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Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/1/2008 10:32:47 PM
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Shabach4JC
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I have studied the Bible for close to 20 years now and I have yet to find any Scriptural support for the paradigm where Pastors are the head and have complete, dictatorial control over local congregations. The New Testement church displayed in the Bible and was goverend by the Original Apostles and then subsequently Elders. The Apostles of the Lamb (the 12 that Jesus chose + Matthias who took Judas' place) are recorded to have made decisions together and even they weren't infallable. (Paul rebuked Peter to the face for his hypocrasy) Paul told Timothy to ordain elders in the churches they had already planted. Why then do we in the Western church put the position of pastor on some high and mighty pedistal where their authority is many times unquestioned and absolute? 
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/1/2008 10:39:42 PM
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lightshineon
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I do not know, I have thought about that alot as of late. Maybe it is because, it is hard to work a normal job, and oversee a church and the day to day workings without a pastor, or overseer. Some, many pastors love the people, and help them, and their are the ones who do not need to be where they are.
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/1/2008 11:46:27 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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There is only one person who is the lead pastor of the Church and that is Christ.
I understand how the use of "pastor" has came to use but I don't like it.
I do believe that the elders of a church are it's "pastors" but the LEAD pastor must be Christ.
In our church the minister (which many refer to as pastor) is also a paid elder. His primary responsibility is overseeing the teaching of our congregation.
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/2/2008 1:01:21 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I have no clue why this is in many congregations, Shabach, but one thing I have learned here: some of the pastors on Crosswalk are top-notch and they do take their work as leaders very seriously.
I think, however, that the reason this patern continues to this day is because this is what is taught in the seminaries -- as far as I know, all of them. As a result, few are asking your question.
Is there any place in the Bible in which any congregation has a single leader? I can't think of any. All of the congregations I can think of have multiple leaders, who share the duties and carry the load together. One person, trying to do what G-d said several should be doing, must be horridly difficult.
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Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/2/2008 1:48:37 AM
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pstrdebi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Shabach4JC
I have studied the Bible for close to 20 years now and I have yet to find any Scriptural support for the paradigm where Pastors are the head and have complete, dictatorial control over local congregations. The New Testament church displayed in the Bible and was governed by the Original Apostles and then subsequently Elders. The Apostles of the Lamb (the 12 that Jesus chose + Matthias who took Judas' place) are recorded to have made decisions together and even they weren't infallible. (Paul rebuked Peter to the face for his hypocrisy) Paul told Timothy to ordain elders in the churches they had already planted. Why then do we in the Western church put the position of pastor on some high and mighty pedestal where their authority is many times unquestioned and absolute?
1 Timothy 3:1 refers to the office of "bishop"... which in the Greek is episkopos... and means one who oversee's, which is in a sense the superintendent, or officer in charge. (see Strongs 1984 and 1985)
First off... If someone is putting their "pastor" on a high and mighty pedistool... then I would suggest leaving that church, because they would be following man and not Christ.
Should their authority be questioned? If they are not following the Word, leading the flock astray, etc., then yes, they should be questioned and either dismissed... or you need to find another church! If they are leading by example; in other words, following the leading of Christ and doing all things in accordance to the Word of God, then there wouldn't be any reason to question his authority... unless there was a Judas amungst the congregation . There will always be someone questioning authority... whether in the church, in politics or elsewhere;... Those that don't like the way things are done, or most likely... those who don't like being brought under conviction  .
I'm just being real... And additionally, it is usually the congregation that appoints the pastor... they need to be doing their job in finding the right person to lead as Christ leads. They are not looking for an idol to worship... they are to look for a Shepherd to lead... just as Jesus talks about in Matthew.
Blessings...
Pastor Debi
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/2/2008 6:45:53 AM
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DaveW
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I would say it is an outgrowth of the American independant mindset. This is where culture affects (or perhaps afflicts) theology.
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/2/2008 8:02:18 AM
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Russski1
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While it is true the Apostles worked together as elders or overseers in the early church, but in the near future the model was that an elder/pastor would be selected based on his faithfulness and ability who would then be the elder of the church. We essentially follow the same model.
Now in America we have grown suspicious to this type of model due to the "image" of the pastor's office due to frequent failures of those who hold the offices. In our fellowship (name withheld) we have a loosley help structure of accountability based on our adherance to the basic doctrines that unite us. The pastor has the local role of God given authority which is as an undershepherd as Jesus is the head of the church.
The pastor operates in cooperative fellowship with his regional and statewide leadership.
I hope this helps....
Russ
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/2/2008 8:10:20 AM
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P31W
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I've lived in American my entire life and have never been a member of a Chruch where the pastor is the dictator in the church. I have only been members of churches that have congregational forms of church government.
I am Southern Baptist and almost all of the SB churches that I have ever been associated with have congregational forms of government.
< Message edited by P31W -- 6/2/2008 8:16:36 AM >
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/2/2008 9:13:31 AM
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bluestone
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The overwhelming majority of churches have either congregational or presbytery types of government. (boards and congregation)
If a pastor has total control, either he started the church independently and "owns" it, or it has cultic tendencies, so I would not really call it a church. It is not healthy, either for the pastor or for the laity.
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/2/2008 9:42:19 AM
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P31W
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In all the chruches I have been active in the pastor is a servant-leader.
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/2/2008 10:41:52 AM
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zoebob
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I agree that this is not the norm in American churches. Our church has a board of elders, called a session. The pastor is the one who does most of the preaching and is a paid full time position. Depending on the size of a church in our denomination (PCA) there maybe another paid pastor position. I would say that the pastor(s) are a front person and someone who is on call 24/7. They are the ones who are doing the day to day work of the church. However all decisions on how the church runs, etc are decided by the session and major changes are voted on at annual congregation meetings. In fact, the pastor is not even a member of the church. He is a member of the presbytery.
I would also disagree that seminaries teach that the pastor is a one man head of the church. Because it is not the model that our denomination follows it is not what our seminaries teach.
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/2/2008 11:49:00 AM
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crankius
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Like others who have posted, our church has a group of men who serve as a plurality of elders, and another group of men who serve as deacons. Our "pastor" serves as one among equals with the elders.
The idea of having only one man as King or Lord or President or Head or whatever you want to call it for the church is not Biblical.
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Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/2/2008 12:17:11 PM
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buckifn
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I don't know if there is one specific answer that can explain why....I do know I have seen a church like that and the reason given for why was because the "pastor" started the church, and pretty much it is his family that oversees everything.
My time spent there was short because I found that to be a very unwise set-up.
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/2/2008 1:23:03 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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The church I used to attend had one pastor, and he was Lord of all, period. No deacons. But they had other preachers that the pastor could run things by, if he chose, but he was The Word, the Judge, the final say -- unless it was a legal issue or something similar. Then, he had to answer only to a distant board, in another town, in another state, who only knew what the pastor said and not what the congregation wanted/needed.
Truly, as a congregation, we were nothing, we did not count, we had NO voice, and we were simply the ones who provided the money to support the pastor's wishes. It amazes me now.
There is another thread about asking for contributions to be returned to the giver. How I wish I could retrieve every cent I ever gave to that church. It horrifies me today how much I spent to help keep that church afloat.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/2/2008 3:53:50 PM
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phosadaud
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I've never attended a church that operates in this fashion either. Our pastor is accountable to the board (deacons & directors) and can be fired by the board. We are also under denominational accountability. The pastor may be the "visual" head, but he is by no means a dictator and never questioned.
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Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/2/2008 3:55:41 PM
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zoebob
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Here is an excellent podcast by my pastor. He recently had a 6 week sabbatical and he addresses some of these issues and what he has learned and what it will mean for our church. I think our church did a good job of group led before but it will be better now.
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L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/3/2008 6:41:25 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
I've lived in American my entire life and have never been a member of a Church where the pastor is the dictator in the church. I have only been members of churches that have congregational forms of church government.
I am Southern Baptist ... That is true of many different denominations including baptist. However, many pentecostal, charismatic and non-denominational congregations are pastor=dictator in structure. If they even have a board of deacons or elders, they are little more than a rubber stamp for the pastor.
There are several styles of church government in use in the US:
Episcopal (Catholic, EOC, Anglican) which is hierarchacal with arch bishops and bishops
Presbyterian which is led by the elders
Congregational - everyone is elected by congregants
Independant - pastor is ultimate leader of everything
Neo Apostolic a mix of elder leadership with a translocal hierarchy
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/3/2008 7:16:47 AM
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timf
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Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America?
You need someone to steer a ship. The question as to whether Christianity should be practiced as a "ship" is a more interesting one.
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/3/2008 10:37:54 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: timf
Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America?
You need someone to steer a ship. And that would be the helmsman (deep water) or the pilot (harbors) and usually NOT the captain.....
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/3/2008 2:42:17 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Have you seen the bumper sticker which says, "God is my co-pilot"? That is the way many churches are run. Indeed, the pastor is the pilot, and G-d is relegated to the co-pilot's seat -- or passenger's seat -- or hanging on by a trapeeze below -- or, too often, back on the tarmac.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/3/2008 4:55:30 PM
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4IMPersuaded
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Have you seen the bumper sticker which says, "God is my co-pilot"? That is the way many churches are run. Indeed, the pastor is the pilot, and G-d is relegated to the co-pilot's seat -- or passenger's seat -- or hanging on by a trapeeze below -- or, too often, back on the tarmac.
I have often thought of those bumper stickers that if that were true, perhaps you should switch seats! Even in churches, God is asked to bless what they are doing rather than asking what God would have them do, because then it would be blessed...
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/3/2008 10:50:53 PM
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bluestone
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The book "God is My Copilot" was written by World War Two Hero Robert L. Scott, who flew planes over the Pacific, and in the China area. His book and the subsequent movie, tell of His Faith and having know the Lord was beside him in those dangerous times in the air.
The bumper stickers are not the originals of the quote, and are an insult the Pilots of World War Two, and Robert L. Scott in particular.
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I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/4/2008 12:55:28 AM
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gmc4Jesus
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I grew up in a church that had a minister who was hired by the elders with the approval of the congregation. I have served for over 15 years in ministry of such congregations. I have also researched the New Testament to see what it says about church government and leadership.
Elder = Overseer = Shepherd. Overseer-Shepherd is a job description. Elder indicates one who is mature in their walk with God. This is usually considered to be an older person, but not necessarily always the case. A younger man who has grown up in the church and is knowledgable of the Bible may be qualified.
In I Timothy 3:1-7, we have the qualifications for elders and deacons (and deaconesses). I Timothy 5:17-20 indicates that some elders serve as preachers or teachers. This would be the paid minister (often called "pastor" which is one of the other names for an elder).
The preaching minister should be considered and treated like a paid elder.
Deacons means "minister" or "server". They are not elected, but are the ones who are doing the various jobs that make a church function. Teaching, cleaning, office help, visitation, etc. are just a few ways in which deacons and deaconesses serve.
Back to the pastor - preacher. It is necessary in any organization that one person assume the role of leader (of the leaders). When that person is an elder or someone else in the church, the church often forgets it's mission and gets caught up in protecting the status quo. I have watched many churches self-destruct because they were not willing to allow the pastor to lead them in new directions necessary to attract and reach today's generations.
There is a danger if the pastor is the only leader. He does need to work with the counsel and oversite of the elders. However, if the elders don't look to him as their leader, they will look at him as someone they have to control. This has destroyed many pastor friends of mine and caused me considerable grief in a couple of churches where I served.
It is dangerous for the pastor to have no accountability. Such can lead to cult leaders and do much harm to the Church of Christ and the local congregation. It is similarly dangerous for the pastor to not be allowed to be the leader. The elders often loose sight of the mission and end up protecting the status quo instead of focusing on reaching the lost and bringing them up in the ways of Christ.
Pray for your senior pastor and the other leaders, that they will keep the purpose of the church in focus and work towards that end.
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