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HisFish -> Fools following fools (5/30/2008 1:30:43 PM)

There are a lot of people who follow after "fools". When you see it like this it is almost impossible to understand why
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evJt2rqtTrs



P31W -> RE: Fools following fools (5/30/2008 1:55:45 PM)

It just blows me away when I realize just how many people fall for this stuff. Can you believe it?



colliefan -> RE: Fools following fools (5/30/2008 4:48:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W
It just blows me away when I realize just how many people fall for this stuff. Can you believe it?


Unfortunately, I can as the Scriptures indicate there will be teachers such as these on the video.



Doc65 -> RE: Fools following fools (5/30/2008 6:16:35 PM)

So...painful...to watch......must...gouge...out...eyes....[sm=yummy.gif]



MrFribbles -> RE: Fools following fools (5/30/2008 6:56:01 PM)

The really sad part to me is, not only are our brothers and sisters in Christ being led astray by these... Interesting individuals... But the outside world is seeing how ridiculous they are, and it's making a mockery of our Savior!



earthless -> RE: Fools following fools (5/30/2008 7:26:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

The really sad part to me is, not only are our brothers and sisters in Christ being led astray by these... Interesting individuals... But the outside world is seeing how ridiculous they are, and it's making a mockery of our Savior!


Two for the price of one for Satan and the demonic realm.



IMA_CHRISTIAN -> RE: Fools following fools (6/9/2008 1:23:10 PM)

anyone who watches this stuff can see how ridiculous and un-Scriptural it is.

But the worst part is - there are folks that DEFEND THESE FOOLISH PREACHERS.



Heavendweller -> RE: Fools following fools (6/9/2008 2:07:04 PM)

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. And we wonder why atheism is so popular. With imposters like these, what could draw a person to Christianity?

When I first became a Christian (from an atheist/agnostic home) I encountered these kind of holy roller, off their rocker, false Christians. Not knowing hardly any Holy Scripture, I knew something was really off. And they scared the living daylights outta me.

Blind fools leading the blind and both are falling into a pit.

Heavendweller



musicboss11 -> RE: Fools following fools (6/9/2008 5:07:29 PM)

I love the song that the person used in the video. Great song.



prophet -> RE: Fools following fools (6/9/2008 8:16:50 PM)

We may well laugh at such but i remebered when i posted about the Alpha course and some here says its scriptural and yet opposes such as the latter rain teachings and toronto blessings(TB) type. How well the devil has disguised leaven, has it not?

If those who would trace this course, they will find that it lands at the doorsteps of the TB, Latter Rain, Kansas City Prophets, etc and yet they will defend the Alpha course.

Tells us something, does it not? Even those of us who have oppposed such can STILL be fooled.... [:o]



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Fools following fools (6/10/2008 4:52:23 AM)

"If a man says to his brother, 'Raca!' he will be answerable to the Sanhedrin. If anyone says 'you fool', he shall be in danger of eternal judgement."-- Jesus

I looked at the video. I'm unimpressed. I see a couple of old school revivalists, a couple of dead guys, a smattering of WoF'ers, and couple people that can't dance but try anyway. Here is my simple question... why are physical manifestations of the spirit so looked down upon? God is more than capable of directly affecting the physical world, and He is way more powerful than ourselves.

Adam



earthless -> RE: Fools following fools (6/10/2008 8:49:17 AM)

Adam,

Why do you assume those are genuine moves of the Holy Spirit? Does the Spirit move where there is rank heresy and false prophets at work?

Where do you draw the line between what is sound doctrine and what are man made or demonic teachings?



Heavendweller -> RE: Fools following fools (6/10/2008 10:36:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Here is my simple question... why are physical manifestations of the spirit so looked down upon? God is more than capable of directly affecting the physical world, and He is way more powerful than ourselves.

Adam

Adam,
Why do you think they are "physical manifestations of the spirit?" I ask this question because Jesus told us there would be wolves, those who profess to be Christians, but are really deceivers. What is it that these physical manifestations are doing that would cause you to believe they are of God?

You are right, we should not call our brother or sister a fool. But the book of Proverbs talks about all kinds of fools and what they do. The Apostles had serious words to say about those who claimed to be following God, but indeed were leading others astray (false brethren). How is it that what these peachers are doing giving glory to God? Is it possible that they are really bringing shame and scandal upon God's church?

I know, a lot of questions. But, if one is going to say these preachers and their actions are led by the Holy Spirit, then one should examine their teachings, claims, and fruit, and be able to proove such. If on the other hand, one is going to say the opposite, one must be able to do the same.

One thing that sickened me was what Benny Hinn's wife said, about the enema. I cannot even in good conscience put the two together in one sentence. How can one who knows and loves Christ and is filled with the precious Holy Spirit speak of Him in such vulgar, offensive terms?

Well, enough said for now.

Heavendweller



Bro_Shane -> RE: Fools following fools (6/10/2008 2:42:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin

"If a man says to his brother, 'Raca!' he will be answerable to the Sanhedrin. If anyone says 'you fool', he shall be in danger of eternal judgement."-- Jesus

I looked at the video. I'm unimpressed. I see a couple of old school revivalists, a couple of dead guys, a smattering of WoF'ers, and couple people that can't dance but try anyway. Here is my simple question... why are physical manifestations of the spirit so looked down upon? God is more than capable of directly affecting the physical world, and He is way more powerful than ourselves.

Adam


The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of truth. We are also told:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The foolishness you saw in the video, tell me, in what way did it teach us about Christ? What parts of scripture did it bring us to remember? If you are going to say this was a true moving of the Spirit, then please show how it lines up with scripture. No one barked like dogs at Pentecost. Neither Peter nor Paul preached about us all having nice houses and large bank accounts. There is not once instance of people flopping around like fish when the Holy Spirit moves. In fact, in scripture we see quite the opposite:

Luke 9:38-40 And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child. [39] And, lo, a spirit taketh him, and he suddenly crieth out; and it teareth him that he foameth again, and bruising him hardly departeth from him. [40] And I besought thy disciples to cast him out; and they could not. - emphasis mine

Now look at the reaction of Christ:

Luke 9:42 And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father.

Now I ask you, with all respect and love, does what you see in the video look more like Pentecost or the account in Luke?

Even though I do hold pretty much a cessationist view, I can agree to disagree with those who don't. Who knows, I could even be shown to be wrong on the issue. What I do know for sure is that God does not make His children act like dogs, and that disorder in an assembly does not come from God.



HisFish -> RE: Fools following fools (6/10/2008 10:05:20 PM)

quote:

If a man says to his brother, 'Raca!' he will be answerable to the Sanhedrin. If anyone says 'you fool', he shall be in danger of eternal judgement."-- Jesus

Ill chance it. Those WOF carnival barkers who fleece the flock and pimp the word of God are fools. Besides, they aren't brothers.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Fools following fools (6/14/2008 4:27:50 AM)

quote:

Why do you assume those are genuine moves of the Holy Spirit?
I made no assumptions. I merely asked why physical manifestations are automatically discredited as being either flesh or a demon? Also, I don't appreciate having a legitimate question answered with a question intended to deflect the point. Need I remind you that people claimed Jesus and John the Baptist had demons.
quote:

Does the Spirit move where there is rank heresy and false prophets at work?
Does God move where there are weak and broken human beings prone to error? Absolutely. Until you can show actual "rank heresy", I will hold my tongue.
quote:

Where do you draw the line between what is sound doctrine and what are man made or demonic teachings?
Off-topic, irrelevant, and entirely unnecessary. I will not waste my breath answering this.

quote:

What is it that these physical manifestations are doing that would cause you to believe they are of God?
My clues... from personal experience, they have a tendency to happen in churches where people are also getting healed. Don't ask for documentation because if you won't believe my word, you wouldn't believe a doctor's notice either. Other clues, they also tend to happen when the worship time is deeply moving or the sermon was espeically good in that unquantifiable type way.
quote:

The Apostles had serious words to say about those who claimed to be following God, but indeed were leading others astray (false brethren).
Are you placing those in the above video in the same rank as people who were not "saved"? If so, own it. If not, don't make innuendo like you belive that.
quote:

How is it that what these peachers are doing giving glory to God? Is it possible that they are really bringing shame and scandal upon God's church?
(1) they "blame" God (if you will) for these manifestations. That sounds like giving Him credit to me. (2) It is highly possible they are bringing "shame" upon the church... about as much shame as David brought on himself for dancing around in his underwear in front of the ark of the covenant, as Saul brough on the kingship by lying on the ground naked and prophesying for a whole day, or as Jeremiah brought on Israel by laying on his side in the dust for 430 days... I think make my point in abundance. God isn't necessarily concerned with how we look to the public.
quote:

I know, a lot of questions. But, if one is going to say these preachers and their actions are led by the Holy Spirit, then one should examine their teachings, claims, and fruit, and be able to proove such.
I Never made any such claim in my response. I think the WoF is way off on doctrine. I say that every time I'm questioned about it. However, I don't think God's power is limited to people who have all their ducks on the same page.

quote:

Ill chance it.
........... have fun...........

Adam



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Fools following fools (6/14/2008 1:03:32 PM)

I have seen people do some real ridiculousness supposedly in the name of G-d, but this takes the cake.



MrFribbles -> RE: Fools following fools (6/14/2008 2:07:49 PM)

quote:

why are physical manifestations of the spirit so looked down upon?


I think one major reason is that there doesn't seem to be any Scriptural support for it. Nothing like what is seen in those videos is demonstrated in Scripture.
We also have to think of what kind of message it is sending to the unbelieving world. Quite frankly, I feel that people like that make Jesus look bad. If I weren't a Christian, and my first exposure to Christianity was that video, I would be incredibly turned off to hearing anybody else who claimed they were a Christian.
Also, on a personal level, I feel that many times churches who practice that sort of thing have an arrogance to them. I admit that I only have a very small sampling, but most churches that lean more in that direction seem to accuse churches like mine of not really worshiping God. So, heh, if I may revert back to 2nd grade for a moment, they started it. ; )



HisFish -> RE: Fools following fools (6/14/2008 7:36:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

I have seen people do some real ridiculousness supposedly in the name of G-d, but this takes the cake.

And it boggles the mind that there are defenders for this foolishness.



HisFish -> RE: Fools following fools (6/14/2008 7:44:08 PM)

quote:

My clues... from personal experience, they have a tendency to happen in churches where people are also getting healed. Don't ask for documentation because if you won't believe my word, you wouldn't believe a doctor's notice either. Other clues, they also tend to happen when the worship time is deeply moving or the sermon was espeically good in that unquantifiable type way.

When ever there is a challenge to document these things, some how the documentation is always elsewhere, or those asked get real defensive and deflect. How many times have these things been investigated by those outside the church as well as those within it and no shred of evidence of the healings or the dead being raised is ever produced.



lw9 -> RE: Fools following fools (6/14/2008 8:47:42 PM)

quote:

MrFribbles: I think one major reason is that there doesn't seem to be any Scriptural support for it. Nothing like what is seen in those videos is demonstrated in Scripture.


While there is absolutely no scriptural support for 'drunk in the spirit' and animal manifestations as a gift or a blessing, there is scriptural support of another kind for these things:

Isa 29:9 Be delayed and wait. Blind yourselves and be blind. They become drunk, but not with wine; They stagger, but not with strong drink. 10 For the Lord has poured over you a spirit of deep sleep, He has shut your eyes, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, the seers. 11 And the entire vision shall be to you like the words of a sealed book, which when they give it to the one who is literate, saying, "Please read this," he will say, " I cannot, for it is sealed."

Jer 51:37 And Babylon will become a heap of ruins, a haunt of jackals, An object of horror and hissing, without inhabitants. 38 They will roar together like young lions, They will growl like lions' clubs. 39 When they become heated up, I shall serve them their banquet and make them drunk, that they may become jubilant and may sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake up," declares the Lord. 40 "And I shall bring them down like lambs to the slaughter, like rams together with male goats."

They are judgments and condemnations, not gifts and blessings.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Fools following fools (6/15/2008 6:50:37 AM)

lw9, allow me to ask simply... why did Peter feel it necessary to mention that those in the upper room were not drunk "as you suppose"? It would seem to a logical, thinking type person such as yourself, that this would necessitate that those witnessing this event had reason to believe the twelve were drunk. That's all I really need to say about it. As I asked earlier... why are physical manifestations automatically discarded as being either fleshly or demonic?

The Bible is far from a comprehensive list of all things "good", and it is also far from a comprehensive list of all things "bad". So the question then becomes, is it automatically wrong if it isn't spelled out in the Bible? Absolutely not. However, it seems that is the main argument against physical manifestations of "the spirit".

Adam



BibleL7 -> RE: Fools following fools (6/15/2008 8:16:35 AM)

Adam though I do believe fully in healing and gifts of the Spirit I will point only to the fruits of the Spirit and Paul's letter to the Corinthians.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Notice that the last item listed is self-control this is a bit of contradiction compared to uncontrolled laughing and barking like a dog the ones I really have a problem with.

1Co 14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
1Co 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
1Co 14:3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.
1Co 14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
1Co 14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
1Co 14:6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching?
1Co 14:7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played?
1Co 14:8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle?
1Co 14:9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.
1Co 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance.
1Co 14:11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.
1Co 14:12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.
1Co 14:13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

Seems Paul had a real problem with things not edifying to the church I will not say anything on slain in spirit for I do see this as possibly of the HS yet not to the point that one preacher would just touch someone and the fall down and every person falls that he touches for if it is of the Spirit it is not in control of preacher just my opinion. Also would say if it is a part of preaching false doctrine then I would question it. I do know it happens with true doctrine and I also know healings do occur with true doctrine yet I did not see any truth of doctrine in the video. I know this also goes against many in this forum but OH WELL. I am one who believes God can still do any miracles He wishes and I also believe that the Bible tells us to test the spirits of prophets and teachers to see if they are true because there are both true and false prophets yes in the church today. And no earthless I will not name any for they do fully line up with Scripture and do not claim to be above Scripture they have simply rightly predicted events in the area that would effect the church they were in. And attention is the last thing they seek. Besides nobody outside of their local area would have heard of them anyway.



MrFribbles -> RE: Fools following fools (6/15/2008 1:54:35 PM)

quote:

why did Peter feel it necessary to mention that those in the upper room were not drunk "as you suppose"?


There are a couple possibilities. 1, they could have been hard-hearted, and were seeking an excuse to not believe their message. 2, they were trying to rationalize the miracle of hearing their own language spoken, and thought they were only drunken babblers.
There is nothing in that narrative, or any other narrative, to suggest the kind of action displayed in that video. Paul says that God is a God of order, not of chaos, and what those people were doing was chaos.
Also, I again bring up that unbelievers who witness such events would, in my opinion, be turned off to the Gospel.



lw9 -> RE: Fools following fools (6/15/2008 5:20:57 PM)

quote:

FurGodWurLivin: lw9, allow me to ask simply... why did Peter feel it necessary to mention that those in the upper room were not drunk "as you suppose"? It would seem to a logical, thinking type person such as yourself, that this would necessitate that those witnessing this event had reason to believe the twelve were drunk.


I've seen this one passage ripped out and abused time and time again to defend 'drunk in the spirit', and it's a completely fallacious conclusion. Here's why:

1. Acts 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?" 13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine."

14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning!

Fact: The apostles were in complete control of themselves. They were not falling down or stumbling around or acting drunk.

Fact: Everyone could hear them clearly in their own language. They were not slurring their speech or laughing uncontrollably. Peter is in full possession of his faculties and his vocabulary when he addresses the mockers.

Fact: The mockers were commenting specifically on the fact that everyone was understanding what they said in their own language.

Bottom line: The mockers could not explain it, so they made fun of it.

2. Drunkenness is a SIN. The Bible states it plainly enough:

Gal 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Cor 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; Neither the sexually immoral nor idolater nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

God commands sobriety:
1 Thess. 5:6,8; 1 Tim. 3:2,11; Titus 1:8; 2:2,4,6; 1 Pet. 1:13; 4:7; 5:8

Yet you want us to believe that God goes against His own word and brings a 'blessing' of drunkenness on His faithful??? No way.

3. Christians are called to self-control:

Ac 24:25 As Paul discoursed on righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid and said, "That's enough for now! You may leave. When I find it convenient, I will send for you."

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faitfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

2 Pet 1:5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence; and in your moral excellence, knowledge; 6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in our self-control, perseverance…6

God even specifies who will be without self-control:

2Ti 3:2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God...

If a manifestation is leading someone to behave in a sinful manner and is contradictory to God, then it's not the Holy Spirit at work, period. There are only two choices here: Believe the Bible, or believe people who contradict the Bible, but no one can have it both ways.

Let's replace 'drunk in the spirit' with something else from the Galatians & Corinthians list of sins and see how this sounds:

Debauchery in the Spirit
Envy in the Spirit
Orgy in the Spirit
Witchcraft in the Spirit
Prostitution in the Spirit
Adultery in the Spirit

Does that sit well with you? If not, then 'drunk in the Spirit' shouldn't sit well with you, either. What's next? Cocaine in the Spirit? Meth in the Spirit? Heroine in the Spirit? Sure... why not.

quote:

The Bible is far from a comprehensive list of all things "good", and it is also far from a comprehensive list of all things "bad". So the question then becomes, is it automatically wrong if it isn't spelled out in the Bible? Absolutely not. However, it seems that is the main argument against physical manifestations of "the spirit".


The Bible lists the gifts of the Holy Spirit quite clearly enough and there is no justification to go beyond that and start adding to that list. The Bible also describes the behaviors of those truly filled with the Holy Spirit, and drunken behavior is not part of the description. Considering that 'drunk in the spirit' is specifically listed as a judgment and condemnation but is found nowhere as a blessing or a gift, I will take the Bible's word over your word.



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