My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (Full Version)

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Modes-T -> My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/4/2008 11:10:27 PM)

I'm 21. I grew up in church. But, I do believe I've fallen from the faith, because no one can answer ANY of my questions or explain my simple, real-worldly observations that defy that existance of a "god." I've asked my minister, I've asked my family, I've asked friends, now i'm asking the world wide web. Every answer I've recieved has just been a absurd excuse made on god's behalf. That it's not in our understanding, that it's his will (this one I like).

This may seem a bit blasphemous, and if you feel you will be offended, turn away now. I'm not doing this to hurt anyone, impose upon anyone. These are real questions I want answers to before I return to the Christian faith, it's been 5 moths since i've gone and I've asked these questions to 3 ministers now and countless others. Nothing but rationalizations that are explained far, FAR easier by removing god from the picture entirely. Bring this into perspective for me, and if your answer is "Pray".... please... don't.

First and foremost, the question my grandfather was outraged about when I asked at the tender age of six... Why is it we're right, and they're wrong? I mean really, what "proof" do we have, if any at all, that our religion is superior?

Second...

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Romans 8:28-30

So... god predestines our Sins, and then wants us to repent? There's no real answer to this, I don't think, other than "It's beyond our understanding" or "It's part of god's infinite wisdom."

Also, if we are predestined, and he does understand us, inside and out, Why did the world play out in a manner that Jesus ever became necessary at all?

How come god absolutely, positively, will NOT answer some prayers? The example is old, but, god has never, ever miraculously healed an amputee. He never will. But if he IS all powerful, he could, he just won't. He'll "miraculously" cure cancer, or illness, but never amputees. MORE importantly, several posts on this forum alone, say prayers are answered in the form of "Yes", "No", and "Wait." But you don't actually recieve your answer until it finally happens (if ever.) Now, if you prayed to a rock, or a shoe, or a dog, or your neighbor, or buddha, using this principle, all prayers will get answered at the same ratios. (I tried, I literally used my shoe to pray for a job after getting out of college, testing my own "Faith", if you will, I'm employed way better than I had prayed for).

I consider myself wise beyond my years, this wisdom tells me to be kind, to be generous, and above all, to be modest, and accept people for their own unique wisdom and skill, and learn all you can from everyone. God has access to infinite wisdom, and is infinitely caring.

So, why does he tell us in the commandments NOT to kill, ever, under any circumstance. And at the same time, tell us to KILL (in no uncertain terms, literally to KILL) homosexuals, all those who work on the sabbath day, girls who not virgins upon marriage, infidels in some religions, entire civilizations. The crusades, for instance. Is this not a direct contradiction????

Now this one has been beaten to death, I know, but it's VERY pertinent to me. Why does god answer your prayers for a new boyfriends, a better job, more money, happiness, and not answer the simple prayers of food for so many children and civilizations? Is it his will that these "lesser" non-believers suffer? To see a single person die of starvation doesn't mean god said "wait." God said "no." No food for you.

Also, what about all the parts that are just... wrong? The earth is NOT 6,000 years old, the only real world explanation I have heard is that "God planted false evidence to test our faith." What about jonah living in a fish's stomach? Everyone has said the bible is the word, not to be interpretted, to be taken as fact. This is plain stupid. A flood that covered mount everest? If the earth somehow had no clouds in the sky at all, and all the water was done, polar ice caps melted, we still wouldn't get that high.

Consider, also, that if we took all the stars in our galaxy alone, made them the size of a grain of salt, they would fill a teaspoon. If all the stars in the universe were collected the same way, they would fill a bowl more than 8 miles wide. This entire universe is only for us?

Now, for the bottom line. If this life is to find god. If this life is our chance to experience this world, why are we so limited. The only way to own an experience, to pass addiction, to take all you want until you want no more. Without harboring ill-intent for the rest of man, to live purely and honeslty, we're still damned to an ETERNITY of suffering, for a short 60 years of poor judgement? And I'm supposed to believe god loves us all, for passing the ultimate judgement, a punishment worse than death, for a failed chance here on earth? This is my gripe. I believe people, not god, have twisted the "fear" in. I blame the first leaders of the catholic church for destroying, raping, and defaming god.

I feel it's all turned into a fear ploy, I can't come to logically conclude any circumstances in which everything in the bible makes sense at one time. Parts work on their own, to explain how to live life, to explain how to see god, to explain the wisdom of god, to explain the workings of god, but side by side, they all crash in on themselves and fail to make at sense at all.

Please, shine some light on this. With real answers. If your answer, once again, is an excuse made on the behalf of god, save it, I'm tired of excuses. I don't want to gain the label I feel myself gravitating toward, I'm quite literally fearing for my soul, but in truth, less and less each day.

Anyone? Save me.



MrFribbles -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/5/2008 12:03:03 AM)

quote:

Why is it we're right, and they're wrong? I mean really, what "proof" do we have, if any at all, that our religion is superior?


You want proof? You won't find it, heh. There is no proof. Proof destroys faith. If we can be 100% sure of something, then we no longer need to have faith in it.
But, one compelling thing I've always thought put Christianity above other religions is the way that it is the only religion I know of where God sacrifices for us, and that is the reason for us worshiping God. We don't love and obey God because He is "up there," we love Him because He first loved us, unto the point of His death.

quote:

So... god predestines our Sins, and then wants us to repent? There's no real answer to this, I don't think, other than "It's beyond our understanding" or "It's part of god's infinite wisdom."
quote:


Also, if we are predestined, and he does understand us, inside and out, Why did the world play out in a manner that Jesus ever became necessary at all?


You'll get a lot of answers from different sides of this debate. Heh, Christians have been debating the predestination issue for the past 2000 years (at least!), so we certainly won't be solving it here on this website.
One explanation I've felt at least edges towards to truth is that God does give us some choice. He does not want robots worshiping Him. So, for there to be real freedom, there has to be the option for evil.
Also, while I don't think God ever forces us to sin, I would say there are times that He allows evil into our lives that, though we don't see it at the time, is ultimately for our good. For example, in 1 Kings 22, God directly allows an evil spirit to lead the kings of Israel and Judah into a bad situation, because their sins demanded it. Heh, well, that's my view on it. A lot of Christians try and explain away that passage some other way.

quote:

How come god absolutely, positively, will NOT answer some prayers? The example is old, but, god has never, ever miraculously healed an amputee. He never will. But if he IS all powerful, he could, he just won't. He'll "miraculously" cure cancer, or illness, but never amputees.


Actually, I have heard stories of amputees being healed. Multiple times. So, it's really not so much that God never heals amputees - it's how much you're willing to believe the stories.

quote:

(I tried, I literally used my shoe to pray for a job after getting out of college, testing my own "Faith", if you will, I'm employed way better than I had prayed for).


I would say that you were praying for the wrong things. Not wrong as in, morally wrong, of course. God has no problem with us praying for jobs. However, that's something that you can do on your own. Atheists get great jobs out of college, so obviously it's not something that requires divine intervention.
Two suggestions - 1, pray bigger, so big that only God could possibly answer it. And 2, pray according to His will. Pray for what He wants done in the world.

quote:

So, why does he tell us in the commandments NOT to kill, ever, under any circumstance.


No, He tells us in the 10 commandments not to murder. There's a difference. Murder is selfish. For example - if someone kills someone while mugging them, it's murder. If someone kills a mugger who was threatening their life, it's self-defense, and though certainly sad, it is not a sin.

quote:

And at the same time, tell us to KILL (in no uncertain terms, literally to KILL) homosexuals, all those who work on the sabbath day, girls who not virgins upon marriage, infidels in some religions, entire civilizations.


Well, first, you have to understand that those commands to kill sinners are no longer applicable. They were part of the Old Law, which was rendered powerless since Christ's death on the cross. So, Christians are not told to do these things. They are told to love unconditionally. Jesus Himself spent almost all His time hanging out with the people who likely would have been worthy of death under the Old Law. He hung out with prostitutes, traitors, adulteresses, greedy people... The people He avoided were the "religious" people of the day.

quote:

The crusades, for instance.


A sad invention of man, not a command of God.

quote:

Why does god answer your prayers for a new boyfriends, a better job, more money, happiness, and not answer the simple prayers of food for so many children and civilizations? Is it his will that these "lesser" non-believers suffer? To see a single person die of starvation doesn't mean god said "wait." God said "no." No food for you.


A lot of that is the fault of the modern Christian. Our prayers, by and large, are stupid and selfish. I once heard an amazing (well, to me, heh) story about a prayer meeting in a church. The speaker got up and asked, "How many of you have prayed for our troops in Iraq this week?" Obviously, every hand in the place shot up. Then he asked, "And how many of you have prayed for the people they're fighting with, who need Jesus? Or the civilians in those areas who are suffering from our conflict?" Not surprisingly, very few hands went up then. So, I would say part of it is that our prayers are not as healthy as they should be.
But also - the world is a dark place. We are a sinful race. Evil happens. It's tragic, but it's reality. Again, God does not want robots worshiping Him, and if He provided for all our needs universally, we would become robots.

quote:

Also, what about all the parts that are just... wrong? The earth is NOT 6,000 years old, the only real world explanation I have heard is that "God planted false evidence to test our faith."


Well, first of all, I see absolutely no problem with an old-earth view of things. The Bible never says 6,000 years. That's a date we've come up with. But, I see no problem with a Christian who believes that God guided evolution - as long as humanity is said to have been created special.
But also, there is a good deal of scientific evidence for the idea that the earth cannot be more than, say, 50,000 years old. Just as a brief example - why is the ocean salty? Because it rains, and the tiny salt traces from the ground run off into the streams, rivers, brooks, etc., that eventually lead to the sea, increasing the salt content (that's what happened in the Dead Sea - no outlet for the salt, so the salinity just kept going up) by tiny, tiny amounts every year. So, assuming that it has been raining for the past however-many-billion years, the ocean would probably have such a high salt content that we could likely walk upon it.

quote:

What about jonah living in a fish's stomach? Everyone has said the bible is the word, not to be interpretted, to be taken as fact. This is plain stupid. A flood that covered mount everest? If the earth somehow had no clouds in the sky at all, and all the water was done, polar ice caps melted, we still wouldn't get that high.


Jonah's easy - that's what we call a miracle. God caused the storm and made it stop as soon as Jonah was thrown off the ship - God guided the fish to him as he sank into the sea - why is it so much of a stretch that God could supernaturally preserve his life in an otherwise inhospitable environment?
With the flood, you have to understand that Mt. Everest was probably formed by the flood. The geography of the earth went through so many drastic changes from that event that we haven't seen anything like it since. So, it's certainly possible, considering all the massive amounts of water that are contained under the earth's surface, that the world, at the time, could have been entirely covered with water.

quote:

Consider, also, that if we took all the stars in our galaxy alone, made them the size of a grain of salt, they would fill a teaspoon. If all the stars in the universe were collected the same way, they would fill a bowl more than 8 miles wide. This entire universe is only for us?


Let me ask you a question - what do you think will be happening in heaven?

quote:

Now, for the bottom line. If this life is to find god. If this life is our chance to experience this world, why are we so limited. The only way to own an experience, to pass addiction, to take all you want until you want no more. Without harboring ill-intent for the rest of man, to live purely and honeslty, we're still damned to an ETERNITY of suffering, for a short 60 years of poor judgement? And I'm supposed to believe god loves us all, for passing the ultimate judgement, a punishment worse than death, for a failed chance here on earth?


Well, you have to understand that God is an eternal God. Any sin against Him is serious enough that Christ, God Himself, had to die for it. God's love is beyond our understanding - and so is His hate. And God hates sin above everything else. And He wants to forgive our sins, but some people aren't willing to accept it, because they want to do things their way.



Hope that wasn't too "excuse"-y for ya'. : )



PureLight -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/5/2008 12:14:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Modes-T

I'm 21. I grew up in church. But, I do believe I've fallen from the faith, because no one can answer ANY of my questions or explain my simple, real-worldly observations that defy that existance of a "god." I've asked my minister, I've asked my family, I've asked friends, now i'm asking the world wide web. Every answer I've recieved has just been a absurd excuse made on god's behalf. That it's not in our understanding, that it's his will (this one I like).

This may seem a bit blasphemous, and if you feel you will be offended, turn away now. I'm not doing this to hurt anyone, impose upon anyone. These are real questions I want answers to before I return to the Christian faith, it's been 5 moths since i've gone and I've asked these questions to 3 ministers now and countless others. Nothing but rationalizations that are explained far, FAR easier by removing god from the picture entirely. Bring this into perspective for me, and if your answer is "Pray".... please... don't.

First and foremost, the question my grandfather was outraged about when I asked at the tender age of six... Why is it we're right, and they're wrong? I mean really, what "proof" do we have, if any at all, that our religion is superior?

-- What are you looking for in terms of proof? Jesus said that "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." If you're going for proof of the Christian God, this is a different subject entirely.


Second...

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Romans 8:28-30

So... god predestines our Sins, and then wants us to repent? There's no real answer to this, I don't think, other than "It's beyond our understanding" or "It's part of god's infinite wisdom."

-- God gave us free will, the Fall happened and sin entered our world. God knows but gives us the choice. He presents himself in the form of Jesus for in whom we can choose to believe in or not. For that specific verse, I'd see it as God calling the original disciples of Christ to be first among soon to be many, although this is just my interpretation. Others might have a different thought on the matter.


Also, if we are predestined, and he does understand us, inside and out, Why did the world play out in a manner that Jesus ever became necessary at all?

-- Again, that verse applies to believers after Jesus came into the picture. He gave us free choice.

How come god absolutely, positively, will NOT answer some prayers? The example is old, but, god has never, ever miraculously healed an amputee. He never will. But if he IS all powerful, he could, he just won't. He'll "miraculously" cure cancer, or illness, but never amputees. MORE importantly, several posts on this forum alone, say prayers are answered in the form of "Yes", "No", and "Wait." But you don't actually recieve your answer until it finally happens (if ever.) Now, if you prayed to a rock, or a shoe, or a dog, or your neighbor, or buddha, using this principle, all prayers will get answered at the same ratios. (I tried, I literally used my shoe to pray for a job after getting out of college, testing my own "Faith", if you will, I'm employed way better than I had prayed for).

You prayed to a shoe? Really? Also, I've had prayers answered by things actually changing. Usually quite quickly, honestly. The amputee still has his life and if he's a believer, it could easily be to bring him to a new level of faith.

I consider myself wise beyond my years, this wisdom tells me to be kind, to be generous, and above all, to be modest, and accept people for their own unique wisdom and skill, and learn all you can from everyone. God has access to infinite wisdom, and is infinitely caring.

So, why does he tell us in the commandments NOT to kill, ever, under any circumstance. And at the same time, tell us to KILL (in no uncertain terms, literally to KILL) homosexuals, all those who work on the sabbath day, girls who not virgins upon marriage, infidels in some religions, entire civilizations. The crusades, for instance. Is this not a direct contradiction????

In my understanding, the commandment was to not 'murder' which would be a killing of innocents? Those that you mention have trespassed, as it were.

Now this one has been beaten to death, I know, but it's VERY pertinent to me. Why does god answer your prayers for a new boyfriends, a better job, more money, happiness, and not answer the simple prayers of food for so many children and civilizations? Is it his will that these "lesser" non-believers suffer? To see a single person die of starvation doesn't mean god said "wait." God said "no." No food for you.

I honestly don't have an answer for you here, but you're seeming to just question the existence of pain and suffering here. Right?

Also, what about all the parts that are just... wrong? The earth is NOT 6,000 years old, the only real world explanation I have heard is that "God planted false evidence to test our faith." What about jonah living in a fish's stomach? Everyone has said the bible is the word, not to be interpretted, to be taken as fact. This is plain stupid. A flood that covered mount everest? If the earth somehow had no clouds in the sky at all, and all the water was done, polar ice caps melted, we still wouldn't get that high.

--- Where does it say in the Bible that the earth is 6,000 years old? I'm actually interested.

Consider, also, that if we took all the stars in our galaxy alone, made them the size of a grain of salt, they would fill a teaspoon. If all the stars in the universe were collected the same way, they would fill a bowl more than 8 miles wide. This entire universe is only for us?

--- Again, it's just for us? I didn't think that the Bible stated that the UNIVERSE wasn't just for us. The Bible was given to us here on earth as our guide.

Now, for the bottom line. If this life is to find god. If this life is our chance to experience this world, why are we so limited. The only way to own an experience, to pass addiction, to take all you want until you want no more. Without harboring ill-intent for the rest of man, to live purely and honeslty, we're still damned to an ETERNITY of suffering, for a short 60 years of poor judgement? And I'm supposed to believe god loves us all, for passing the ultimate judgement, a punishment worse than death, for a failed chance here on earth? This is my gripe. I believe people, not god, have twisted the "fear" in. I blame the first leaders of the catholic church for destroying, raping, and defaming god.

Limited? Jesus said he came to so that we'd have life, and have it to the full. We have the chance to escape that judgement in Jesus so why worry about it?


I feel it's all turned into a fear ploy, I can't come to logically conclude any circumstances in which everything in the bible makes sense at one time. Parts work on their own, to explain how to live life, to explain how to see god, to explain the wisdom of god, to explain the workings of god, but side by side, they all crash in on themselves and fail to make at sense at all.

Please, shine some light on this. With real answers. If your answer, once again, is an excuse made on the behalf of god, save it, I'm tired of excuses. I don't want to gain the label I feel myself gravitating toward, I'm quite literally fearing for my soul, but in truth, less and less each day.

Anyone? Save me.



I answered what I thought I could in the quote. I imagine that others will be able to give better answers but at the same time, I'd like to try and help as well.



Miril -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/5/2008 1:15:59 AM)

quote:

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Romans 8:28-30


Lol Go back one verse and you will have the answer to your entire post:

Romans 8:27
27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.

Which makes a lot of sense to me internally, because the first question I asked myself after I read your post was...

"If he doesn't believe that God exists why does he write as if he does believe?"

The answer to my own question is that you DO believe, you are just buying time to keep sinning because in your mind you have not seen physical proof in front of you even though you know the truth; so you let your fear of God slip away little by little because you have to question everything.

This is not about you this is about God. He is in charge here - not you, and he has a question for YOU...

"Why are you choosing the world over God - Have you not known God since you were a child? Why did YOU turn on me?"

Answer that to him and ask him to show you proof HONESTLY, not with a "Oh yeah well, no one has concrete proof so I can keep doing what I want" tone.

I pray He shows you as deeply and clearly as He showed me.[:D]



deermousie -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/5/2008 2:09:08 AM)

I'm not going to be offended, Modes-T, and I doubt God is either by an honest question or ten. [:D] His truth is foundational - you can run a bulldozer over it and never hurt it. I'm not God (just ask my kid) but I'll answer these as best I can. And maybe others wiser than me will jump in. Meanwhile, grab a lemonade and we'll go over these together.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Modes-T
Every answer I've recieved has just been a absurd excuse made on god's behalf. That it's not in our understanding, that it's his will (this one I like).


OK, now I'm going to be a little hard with you, too, so meet me half way, OK? A person in sin looks at truth and it doesn't make sense (because it's spiritual, not intellectual. The intellectual will follow because God made us with brains that work, but you can't leave out the primary spiritual aspect), so I can't tell if you are asking honest questions or making excuses. Forgive me if this seems harsh, but I don't know you. We'll work on this together and see what we get.

quote:

This may seem a bit blasphemous, and if you feel you will be offended, turn away now. I'm not doing this to hurt anyone, impose upon anyone. These are real questions I want answers to


I love it! Let 'er rip!

quote:

it's been 5 moths since i've gone and I've asked these questions to 3 ministers now and countless others. Nothing but rationalizations that are explained far, FAR easier by removing god from the picture entirely.


Sounds like you could use some wise, biblically trained spiritually mature Christians. Unfortunately, all you have at this moment is me. We'll try.

Life is a spiritual conflict. Read the Book of Job and look at the conversation between God and Satan - it really happened, and Satan wanted to hurt Job to convince him that God either wasn't real or didn't care. Sound familar? And even Job's wife told him to "curse God and die." Pffft. [:'(] She was no help.

quote:

Bring this into perspective for me, and if your answer is "Pray".... please... don't.


Hey, praying is just talking to God. "Hey, God, I got a question, and it's really bugging me!" The answer is most likely in the Bible - God's love letter to us that tells us everything He thinks we should know. How's your knowledge of what's in the Bible? That could explain a lot if you haven't been getting into it every day for a few years. So I'm not telling you to pray, I'm telling you to read your Bible. If you know someone who's been digging in there for years and applying it to their lives honestly, they could be a great resource because they've already been through the doubts you're having and have gotten answers.

quote:

First and foremost, the question my grandfather was outraged about when I asked at the tender age of six... Why is it we're right, and they're wrong? I mean really, what "proof" do we have, if any at all, that our religion is superior?


I hear ya. When I was 7, I wondered if mankind was basically good or evil. Because I'd never heard anyone speak of this, I figured there was no answer, and I dropped the question for 40 years. Too bad neither of us had good help then, but hey, here we are today. I'm sorry your grandad lost his cool; you had a legitimate question that he should have answered (and been thrilled you were thinking) or found someone who could. Maybe he didn't know and covered his embarrassment by blowing you off. I'd have loved to be asked that by a 6 year old - you're smart! And deserve an answer.

The whole thing about right and wrong of denominations - 2000 years of church history resonates around what the Bible teaches and who wants to follow it and who is making it up something different as they go along. The various councils (like Nicea, in 432 I think) came along because of controversy about whether Jesus was really a man or not; they agreed He was God (I think I'm getting this straight. If not, you get the idea of what they dealt with). One of the councils was to deal with Gnosticism - the flesh was evil and the spirit was good, so Jesus couldn't have a real body. Right? Wrong! He rose physically from the dead with a real body, the Bible says. The people who followed the gnostics separated themselves from the teaching of the Bible and thus from the Church (not a building but all the people who've ever lived who believed in God and belonged to Him). So you see a church split (and they've been going on almost 2000 years) - those who cling to Bible teaching and those who don't. That's where cults come from, and eventually, various denominations - sometimes over major points and sometimes over piddly details that aren't foundational.

So look at a church that maintains the basics tenets of Christianity: Jesus is God, Jesus became a Man, He died for sin and rose from the dead to prove it was forgiven. The Holy Spirit is God, and God is a Three-Persons-in-One (we don't understand that because we aren't that way, but the Bible teaches us that's how God is). The Nicene Creed came about from the Council of Nicea to clear up what to believe. Look it up if you aren't familar with it; I hope to die someday with those words on my lips. It's a statement of faith.

"
quote:

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Romans 8:28-30

So... god predestines our Sins, and then wants us to repent? There's no real answer to this, I don't think, other than "It's beyond our understanding" or "It's part of god's infinite wisdom."


Uh - it doesn't say your sins were predestined. Take a breath, and take a sip of the lemonade. God wanted us to have free will because love that's forced isn't love, and God wants us to love Him. He loved us first and we can respond. But to have free will means we can refuse, and God knew Adam and Eve would blow it big time (because He knows everything), so Christ was crucified before the foundation of the world (is that mind-blowing or what?!) to save us from the sin we would do because we are sinners because of Adam. It's inherited. Bummer, huh.

The big question was, can God save a sinning mankind (mercy) without destroying His own moral perfection (justice)? Sin demands death asa payment. Satan thought he'd won. God pulled a fast one, perfectly moral, by becoming a man and dying in our place. Thus, God is still perfectly just AND He could save the lives of sinners, perfectly merciful. God 1, Satan 0. Forever.

This is heavy stuff, and I can understand that God can give a person saving faith that "God took care of things" without understanding how He did it. King David knew God would save him but didn't know how. So if a person can't answer your question, ask around. I'm glad you're pounding on the door! [:)] These are wonderful things to know, and it says even angels long to understand this. I can't blame them.

quote:

Also, if we are predestined, and he does understand us, inside and out, Why did the world play out in a manner that Jesus ever became necessary at all?


Because of the justice/mercy thing. Someone had to shed blood (die) to pay for the sin. God is vindicated and He gets to give us eternal life with Him. Did I answer you adequately?

quote:

How come god absolutely, positively, will NOT answer some prayers?


I think He always does. Sometimes He says no. Or wait.
There's a passage about Moses and the Jews, having left Egypt, are someplace in the desert, and they're supposed to be elsewhere else and they don't want to go. So they're praying, and God tells Moses, "Tell the people to stop praying and get moving." That wasn't the answer they were expecting. [:D]

quote:

The example is old, but, god has never, ever miraculously healed an amputee. He never will. But if he IS all powerful, he could, he just won't.


I've wondered about this, too. I don't know. Hey, for Someone who can create a universe out of nothing, a new leg wouldn't break a sweat.

quote:

He'll "miraculously" cure cancer, or illness, but never amputees. MORE importantly, several posts on this forum alone, say prayers are answered in the form of "Yes", "No", and "Wait." But you don't actually recieve your answer until it finally happens (if ever.) Now, if you prayed to a rock, or a shoe, or a dog, or your neighbor, or buddha, using this principle, all prayers will get answered at the same ratios. (I tried, I literally used my shoe to pray for a job after getting out of college, testing my own "Faith", if you will, I'm employed way better than I had prayed for).


One of the things God does is He teaches us things as we trust Him. I've noticed that when I pray about things with deadlines, He strings me along until I think it's too late to happen, and then sometimes it does happen, and even better than I thought. It stretched me; uncomfortably so. The faith and patience He caused was probably more important than the thing I was praying about.

Are you gripping God doesn't answer your prayers until He answers your prayers?

We also know that God blesses us, and He blesses the wicked. The rain falls on both. Maybe the wicked are praying to an idol, and hey, it rains. The idol must have done it! Um... no. It's God's universe, and He makes things happen. You don't even have to send Him a thank you note, but you could say it.

quote:

I consider myself wise beyond my years, this wisdom tells me to be kind, to be generous, and above all, to be modest, and accept people for their own unique wisdom and skill, and learn all you can from everyone. God has access to infinite wisdom, and is infinitely caring.

So, why does he tell us in the commandments NOT to kill, ever, under any circumstance. And at the same time, tell us to KILL (in no uncertain terms, literally to KILL) homosexuals, all those who work on the sabbath day, girls who not virgins upon marriage, infidels in some religions, entire civilizations. The crusades, for instance. Is this not a direct contradiction????


The confusion here is understandable - the "thou shalt not kill" uses a word for kill that means premeditated murder for your own selfish ends and for no good reason. It's only used twice in the Bible, and there are other words for kill used elsewhere. God doesn't condemn killing in self defense or during war, and the woman Jael was a hero for driving a tent peg throught an enemy's head (!). Our own American laws are based on the Old Testament, and that's why we have first and second degree murder and manslaughter. God said don't commit first degree murder. And in the OT, the religious leaders had the authority to execute with God's OK, and that was righteous, too. In the New Testament, God gives that to civil government, and the Church's only power is to excommunicate.

You can't include the Crusades with the Bible. It happened after the cannon (canon?) of the Scripture was closed.
There are things that are very destructive that God told us to deal with harshly, and some of them (I can't say all of them without 2 hours of digging) end with God's Word saying "so the evil doesn't spread." It was to protect the whole people.

quote:

Now this one has been beaten to death, I know, but it's VERY pertinent to me. Why does god answer your prayers for a new boyfriends, a better job, more money, happiness, and not answer the simple prayers of food for so many children and civilizations? Is it his will that these "lesser" non-believers suffer? To see a single person die of starvation doesn't mean god said "wait." God said "no." No food for you.


First of all, and you'll have to forgive the rant here: I don't think God gives boyfriends. Scripture talks about single people and married people and people going quickly from one state to the other (except Jacob, and his uncle was a cheat). Dating isn't in the Bible, and really courtship hardly gets a mention, either. But this wasn't your question.

I think boyfriends show up because people accept them and pursue these relationships out of their own selfishness, and may credit God for it. Notice it says in 1 Cor. 7:1,2 that it isn't good for a man to touch a woman, yet judging by the number of illegitimate children being born, even in Christian circles, there's a lot of touching going on. You can't blame that one on God. He made the plumbing and told us to live in honor and gives us the power to do it.
God could be giving better jobs and money as a blessing, as mentioned above.
But starving peoples? Do you not realize that there have probably been starving groups of people throughout history, and the ones we have now, some *are* getting help? Look at all the charitable organizations to help them. I myself spend Tuesdays working in a kitchen in a rescue mission feeding 750 homeless people a day.
And why does Africa go hungry when Americans are fat? There's another reason: America was based on God's Word and promises and lifestyle, and God's ways work. He'll give you prosperity for following His ways of hard work. He also gives cursing - read Deut. 28. A lot of the cursing has to do with failures of food. This is another good reason for missions - tell people about God and how the world works so they can get blessings, too.
Look at Hebrews 11 in the Bible - there are heros of the faith that are persecuted, live in holes in the ground and get sawn in half. Not a blessing. God does things funny sometimes, and we trust Him to work things out as He promised, even though we go to our deaths waiting. It does work out, just our death isn't the end. The inspired writers of the OT wanted to know what they were writing, but it was written for us. Things aren't always the way they seem, and the journey isn't over. Not here.

quote:

Also, what about all the parts that are just... wrong? The earth is NOT 6,000 years old


That's not in the Bible. God didn't say that, so don't ding Him for it.
But really, how do you know how old the earth is? No one was there. We have the geologists who date layers by the fossils, and the scientists who date the fossils by the layers. Really. The geologists have admitted for over 50 years that they're doing circular reasoning. There are scientists who say they believe the world is 5 billion years old because "anything else is too hard to believe." Wow, that's scientific! What happened to the Scientific Method based on observable facts? They're talking belief. The main problem with dating the earth's age is that science is based on repeatable phenomenon, and you can't repeat the origin of earth.

quote:


the only real world explanation I have heard is that "God planted false evidence to test our faith."


I've not seen any evidence in Scripture that God planted false evidence. He's the God of truth. The problem here is people not knowing their Bible, not of God being sneaky.

quote:

What about jonah living in a fish's stomach? Everyone has said the bible is the word, not to be interpretted, to be taken as fact. This is plain stupid.


Maybe not. It may have happened again in 1891 - the story is a guy fell off the whaler "Star of the East" and was found later in a killed whale's stomach, still alive. There's another story of a man swalled by a whale shark. Here's a nonchristian sceptic's report: http://www.asa3.org/aSA/PSCF/1991/PSCF12-91Davis.html It's too long for me to vet to see if the guy is reporting or propagandizing tonight.

quote:

Everyone has said the bible is the word, not to be interpretted, to be taken as fact. This is plain stupid. A flood that covered mount everest? If the earth somehow had no clouds in the sky at all, and all the water was done, polar ice caps melted, we still wouldn't get that high.


Almost every culture has a flood story; no matter how isolated the people are or what continent they are on, they think there was a huge flood. If you read about it in the Bible, it talks about the fountains of the deep opening and the clouds opening. The Canopy Theory makes the water depth a possibility.

quote:

Consider, also, that if we took all the stars in our galaxy alone, made them the size of a grain of salt, they would fill a teaspoon. If all the stars in the universe were collected the same way, they would fill a bowl more than 8 miles wide. This entire universe is only for us?


I question your numbers, because even the Hubble telescope keeps finding new limits of the universe, and we can only theorize how big it is. How do you know there isn't more beyond what we can see? And why can't God do with His creation whatever He wants? I think that's a deeper philosophical question than both of us together could do credit to, and how would be know if we were right or not?

quote:

Now, for the bottom line. If this life is to find god. If this life is our chance to experience this world, why are we so limited. The only way to own an experience, to pass addiction, to take all you want until you want no more. Without harboring ill-intent for the rest of man, to live purely and honeslty, we're still damned to an ETERNITY of suffering, for a short 60 years of poor judgement? And I'm supposed to believe god loves us all, for passing the ultimate judgement, a punishment worse than death, for a failed chance here on earth? This is my gripe. I believe people, not god, have twisted the "fear" in. I blame the first leaders of the catholic church for destroying, raping, and defaming god.

I feel it's all turned into a fear ploy, I can't come to logically conclude any circumstances in which everything in the bible makes sense at one time. Parts work on their own, to explain how to live life, to explain how to see god, to explain the wisdom of god, to explain the workings of god, but side by side, they all crash in on themselves and fail to make at sense at all.

Please, shine some light on this. With real answers. If your answer, once again, is an excuse made on the behalf of god, save it, I'm tired of excuses. I don't want to gain the label I feel myself gravitating toward, I'm quite literally fearing for my soul, but in truth, less and less each day.

Anyone? Save me.


I'll take your question a step further: why would God save any of us? Look at us - a more wretched hive of villany and scum you couldn't find anywhere (to borrow a great phrase - I hope I got it right). We're sinners, in love with death and hiding from the light. Created in perfection and blowing it the first chance we got, and all the following generations finding new ways to pervert it. All we deserve is death and hell. That's the bad news, and it's real.

The saving grace is that there *is* saving grace. How God can stand any of us is beyond me. That must be what makes Him God - the ability to love when there is no loveliness.

Oh.

That's the good news. Perfect mercy meets perfect justice. And it's all fueled by love. God is glorified, everybody knows it, and people get to live forever with Him. The main component of the Kingdom of God is joy. "Well done, good and faithful servant. Enter into the JOY of My kingdom."

The Bible says that the things that can be seen are temporary and the things that can't be seen last forever, so there's a reality that goes beyond empirical measurement. The difference has to be measured in people's changed lives and in how they die. Even in a court of law, a person's dying words are considered to be truth because the person won't last to benefit from a lie. So how many people died trusting God? Read the biographies, the Fox's Book of Martyrs, and stories about missionaries who rejoiced throught their tears while they planted the bodies of their dead children in the ground of the mission field. I think you'll find the answer you seek there, Modes-T. May God bless you and your hard questions, and I give you my blessing, too. Thanks for not being a mindless sheep.



deermousie -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/5/2008 2:26:46 AM)

quote:

Actually, I have heard stories of amputees being healed. Multiple times.


Got any documentation? I've never heard of this happening, and would be interested in proof.



mvic -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/5/2008 8:21:40 AM)

Dear Modes-T,

Hi and welcome to the Forum.

You've asked a lot of questions and others have attempted their answers. I hope they helped you. I know, their answers helped me to learn more.

You say you consider yourself wise beyond your years - and I believe you. Certainly your questions and reasoning point that way.

I too searched and questioned like you and guess what ... I didn't find all the answers. The reason I didn't find all the answers is because there aren't all the answers. There is no real proof that would satisfy you or me (or others even) about the existance of God, that Jesus is his Son, etc ... etc ...

At the end of the day I had to step out in blind faith and believe. I decided for myself that I had enough answers, even though I did not have them all. What I had was enough for me to decide to believe. It was a conscious decision to believe - in blind faith as I call it.

You see, faith is to believe when your common sense tells you not to.

Unfortunately as humans we are weighed down and dragged by common sense. We want to question. We want answers. It is natural for us to do so. And common sense stands in the way of faith.

I know I haven't answered any of your questions. In reality - I can't.

I can ask you to believe blindly (as I did) - but you'd probably scoff at that. I know I did when an old pastor (he was as old as the hills) asked me to believe in blind faith. I laughed at him.

Eventually, I came to the conclusion that I might be wrong in my own certainty - so I chose to believe.

I hope the above has helped you a little.



terryjohn -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/5/2008 10:09:49 AM)

I am glad faith is difficult least it was not worth fighting for. The truth is that far smarter men and women have bowed their knees to the God so many have trouble understanding and while many may mock them, no one is quick to mock the faith of little children and that of our grandmother.

The issue is, if you had all your answers would you believe? The answer to that is no and there we get a serious problem and one I have learnt to see is summed up in the fundamental statement of faith in Romans 1:8 that the righteous shall live by faith and faith alone. It is really impossible to please God without faith.

Now the lodgical conclusion to God being all that we would have Him be and do is absurd, see the movie bruce almighty, I mean could you imagine that God answered every prayer or a world that could escape the consequences of man's sin? No it would be foolishness and men would not learn a thing and truely be worthy of hell. Even a world in which there were no suffering, pain or death is a worse prospect than the one we have now. At least with the world we can at least be out raged at the evil that dominates our media reports and our lives.

Even the idea of the vastness of the universe may suggest that there may be others out there but the scariest thing would be for us to meet alliens and find they too worship this Jesus.

Now if you had to worship God in Christ would you? The thing is God does not take prisoners for then satan would have a just accusation against God. The problem with understanding God fully is that God is not nor could be logically a first year course at some university. You could perhaps see someone graduating such a course and still refusing to come to faith and being as a result of such twice the child of hell that he was before he started his studies. For to whom much is given much is required. You could say no man wants to see the face of God for such would really result in his death. I will stick to my faith thanks!

The one thing I love about God is that without Him there is no love, no righteousness, no evil, no truth, no honour, no dignity, no passion and no life etc. It has been suggested that once He who is currently resisting evil is taken away, all hell will brake lose. Current events confirm this. Men are not as smart as they claim nor good enough to make it work. Personally, the more I see the more I am convinced of God's acussation against men.

As it has been said somewhere, "Of all the armies that have ever marched, of all the navies that have ever set sail, of all the kings that have ever sat on a throne and of all the governments that have sat, none have impacted this world more than the one solitary life of Jesus Christ."

I am sure that may mean little to you but it certainly does to the broken, suffering, oppressed and dying. This Jesus has brought men back from the brink of death and despare and has taken drunks and addicts from gutters and streets. Chirst has given the unforgiveable hope for redemption and forgiveness to go on. This faith in Chirst gives men eyes to see the evil, pain and suffering and want to do something about it in Christs name for why pray for food for the poor when we have enough to feed them ourselves? I expect nothing from the hand of God for I would need nothing save His love.

There is a sword of faith that lays rusting at your feet and if you will, you can pick it up and use it to wage a war of faith, hope, life and love or you could leave it rust and join the world in its despair, hatred, hopelessness and death.

Now since the times of John the baptist the Kingdom of God has been forcefully advancing and forceful men have laid hold of it.



Lufia -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/5/2008 10:52:08 AM)

quote:

That's the good news. Perfect mercy meets perfect justice. And it's all fueled by love. God is glorified, everybody knows it, and people get to live forever with Him. The main component of the Kingdom of God is joy. "Well done, good and faithful servant. Enter into the JOY of My kingdom."


How wonderful it is to know that we will be forever in JOY with HIM



deermousie -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/5/2008 1:39:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BibleL7
The only reason you have such questions is to justify your wanting to sin and party all you want. So I know several have already given you answers I would suggest to others to not even waist their time. You will not believe the truth nor would you realize it if it was put before you.


Unless God has given you a special revelation regarding someone you've never met (and He doesn't do that as far as I know) this post was unnecessarily hurtful, negative, and doesn't build up anyone. God doesn't act like that, either. It's not good to smack someone in the face instead of extending gracious words. We see the outside; only God sees the heart.

Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. And we have no way to have the knowledge of what is going on inside the OP's head.

I was in the OPs place once, and by God's grace was lifted out of it. May God to the same for Modes-T. Cmon, BibleL7, give the person a hand of help, not hurt. We are given a blessing that we might be a blessing.



Modes-T -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/5/2008 9:19:21 PM)

Thank you, everyone, who took the time. Especially those who really -responded-. Like deermouse and the others. Those posts took time, possibly hours, and I thank you. Money comes and goes, time can only be spent once. Thank you.

I will admit I did not take the proper time to write my post, I would even say it was a bit hasty. I expected a poor reception from this community, (as with so many others). This is not the case, and thank you, all of you. This is going to be in depth. This is going to be long. I think i may become more active in this forum, maintaining my current perspective, to express my questions. To ask one person, a minisiter, a friend, a family member these questions, alone in a room, does not produce the quality answers and in depth, open minded approaches you get online in forums. So... here we go.

For those of you, like me, that rarely read names before they read a post, I started this thread =).

I'd like to address, first, Miril and ESPECIALLY bible7. Miril, the ire of my next few words are for bible7, you were quite polite and I respect your view.

I live each day with the knowledge that we have power as humans, the power to create and to destroy with our minds. This I know. I live a life that needs no justification. I don't feel the need to repent for my actions, because if my actions are fueled by greed, hate, envy, spite, or anger, I can be fairly sure I don't want to do them. Why? Because I love people (except "gangstas", they annoy the hell of out of me). Not because god will punish me, I'll punish myself. My worst sins are within, and I accept my greedy nature, my angry nature, as a part of my humanity. My worst sin is premarital sex (or just plain old "lust"), and I'm not going to defend it, and say "everyone does it." I lust, I do. "Sins of the flesh," if you will. I don't go get hookers, I don't have one night stands, but in a relationship I'm comfortable in, sex is good. It's wrong. Ok... But I give, I love, I help, and I live humble, very humble. You see me as atheist. You see me as evil. You see me as sin. But most of all, You see me living in opposition to you. I'm not ingorant, I'm not dumb, and I mildly regret my original posts scatters brained message, and I accept my own fault in misleading you as to my intentions. However, given your assumptions....

You are foolish, and see link: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/foolish

I choose my words carefully, so as not as to be more insulting that I need be. disregard definition #3. Responses like your "you just want to be greedy and sin" have taken me away from a lot of god's people. I know from my youth, partying as I once did, metal shows, lots of drinking, etc. that biggest gripe of those little wierdos in black, in no one will explain god to them, simply because they are so looked down upon. I promise, those little wierdos will greet you with open arms if you greet them as a friend. Please, consider more, before you respond. Keep in mind, there is no response that will cause me to look down my nose at you, as I'm sure you have at me. (Other than "Yo yo YYOOOO, whhassuuuuppp!"...)

Watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccCsSXuMlLY , if you don't believe it, google / you tube "Messages from Water." My thoughts are greatly affected by learning of this. I hate less. I greed less. I even let go of a lot of biggotry and my life improved just.... immensely. But this isn't what this thread is about.

I appologize for my hasty, unrevised approach in my original post, please let me elaborate.

My question is not if/where/when/how/ and/or that there is a god. I know immense scientific FACTS, not assumptions, not theoriess, FACTS (will link later) that do NOT defy god, but make the idea all the more fascinating, and creates a situation where the lack of a "God" is impossible and almost absurb, Something had to do all of this. If the electron had a slight shift, in greater, or negative charges, the sun would not burn. Slightly more hyrdrogen, slightly less oxygen, there would be no life. The fact the universe is infinitely large and we know it's expanding at an alarming rate. (See parallax measuring of the stars, google, proof is in that all neighboring galaxies are moving AWAY from us). The strong belief in the Godly community that science outright defies god is false. Quantam Physics and the newest science since the theory of relativity defy predestination, not god. I threw predestination out the window years and years ago, and I accept as a right of intellectual thought, that I am reserved into not wanting to believe predestination, therefore, I probably never will.

I have a strong belief, deep inside, that's burned since I was a kid, that makes me feel disenfranchised from the church. I just feel it's wrong. I presented these questions as if to ask god, these questions are more to the Christian faith than god. God's up there, my question is in the exhistance of this omnipotent being that's so uniquely involved in every single human's life, who loves us or damns us all in turn, standing in righteousness against satan and evil. Why bother to question Christians specifically? I was raised in a christian environment, so, this is where I direct most of my questions. Really, I've found I "identify" (note the word, carefully chosen) most with the more peaceful, less greed inducing manner of buddhism and hindhuism, but the elephant gods and reincarnation as a cow when you finally achieve the highest levels seem... well, a lot more absurd than any of my gripes with established western religions.

I'm my personal evolution, I've decided to say my peace with organized religion, smile upon those with faith, even envy them. It heals, it uplifts, and it's a wonderful thing. Other than the establishment (I'm not at all anti-establishment, either.) I've talked to god, prayed to god, and explained my soul. I have thousands of faiths here before me in America, and I am free to choose. I live my life as pure as I can, not living my a strict set of rules or commandments, but a moral standard that leads me toward good (see above). However, I am here addressing an innate fear I still possess, that feels wrong to have, or wrong not to obey. I'm not sure which. I don't like fear though, not at all. God knows no steps I take will be directly against him, I have convinced myself if he knows me inside and out, by the time I die, I will be worthy.

Now, I was told to "think of better questions" and "do some research." Let me dust off my folder's here and move my lemonade...

K. Well, some of these questions, like "How do we know we're right?" are hard to answer, if not impossible. So, let proof mean validation. Without lengthy quotes, deermouse says the 2000 years of church history and it's persistence, referencing the creed of nicene, is just resolution of this validity.

quote:

So look at a church that maintains the basics tenets of Christianity: Jesus is God, Jesus became a Man, He died for sin and rose from the dead to prove it was forgiven. The Holy Spirit is God, and God is a Three-Persons-in-One (we don't understand that because we aren't that way, but the Bible teaches us that's how God is). The Nicene Creed came about from the Council of Nicea to clear up what to believe. Look it up if you aren't familar with it; I hope to die someday with those words on my lips. It's a statement of faith.


This is a little ascew from proof. I do not want to sum it up to briefly, so as to mislead, but I don't want this to be to long (cuz it will be...) But, the First Council of Nicene was the first Ecumenical Council, invoked my Emperor Constantine (known catholic, either future or former bishop, not sure when along his way it was). To further clarify, and Ecumenical Council is, (borrowed from wikipedia) is "a conference of the bishops of the whole Church convened to discuss and settle matters of Church doctrine and practice."

To say this council is proof of Christianity validity I cannot agree with. A council of christians, lead by a christian, to agree upon what aspect of Christ are to be believed, and which are the be disregarded, is not proof. I could (and I'm sorry for how arrogant this may sound, it's merely an example, this is a very sincere apology, as I do not want to offend, just make a point) take a council of Muslims to "prove" shi'ite ideals over sunni ideals. Or a council of buddhist to discuss where, how, and when the buddha reached enlightenment, and what of his method was most important, or even a council of 4 or 5 years old to determine the color of Santa Claus's front door mat. All of these would present the same level of validation.

Now, "Proof." This question was not accurate enough. Moses parted the seas. Is there an other organizied society or doctrine that coincides with this, other than the bible?

The return of Christ. Is there any other doctrines or schools of thought that agree, witnessed, or can also, to some accuracy, account for this? Any other major event in the bible's history are subject to this consideration. The destruction of Sodom and Gaumora(sp?), the great flood? Basically, has there ever been non-believers rationalize down to agreement with the bible's story? Abraham lived over 2000 years. Isaac lived almost as long. Do any other documents, anywhere, ever, even with the most infinite stretches of imagination and interpretation, does ANYTHING say this is possible? Not that they in particular did it, it's really easy to say "that was before document history." But, according to the bible, and without ages and ages of digging, the overall life span of human degrades over time (as a result of sin), and these totally OUTRAGEOUS lifespans do, in fact, continue onto the first civilizations.

Moving on... On the question of predestination, god knowing our hearts, inside and out. This one I was also horribly vague on. If he understands the end, we are unnecessary. Infinite wisdom and knowledge ends us at a point where... why bother? Not just a point where/when/why did jesus have to die for us, simply... Why bother? Keep in mind, our exhistance as humans, to an ETERNAL being, is a flicker. So... if you whack your foot with a hammer, it's gunna hurt. Thought experiment complete. This is because you are limited in wisdom, but wise enough to know hitting yourself with hammers is unpleasent. With INFINITE wisdom, this human race lacks real end-game purpose, because it's simply... understood. Not by us, but by the things that creates our purpose. For me to admit to a belief in god, it only makes sense that he understands the human creation very well, but not infinitely.

I'm going to tie back to this in a moment, after presented the next piece of my little puzzle.

I asked, stupidly, no less, "Why won't god answer some prayers?" Giving amputees as an example. This needs to be rephrased.

"Why will god never, ever, under any circumstance, answer a prayer that is outside the realm of coincidence or human capability?" I.E., why will god never again, since moses and the times of bible actually HAPPENING, not the period in which is was written, in which undeniable acts of gods seem to be no more, perform a true miracle? A miracle that cannot be explained to coincidence, that cannot be done by man? To part a sea, to send an angel, to reveal himself despite the infinite pleas of his people? It seems as though the bible is supposed to be enough for us to suffice.

Tying in with predestination, we know god can perform true miracles. To make things happen outside the ream of coincidence or human ability, to defy our strict laws of physics, motion, and time, and to intervene? Knowing he could, history and our worldly observations tell us that he hasn't. The things that happen do not happen arbitrarily, but follow a strict set of rules. Why is god so unwilling to reveal himself?

Also, in response to amputees having limbs grow back with miraculous healing, I googled and googled, yahoo'd once, and I asked jeeves. Nothing. Could you provide some hard evidence of this? On a lighter note, some of the prostetic limbs now-a-days are fascinating.

Now, to address the "thou shalt not kill" contradiction. "Thou shalt not kill unless the person we deem holy enough to speak directly to god (pope) tells us it's "ok" to kill these people because they're sinners." This, once again, seems like a facade. So, a bunch of holy people go sit alone and meditate, and walk out with gods permission for Genocide? And the bible tells me to trust these people? Do what?

Yes, the crusades were not part of the bible, that was a bit of misinformation and a little spin coming from me. The Crusades are the work of those people in the paragraph previous. The ones who said god said it was ok. Just like every other "holy war." God is a mighty scary commander and chief and, in my eyes, makes great leverage.

Now, onto things like the great flood and the age of the earth and the falsities of the word, written before anyone could fathom the tools of the future. I was asked where I got a 6,000 year old earth. I got it from my asking of questions. I've never seen it the in the bible, nor has anyone else (it's not there). But, many christian scholars agree with this logic, as this... http://www.independencebaptist.org/6,000%20Year%20Old%20Earth/6,000_year_old_earth.htm ... is the standing argument for it.

Now, for the counter argument. Everything we measure, or observe, outside of the bible, totally disagrees with it. Our observations put the earth at about 4.5 million years ago.

Half Lives. Long story is here http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2000-08/965364844.Es.r.html

Basically, when a radioactive material is formed, it starts to degrade due to it's inherent instability. It degrades in half lives. The more radioactive it is, the faster it degrades. Say, for example, we take an element with a half life of 10 years. It starts at 100%. 10 years passes, it's at 50%. 20 years pass, it's at 25%. 30 years pass, it's at 12.5%, and so forth. Looking at what we have here on earth, naturally occurring elements, measure them against newly created elements, coincides with the "Old Earth" theory. This, I feel, is most substantial and repeatable.

There are many other indicators, the ice in greenland, coral growth, etc. http://www.religioustolerance.org/oldearth.htm has many, many more details, with the common counter-arguments.

Also, one of the responders here stated, in response to my "All the water in the world couldn't cover mt. everest" said that the mountains could have been formed by the flood. This is not true. Water disolves earth. The ocean floor changes constantly with the tide, but "underwater mountains" are quite solid, as they are formed by the earth's plates pushing against each other with such force, that the only direction left to go is up. No amount of water, or current, could stack a mountain with such a sharp, defined peak, 8,500 meters in the sky. That's just a no. Also, the idea of this ark, would of absolved all civilization (that was the idea, I think), and we would have SOME proof of this occurance, and life would have started, with ALL species of life, stranded on a single continent, without means (other than flying creatures) of reproducing on a different continent. Somewhere, over 40 days and 40 nights, a larger marine species would have died inexplicably inland, as the tides would have changed DRAMATICALLY, fish would have had NO sense of direction, and somewhere, one would have died leaving a whale or octopus corpse in some wierd Edited TOS 5 location we couldn't explain. We haven't found any of this... Why?

Deermous, in response to my argument of "God will never answer some prayers" and the he answer all prayers in "Yes, no, and wait." My gripe is with the infinite circle if "easy explanations" it creates. Any scenario can be answered in this manner, and you would NEVER know the difference if the answer is no. So, when there is no answer, and no coincidence occurs, you can assume "no" or "keep waiting." You are always satisfied in this manner. These are present on all forms of religion and I beg the question, with INFINITE power (that's a BIG word), why no? Why suffer? with infinite power, there's simply no excuse for it. EDITED TOS 6

There is no "answer" here in that the circle is infinite, in the "Yes, no, wait" logic, it always works because there's always a rational explanation. My real question is why would that ever be necessary, in every religion known to man, (other than those that preach self-awareness) unless the original writers knew the fallacy and needed to explain a manner in which god is ALWAYS there for you? This is what leads me to believe god is not so individually involved with us, and more guides humanity as a whole. This school of though leaves room for suffering, starvation, and other attrocities, and there is no need to "blame god." (as I've found myself doing.) It does, however, remove that sense of comfort that god cares about you in your own, special form.

Now, onto a school of thought where my ideals meet with God, and unify. This, I want to know, is it blasphemy? I do not (anymore) fear god. I do not think god ever wanted us to fear him. You can affect someone who loves you equally and with the same methods as someone who fears you, UNLESS you want them to serve a cause they are in direct disagreement with. For instance, if someone loves you with all their heart, and you ask them to run a worldly brother, a fellow human, through with a sword. He may. His own personal convictions and reservation will play much stronger in this decision than if it was based on fear, for their love for you in their own, created by them, and is free for them to hold it's own value and is free, totally, to question. Lets say they fear you, by pain of death and suffering, be it you have a gun to their head, or whatever, and you ask of them, again, to run that same brother through with a sword. There's no room for personal values to apply, there is "action or punishment." This defines christianity, the "action or punishment" view. You can simply "be good" or "be noble." there must be action, you must act for god, to believe god, to accept jesus. Mother Teresa is theoretically burning in hell right, right next to Adolf Hitler. If you do not take this action, there will be punishment, and for that, we are taught fear. I believe this is wrong, fundamentally, for the human race, and this was NEVER god's plan.

I do not fear god. I've plead my case, I've talked to god, what he has shown me has lead me away from established religion is general, not just Christianity.

quote:

I'll take your question a step further: why would God save any of us? Look at us - a more wretched hive of villany and scum you couldn't find anywhere (to borrow a great phrase - I hope I got it right). We're sinners, in love with death and hiding from the light. Created in perfection and blowing it the first chance we got, and all the following generations finding new ways to pervert it. All we deserve is death and hell. That's the bad news, and it's real.


This is not real. Where there is good, there is evil. I look upon death and despair and I feel pain, and I know I'm not the only one. There are those that embrace evil for personal gain, there are those that fight evil for nothing, not even glory. We are, in amazing truth, a miraculous balance. My mother, god bless her, has worked her hands to the bone, for strangers and the unworthy. To be just and good, and for no other reason, and for that, I shower her with appreciation. She is not the only one. I do not believe we are inherently evil, and the idea of "original sin" of which we are born with, is also common in ALL religions. "To be ignorant and holy is not enough, you must repent for sin you are inherent with." This brings it's relevance to everyone, makes it inescapable.

Now, consider all these at once. We all sin. We all must find god. We all must give to god, be it spiritually or financially (god always needs money, or so many of his "followers" exploit), None of are innocent, We all sin, We MUST follow his command, BUT he only tells the highest members of the church to then tell the followers. Does this not seem inherently corrupt? When did we, the people, become some distant from direct, divine intervention and inspiration? Why do we not have the direct contact? Look in this forum at how many people wonder if they've heard from god, or just heard something from within themselves. The higher powers (pope) are divine enough to say, with 100% truth (supposedly), and that is not their divination, this is the god's law.

Now I know, the time of god saying "kill the islams" is done (though, apparently, he told Bush to do it). Simply because the church lacks real strength to lead rebellion in today's day and age, but in more recent history, the pope has to "converse" with god about clergymen touching kids, gay marriage, action in the middle east, etc. But, it was only him, no one else is allowed this "access." Why?

Deermouse said that we could never hope to understand god's love or god's hate. With infinite wisdom and -forgiveness-, this implies he is quite above "hate." Hate is an emotion for the uneducated and ignorant. Infinite wisdom and forgiveness allows understanding of sin to come and inherent forgiveness. Why is it god finds punishment necessary, when it's said we reach heaven, we gain wisdom beyond our human form. I would assume this wisdom is quite enough to absolve and previous urge to do a foolish thing like greed, lust, pride, gluttony, sloth, wrath, or sloth? Why is it he does not love us enough, in this "infinite" love, to understand we may fail in this life, and sin may overcome us, but the gift of his purification would set us free? If he is wise enough to understand we may succumb, why is he not wise enough to forgive, inherently, infinitely, without cause? The punishment for this failure, eternity of suffering, by the way.

Now... all this being said...

... Will god forgive me in the end? I'm afraid I've given up in a lot of ways, of finding this blissful, blind faith, due to my god-given pre-disposal toward asking "Why."

Edit - Not important, it's just bugging me. I know octopus's don't have bones, and therefore, would not be in the fossil record from any such event. Scratch those, but whales, sharks, and other things. I just saw this when I was re-reading.



ta_mosquito -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/5/2008 9:22:09 PM)

I'm pretty much on board with what Mr. Fribbles and Deermousie said. I did want to add something, though.

quote:

Why does god answer your prayers for a new boyfriends, a better job, more money, happiness, and not answer the simple prayers of food for so many children and civilizations? Is it his will that these "lesser" non-believers suffer? To see a single person die of starvation doesn't mean god said "wait." God said "no." No food for you.


Part of the problem here is HUMANS. Like Deermousie said, God does supply food to the starving through people's efforts. But a lot of the efforts are thwarted by the governments or tribe leaders.

A very recent example of this would be Burma/Myanmar. People, organizations and governments flocked to help within hours of the disaster, with food, water purification systems, etc. but the Burmese government didn't allow them in to help! That happens in Africa, too - tons of aid is shipped in, but the governments or tribal leaders confiscate it and either keep it for themselves or sell it to the highest bidder. People can be evil.

Edited to add: I see that you posted right before me. I haven't read it yet. Going to read it now... [sm=car.gif]



ta_mosquito -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/5/2008 9:36:16 PM)

Responding as I read, so I may edit this post in a few minutes.

One quick correction:

quote:

Abraham lived over 2000 years. Isaac lived almost as long. Do any other documents, anywhere, ever, even with the most infinite stretches of imagination and interpretation, does ANYTHING say this is possible?


This is false. They didn't live that long. Abraham lived to 175 (Genesis 25:7); Isaac was 180 (Genesis 35:28).

Pre-flood, the longest life was 969 years.

ETA: you've said a lot and asked a lot of questions. I don't have time to get into them now. But one last thing: you blame (bad word choice, bear with me) a lot on the Pope. Seeing as this is a Protestant site, you won't find many who believe that the Pope is the authority in Christian thought. We don't believe that God only talks to the Pope or that what the Pope says, goes. [;)]



Modes-T -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/5/2008 10:04:13 PM)

I did not take proper consideration to my audience. I tried to express, with emphasis a lot on the past, on it's upbringing, more so than the many present day variations. This is very relevant to the answer. I am in conflict with where the people give this "right" to a person, and then somehow, god listens. How is protestants, specifically, read the same words and come to a different conclusions.

I know a lot of it is in interpretation. How, and why (as is my nature), do these interpretations differ? The book itself it the same (right? I have a baptist background). Old King James version. I never took thought they may differ, still don't think they do.

How is it they have done this, and people still believe it to this day, and why is it protestants differ? I was afraid to question authority in this manner amongst friends and ministers in person, I think it's easier to ask here. I feel guilty because I really just don't understand why people by into such a notion that someone else is somehow more holy or more divine than the wonderful person they already are in themselves, if that makes sense.

As for the age thing, I'm not referencing it from the bible. I'm poor at retaining that kind of info. however, I have read several things speaking of ages close to 2000, or, I accept I may be just wrong. I'll have to read up. Either way, the question stands. 986 years old is a bit ridiculous by any historical standard I know of.



Miril -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/5/2008 11:50:36 PM)

quote:

Why is god so unwilling to reveal himself?


God has revealed himself to me many times, the first big one was when I was at my ropes end and was yelling and screaming at him out back when I was doing laundry, because I couldn't take it anymore. I couldn't take what the selfish, evil, jealous, envious people in my life were putting me through for no reason.

So I yelled out at him in tears and desperation because I just didn't want to feel anymore, and he lit the sky in an enormous light in the shape of a cross. I have never cried so much like a baby in my life. It was amazing.

The Sunday after that I went to church and there was a Pastor visiting that looked me in the eye, smiled actually kind of chuckled and said "ohhh God has something big planned for you" and threw me to the ground.

I am exhausted daily because the holy spirit has me working double time, I am not complaining - on the contrary I have never felt anything so beautiful in my life. All I can do is smile and cry. lol

You don't know life until you feel the Holy Spirit upon you covering you from head to toe in fire and then you begin to weep and all you could do is thank the Lord and smile. At one time I think I was hugging myself, because the warmth is so amazing and pure.

You may laugh, and that is OK because I am still laughing in amazement myself lol... But I saw someone drop off witchcraft across from my house, I instantly told God that if it was meant for evil to make it rain and wash it away. He did, and I knew it was and that he would cleanse it.

You speak of fear, I have never had so little fear of men (none actually) and so much fear of God in my LIFE. And I have had an interesting life let me tell you.

I hope that one day God can give you what he has given me. If you only knew how it feels to have this power that is guiding you to get in your car and drive then give you directions where to go, to show you where your enemies are. That is unbelievable, sometimes I still don't believe it myself.

I was exactly like you, it will take the same amount of emptiness within for you to REALLY feel, know and believe in God through Jesus Christ this way. I don;t mean this in a bad way, but I see so much of me in you - you are a sceptic like me, you need to see.

The only difference I can see is that I ALWAYS had a personal relationship with God. I would always talk to God very casually like I am writing you right now. I have so much to tell and he wants me to tell it.

A couple of nights ago I laid down to go to sleep, did my usual routine of reading the Bible before going to sleep, and the first thing he told me was "No one believes anymore, no one believes in me anymore" actually he likes saying "these people" or "those people". Now that I think about it that was the same night I first posted to you. I felt so sad after that, like I could feel his sadness.

I feel God so close to me, I just wish you could open yourself enough to feel it too.

The guidance he gave me when I asked it for you was this:

2 Corinthians 12

6Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.

7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

I don't like sharing much on here about me because I am writing a book, but when God commands through the Holy Spirit I follow. They are my facts and they are true to the core. I hope it helps.

Of course he will forgive you, when someone asks why they are hurt.



deermousie -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/6/2008 12:05:05 AM)

Good to hear from you again, Modes-T. [:)]

You have spent a lot of time thinking things through (years, obviously) and deserve answers. I hope I can give you some satisfaction, although I was up until 3 am this morning and will fall over dead (well, almost [:D]) if I try to do it again tonight. So let me dig in tomorrow and maybe I can contribute.

Your questions have been a good workout, and it's good for some of us to get the lead out. The person behind the questions is worthy of the time and effort. If you were here, I'd hand you a drink, lean back in my chair, and we'd enjoy a stimulating conversation of many hours.



HisFish -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/6/2008 12:08:49 AM)

quote:

These are real questions I want answers to before I return to the Christian faith,

Im not trying to be mean, but there is no faith for you to return to, you didnt come from faith and your post makes that clear. If every question of your post were answered it would not bring you any closer to God. Salvation is God's work in the heart, not the mind
quote:

Ezekiel 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:25-27 (

Cry out to the Lord He can save you, nobody here can give you to Him.



Miril -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/6/2008 12:15:42 AM)

quote:

Salvation is God's work in the heart, not the mind


MT, once you realize this and put your faith into play, everything will follow and flow through your heart.

It IS about the heart.

Proverbs 4:23
23 Keep your heart with all diligence,
For out of it spring the issues of life.



MarchButterfly -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/6/2008 12:38:27 AM)

I have so many of the same questions! I could go on for hours... but I will not. :-) I am in my twenties and I also grew up in the church - my father was a preacher. I have been asking questions my entire life without any "real" answers. I struggle with so many of these things. I no longer attend church because I am appalled at some of the things that I have witnessed... some of the things in the bible as well.
Unfortunately, I do not think that you will find the answers that you are looking for here, nor will you find them in the bible. Organized religion has a way of contradicting itself, as does the bible.
I wish that I had all the answers, but I do not. I came here today looking for some insight and was put off by some of the things that I read. The only advise that I can give you is to look inside yourself. Use your mind, which seems to work very well, and search for your own truths.
There is one quote from the bible that I truly believe and it always makes me feel better. If everyone applied it to all things, the world would be a better place. "God" had one true message, and that was to love him and to love others.

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always preserves."
-- 1 Corinthians 13:4-7

Good luck in your quest for knowledge and truth!



Kath -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/6/2008 11:13:44 AM)

To the new members: Welcome to Forums!

Please keep our Terms of Service and Range of Doctrine in mind as one posts in our Forums.

It's ok to question what one reads in the Bible but the violation comes in when one sustains the argument that the Bible is contradictory and cannot be trusted.

ROD 1 says
Unacceptable:
Forceful and sustained argument that, for example, the Bible does teach certain things to be true but that it is wrong when it does so, that the Bible is riddled with contradictions and is historically unreliable, or that the Bible is a purely human document.



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MarchButterfly -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/6/2008 5:13:19 PM)

Extremely disheartening. Please accept my sincere apology if I offended anyone - that was not my intention.



Modes-T -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/6/2008 5:42:47 PM)

I'd like to respond, in turn, to each of these posts. And, first, to thank all of you.

HisFish - Insightful. There's a lot in past where I cannot, honestly, say I had complete faith, but I was afraid if I took an air of lacking faith, I would turn a lot away, because I do want faith. I'm torn between wanting to believe, but I can't "take the first step in faith," because my brain tells me that this doesn't add up completely.

I accept all beliefs in god, all their variations, while not standing agreement with them, and I do not want to turn ANYONE from god, whoever they may be.

To anyone else who may respond, please, if your words may seem harsh, POST IT! I take well to constructive criticism, but, as I responded poorly to Bible7, I do not like to many assumptions made (especially when they're wrong).

MarchButterfly, that's a magnificent bible quote. I like it. I've read it before, but I didn't understand love as well as I do now when I was younger, and that is a wonderful definition and I intend to quote in the future. However, I do want to add, in an unfortunate way, God does keep a record of wrongs. I'm going to have to ask about this later.

Also, marchbutterfly, I harbor no intentions to damage your faith. Answers from within always come with personal assumptions. I am here because I feel my assumptions may be inaccurate, and I want more input. I love being wrong, because that how you final arrive at being right.

TO THE ADMINS - I'm sorry =(. I'm not looking for some argument to turn around and say "Hah hah! I told you were wrong!" which, I think, is the driving motive behind a lot of these questions when they are asked by other people. However, I do have some default tendency toward sustaining these questions, I do not, however, plan to know something or discover something, or somehow "out-think" 2008 years, 6 months, and some odd days of people asking the EXACT same thing. I know the answers I seek are out there, I know people have asked this before.

If, however, you decide my posts need to be deleted, or moved, please let me know, and I will not be offended. Your rules were set in place before my post, if I am in violation, I understand. However, please allow my scepticism, I intend to start several more threads, this one, however, will definately stand in highest contradiction to the RoD. So, if this passes, you'll be glad to have me here.



MarchButterfly -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/6/2008 6:34:05 PM)

I'm glad you enjoyed the quote. You absolutely did not damage my faith in any way. I don't know why you would think that. My faith is my own to deal with. I believe honest questions are always good. It helps people grow. The only thing that has disappointed me here is that it appears certain opinions are not allowed - which makes it difficult to have an open and honest conversation. Please keep asking questions and looking for your answers.



Kath -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/6/2008 11:51:11 PM)

quote:

I'm not looking for some argument to turn around and say "Hah hah! I told you were wrong!" which, I think, is the driving motive behind a lot of these questions when they are asked by other people.


TOS is about sustained argument, asking questions is fine.



deermousie -> RE: My queries outweigh my Faith, help? (6/7/2008 12:02:06 AM)

Just a quick note and an apology, Modes-T - I was hoping to find several hours today to respond decently to you (as best I can) and it just didn't happen. Hopefully tomorrow.



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