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RE: Fools following fools - 6/15/2008 5:42:58 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2580
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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quote:
Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?" 13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine."
We had an example of this last year at Pentecost. We have individuals at our church from diferent countries or speak different langauges. The first started the reading in English, the next Spanish, the next Russian, the next French, the next Russian, and so on all speaking at the same time.
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RE: Fools following fools - 6/15/2008 8:45:17 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1054
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: online
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quote:
Seems Paul had a real problem with things not edifying to the church I will not say anything on slain in spirit for I do see this as possibly of the HS yet not to the point that one preacher would just touch someone and the fall down and every person falls that he touches for if it is of the Spirit it is not in control of preacher just my opinion. So... according to your own post, if we have the fruit of the spirit we have self control, but if it is the Holy Spirit it is not in our control... So you pretty much just contradicted your own opinion. The point of self control is that manifestations of the spirit's activity (whether that be prophecy, tongues, word of knowledge, w/e) are released in the proper context (ie, you don't have thirty people trying to prophesy in the same space of 30 seconds). I agree with you that if something is "uncontrollable" it is probably flesh. But I think you will agree that being in control and sitting on your hands are two different things. A rancher builds a fence to keep his cows under control... but they roam free while on his land. That's the idea.quote:
Also would say if it is a part of preaching false doctrine then I would question it. Then you would always question it... because every single preacher has false doctrine somewhere. If you dump the water the second you see dirt, the baby will go with it.
quote:
There are a couple possibilities. 1, they could have been hard-hearted, and were seeking an excuse to not believe their message. Sounds like the argument I have heard a lot of Charismatics throw out in discussions with Lutherans...quote:
2, they were trying to rationalize the miracle of hearing their own language spoken, and thought they were only drunken babblers. Except that if someone speaks your language fluently, you don't automatically assume they are drunk... you just have surprise that they speak your language. If I see someone who is obviously latino, and they speak perfect english... being drunk is the last thing I wonder about. It is obvious to me that there had to have been more happening than is written in the passage. Let's face it, the Bible doesn't tell us how many times they breathed, if they ever tripped over a rock in the dirt, or even every single miracle Jesus did. We have to consider the fact that this was not seen as a big enough deal to be specifically preached against by the Apostles... do why do we feel such a need to rid the church of it?quote:
Paul says that God is a God of order, not of chaos, and what those people were doing was chaos. You, sir, have a very tame definition of Chaos. Someone fell over... OH MY GOODNESS! Tripping over a string in the carpet is not chaos. Dancing badly is not chaos. Feeling euphoric joy is not chaos. Having half the chuch "prophesying" in tongues at the same time... That's chaos. That is also what Paul was specifically addressing when he wrote "God is not a god of chaos, but of peace." Let them prophesy "one by one".quote:
Also, I again bring up that unbelievers who witness such events would, in my opinion, be turned off to the Gospel. Except that a ton of people got saved at Brownsville............... I have news for the world, people are going to get "turned off" to the Gospel no matter what. Watering down the message to one that has no power or supernaturality is not the answer to getting people into church and into the Gospel. If the church in America preached the Gospel correctly, most of the church would descend into unbelief.
quote:
Fact: The apostles were in complete control of themselves. They were not falling down or stumbling around or acting drunk. Based on what? Peter's message? I have heard people "drunk in the spirit" give amazingly clear sermons before.quote:
Fact: Everyone could hear them clearly in their own language. They were not slurring their speech or laughing uncontrollably. Peter is in full possession of his faculties and his vocabulary when he addresses the mockers. Fact: God confused the languages of men, so He is also more than capable of cleaning them up. Fact: Peter's message indicates that the witnesses thought they were drunk.quote:
Fact: The mockers were commenting specifically on the fact that everyone was understanding what they said in their own language. What was written in the Bible says that they commented about the language barrier being broken. Does that necessitate that that is ALL they said? Not even close.quote:
Bottom line: The mockers could not explain it, so they made fun of it. Right. What were they making fun of? They were amazed that these men spoke these various languages... that is not worth making fun of. So what was going on that made people think they were drunk? I don't know, I'm not going to venture a guess, but I'm willing to make an allowance for the idea that they looked drunk.quote:
2. Drunkenness is a SIN. The Bible states it plainly enough: Correction, the Bible says "Do not be drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit." Paul feels a need to make a seperation between these two. If I tell a kid, "Do not buy an Xbox, but be satisfied with a PS2." I'm saying the same thing. Paul says to trade the wine for the Holy Spirit... you would think that would be obvious to the church, right? So why did Paul have a special need to say that to the church that was operating in the gifts of the spirit?quote:
Yet you want us to believe that God goes against His own word and brings a 'blessing' of drunkenness on His faithful??? No way. Ephesians 5... Do not be drunk with wine, but be filled with the Spirit. Enough said.quote:
3. Christians are called to self-control: Define self-control, please. I can laugh "uncontrollably" at a joke and still be in complete control of myself. By your apparent definition of self contol, I shouldn't watch stand-up comedy because it causes me to lose "control".quote:
Let's replace 'drunk in the spirit' with something else from the Galatians & Corinthians list of sins and see how this sounds:
Debauchery in the Spirit
Envy in the Spirit
Orgy in the Spirit
Witchcraft in the Spirit
Prostitution in the Spirit
Adultery in the Spirit
Does that sit well with you? If not, then 'drunk in the Spirit' shouldn't sit well with you, either. What's next? Cocaine in the Spirit? Meth in the Spirit? Heroine in the Spirit? Sure... why not.
Keep going... maybe that scarecrow will run off in search of a brain with a lion, a tinman, and a girl from Kansas...quote:
The Bible lists the gifts of the Holy Spirit quite clearly enough and there is no justification to go beyond that and start adding to that list. The Bible also describes the behaviors of those truly filled with the Holy Spirit, and drunken behavior is not part of the description. Considering that 'drunk in the spirit' is specifically listed as a judgment and condemnation but is found nowhere as a blessing or a gift, I will take the Bible's word over your word. O, sir! Thou dost wound me! (/end sarcasm) Considering that you already have a pretty low opinion of my word, that doesn't surprise me in the least.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Fools following fools - 6/15/2008 10:16:54 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1202
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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If you feel confident in saying...
quote:
I have news for the world, people are going to get "turned off" to the Gospel no matter what.
...Then why do you have a problem with this?
quote:
What were they making fun of? They were amazed that these men spoke these various languages... that is not worth making fun of.
It seems simple enough to me that if someone was not happy hearing the Gospel (and clearly, some present were not), and something miraculous involving the way people spoke was happening (and again, clearly, it was), it seems reasonable that an attack on their character in the form of an accusation of drunkenness.
quote:
Paul says to trade the wine for the Holy Spirit... you would think that would be obvious to the church, right? So why did Paul have a special need to say that to the church that was operating in the gifts of the spirit?
Your argument doesn't work in context. Clearly, nobody was confusing wisdom with unwisdom (v. 15), or foolishness with God's will (v. 17). Verse 15 sets the meaning of this passage clear - Paul is giving instructions on how to live according to God's will. He draws contrasts between different areas (as I've mentioned in this paragraph), the foolish and the wise. If you want to suggest that those who are filled by the Spirit are easily mistaken for those who are foolish, then go for it. I would like to believe that those who are living according to God's will are distinguishable from the foolishness of the world.
quote:
You, sir, have a very tame definition of Chaos.
Chaos is, to some extent, relative. If I'm at a sporting event, I would expect people to be a little zany. If I were at a rock concert, some dancing about "chaos" would be fine, because that's how it's supposed to be there.
But in a worship service? Paul commands that an untranslated tongue be spoken quietly, to oneself - why should other loud, disruptive activities be allowed?
*edited to add that last part right up above this*
< Message edited by MrFribbles -- 6/15/2008 10:27:43 PM >
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Fools following fools - 6/15/2008 10:47:23 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1157
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
FurGodWurLivin: Ephesians 5... Do not be drunk with wine, but be filled with the Spirit. Enough said.
Eph 5:18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.
Are you honestly interpreting this to say that being filled with the Spirit is similar to being drunk on wine, WHICH LEADS TO DEBAUCHERY? What Paul said is very simple: Don't be drunk with wine. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. INSTEAD.
It should be clear enough that these are two completely separate actions, and there is no comparing them since one leads to sin while the other leads to Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit does not lead people into sinful behavior. Paul makes no connection at all that being filled with the Spirit will cause people to act drunk. One must seriously twist scriptures to get that out of that passage.
quote:
Keep going... maybe that scarecrow will run off in search of a brain with a lion, a tinman, and a girl from Kansas...
It's a perfectly valid point, but once again, no real answer from you.
quote:
Considering that you already have a pretty low opinion of my word, that doesn't surprise me in the least.
Your word has time and time again been at odds with scripture.
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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