknowledging that Jesus was a great prophet and example) or a Buddhist (the exemplar mode of salvation and a treasury of merits)...
I seriously think that maybe you should reconsider/re-couch your arguments here as you are doing nothing more than successfully arguing yourself into a corner. You might also want to consider Christ's own words in Matt. 10:34 -
quote:
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
I don't even know why I keep posting...discussing this is like wrestling with a pig - everyone gets dirty but the pig enjoys it...
< Message edited by Doc65 -- 5/30/2008 1:21:33 PM >
_____________________________
"The Sovereign Lord is my strength; He makes my feet like the feet of a deer, He enables me to go on the heights." Hab. 3:19
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians and military - 5/30/2008 1:18:58 PM
|
|
|
chrystar
Posts: 54
Joined: 12/10/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
Apologies for jumping in here. If it seems too rude please disregard.
quote:
Pacifists have a hard time existing without soldiers dieing for their freedom to be so.
Speaking as a pacifist, I am willing to die. I am simply not wiling to kill. I cannot someone that I love.
quote:
I wonder what this world would be like if not for us warmongering americans. Wow.
Jesus died for your spiritual freedom. Soldiers have died for your natural freedom
Would the world be a different place? It would be a very different place, that's for sure. Some people might be free who now are not. Some people who now are free probably would not be. And it would not be because of "American warmongering," whatever that might be - America is no more "warmongering" than any other great power, whatever that word might mean in this context, and it's a good deal less "warmongering" than a lot of such powers.
That said, I'm a little disturbed by this apparent connection between Christ and the kingdom of heaven on the one hand, and soldiers and the national state on the other. Ultimately I don't owe my allegiance to that state, and while I am grateful that someone would care that much about my freedom, ultimately my freedom might be worth my life, but it is not worth someone else's.
quote:
It was ok for God. It was ok for God to tell the isrealites to do. See...killing is not murder.
We are not the Israelites of the Old Testament. With Christ having come, we have a different relationship with God than they did before that. Christ tells me to love my enemy. Now this is a difficult command because it is rather difficult to "decide" to love someone. But at the very least I do not think I can kill someone that I love. Certainly not if my love for them means I am willing to lay down my life for them, as Christ taught and ultimately did.
Remember, Christ died for the lives of his enemies as well as his friends. Whereas the military would have us kill our enemies, for our friends.
quote:
I for one am glad not to have to speak german or japanese.
I am glad too, but this is not a discussion about what worldly ruler we'd rather accept, it's about how we'd rather go about dealing with other rulers than our own. How many people are you personally prepared to kill to retain your unbiblical "right" to speak English? Or - since I know that's being facetious - to live under a free, democratic government?
quote:
Jesus is gonna come back and slaugher billions.
That's his choice. But until he tells me to, I'm not going to slaughter even one.
quote:
By the way my son is a marine stationed in Japan, Okinawa to be specific. I could not be more proud of him, his free will choice to join the military, esspecially a marine, in time of war. That my friend...is a man.
That was a courageous choice for him and I don't mean to imply that he is not a Christian or anything like that. These are personal views. In the absence of an explicit teaching on Christ on this subject, I think ultimately we have to work this out between ourselves and our consciences and God, and in the short term some of us are going to come to different conclusions than others. I pray one day we'll know enough to agree on this, one way or the other.
Fiat-lux
this thread hss made me so angry at times, but i wanted to take a second to say that while I disagree with many ofyour points- I respect your viewpoint and i think this thread could use more " respectful" comments from people, like you.
I can understand your take on pacifism, while not agreeing. Other posters on this thread have had , in my opnion a lot less class then you in posting thier objections to the militray and service,and I think you post cuts really to the heart of the whole issue. In that ones belief about a certian aspect of our faith, should not disqualify your from the faith completely. I particular that while you personally have iseuse involving service you are not willing lump thoose that do serve as sinner and cold-blooded killers.
So again while I do not agree with your point,my hat off to you for a well though out post!
_____________________________
zug-zug
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
