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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/9/2008 8:06:01 AM
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mvic
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Once again SoninMe1 got it right.
St Francis of Assissi said to his followers: Preach the Gospel at all times and, if necessary, use words.
You don't have to keep talking incessantly about Jesus to get non-believers to turn to God. It will simply turn them off.
Your actions should speak louder than words.
I feel the 2 or 3 people I mentioned in the Opening Post are doing Christianity a dis-service by their constant chatter.
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/9/2008 8:15:48 AM
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mvic
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Good point DaveW.
Now I'm not sure whether the 2 or 3 people mentioned before are "enthused about ... the Lord" or just using a "crutch".
They seem genuine enough. It's just their constant interpretation of God having an input in every thing in life, (even if it's a mere coincidence), leads others, non-believers especially, to ridicule them and their beliefs.
I gave the example of a person phoning at the precise time they were talking about him. Did God really made him phone then or was it a coincidence? I don't know.
But I do know that their making a point about it led others to smile politely and treat them as "Jesus freaks".
Now then, is God/Jesus happy with this behavior? Or is He concerned that they used His name in vain - however unwittingly and however well-intentioned.
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/9/2008 8:37:24 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
People do not like being convicted all the time. This is against scripture. People in your face with Jesus all the time are in effect judging the world. That is not our job.
I guess the apostles were very, very, wrong in their approach then. I suppose they are teaching us to do it wrong as well?
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/9/2008 8:57:54 PM
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SonInMe1
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What did Jesus say to His accusers? Did He defned Himself or did He just let His life interpret who He was?
When ASKED by the ruling leaders, John and Peter wtinessed. They witnessed the truth. They did not go up to the leaders and state their position forcefully. They were arrested and brought before them for questioning. They could have gone up to them at any time, but no, they waited...for the correct time.
I know the dsciples were bold but I do not believe they were either self serving or rude.
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James 4:4
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/9/2008 10:27:54 PM
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HisFish
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quote:
What did Jesus say to His accusers? Did He defned Himself or did He just let His life interpret who He was?
What then are we to think about the attitude of Jesus toward the Pharisees?
Matt 23:31-33 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?"
Matt 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in
Matt 23:25-26 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." John 8:44
He was silent in their custody as was prophesied, like a lamb for sacrifice. But he was quite in their face, rude you might say, whenever He and the paharisees collided before His arrest.
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/10/2008 1:42:12 AM
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Tomb
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Festus thought the apostle Paul had lost his mind because of his devotion to the Lord (Acts 26:22-25).
22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
24 And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.
25 But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness.
When a person realizes that each person we pass each day will either go to heaven or hell, it energizes the good and honest heart to learn about the way of the N.T.Will of Christ and teach others (2Tim.2:2).
http://missionprinting.us/mp_newindex.html
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/10/2008 7:29:12 AM
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SonInMe1
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Part of teaching is getting someone to listen.
Jesus confronted the pharesees because they knew the truth...or should have and if anyone was to recognise Him as Lord and the Messiah, it should have been them, but no, they not only did not recognise Him, they persecuted Him.
Jesus did not go to any sinner and call them the names He called the pharesees. I don't believe we should either. Jesus loved the sinners to repentence.
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/10/2008 8:29:53 AM
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deliveredarling
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Yes, He did love the sinners to repentance. He also made no bones about telling them who and what they were. He didn't "temper" His message. He didn't tell us to temper the message either. If we do temper the message because people are not receptive, we are denying who He is. Jesus always told them Who He Is, Was and Is to Come. We are to do no lees than proclaim it always in word and deed.
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Luke 8:16
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/10/2008 8:38:31 AM
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mvic
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Hi Deliveredarling,
What do you mean "He didn't tell us to temper the message either. If we do ... we are denying who He is"?
Some non-believers I know are so obtuse that no amount of "non-tempering" will get through to them. If I were to call them hypocrites (like Jesus did) I'd get a bloody nose.
As an example of their comments: see my other Post (Fear is your motivator).
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/10/2008 8:43:36 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Yes, He did love the sinners to repentance. He also made no bones about telling them who and what they were. He didn't "temper" His message. He didn't tell us to temper the message either. If we do temper the message because people are not receptive, we are denying who He is. Jesus always told them Who He Is, Was and Is to Come. We are to do no lees than proclaim it always in word and deed.
Go back and read encounters like the woman caught in adultery and the Samaritan woman at the well and Zacchaeus and others.
I agree with SonInMe1, Jesus did not tell most sinners "who and what they were," only the self-righteous religious people who thought their "religion" made them acceptable to God and better than the lowly "sinners" around them.
Too many preachers, evangelists, and professing Christians beat all sinners with the sort of lashings that Jesus only reserved for people just like them.
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/10/2008 9:05:00 AM
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mvic
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Thank you JimboFletch. Good point well made.
So we now have two types of sinners (non-believers). Those who, like the Pharisees, should know better and yet deny the Lord and stand in the way of anyone else who wants to believe. They deserve of course the full lashings handed out by Jesus.
And the other non-believers (sinners) who do so through ignorance, obstinacy, apathy, or whatever. They just won't listen. Do they deserve pity, love and patience to lead them to the Lord? Or do they deserve a good telling for being as stubborn as a mule?
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/10/2008 9:09:58 AM
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deliveredarling
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He told her to go and sin no more. That is point blank, no fluff, no extra unnecessary information. No yelling, screaming , you are a sinner kind of stuff.
I'm in no way advocating such behavior. He was point blank and to the point. That was all that was necessary. We are called to do no less. The Truth sets us free, if we don't proclaim it, we are not free, yet bound by religiosity. I don't have to scream or stick my fingers in some one's face to make a point. Saying it is enough. If they accept it, "I have one a brother.....". It's not up to me to convert, it is up to me, whether I proclaim it or hide in shame of it.
If I truly love my brother, I will tell them the Truth. Not tell them the Truth and leave them to figure out the rest on their own. I will walk side by side. there is a difference in truth telling out of love and truth telling to put on a show for others to see our righteousness.
< Message edited by deliveredarling -- 6/10/2008 9:18:08 AM >
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"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/10/2008 9:11:15 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
...And the other non-believers (sinners) who do so through ignorance, obstinacy, apathy, or whatever. They just won't listen. Do they deserve pity, love and patience to lead them to the Lord? Or do they deserve a good telling for being as stubborn as a mule?
The entire burden for causing the lost to listen rests on the Holy Spirit. As long as we try to do His job through our own technique, people will not listen. The only job Jesus gives us is the job of sowing the seed (Gospel). He produces the new life and spiritual fruit.
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/10/2008 9:39:04 AM
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mvic
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Thank you JimboFletch once again.
Please, please, please ... don't think I'm criticising with all my questions. I'm trying to learn from reading others points of view (some much wiser than me) and then evaluate what they say.
So here's another question: You say the burden for causing the lost to listen rests on the Holy Spirit: i.e. not me. All I have to do is witness (sow the seed) as best as I can. I agree with this.
If the hard-heads still don't listen: is it because the Holy Spirit failed? (I don't think so). Is it because I failed (maybe). Or is it because they were not meant to listen in the first placed?
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/10/2008 9:49:35 AM
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deliveredarling
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I know you addressed this to Jimbo, I felt compelled to respond.
quote:
If the hard-heads still don't listen: is it because the Holy Spirit failed? (I don't think so). Is it because I failed (maybe). Or is it because they were not meant to listen in the first placed?
It's because they rejected Him.
Mar 6:11 "Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them."
It's not based on our power, it is by choice. The HS can not fail! People can and do.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/10/2008 9:01:08 PM
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SonInMe1
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quote:
It's because they rejected Him.
Not solely. They have to be called as well.
How do we sow seeds? Its not always with our mouth, in fact I doubt words save people more than how we live our lives. Words without living it is hypocracy. Preach Jesus all you want to but if your faith does not have works, its not faith.
The three I's. Invest....get to know the people you are blessed to witness to. The opportunity will then present itself. Integrity, live your walk in everything you do. This will make you different from the world making people curious and through that a witness will evolve.
The last I is, in our church, invite. Invite them to our church so the gospel can be presented in a way that is direct.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/10/2008 9:40:03 PM
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HisFish
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Mvic, i was reading in 1 Peter last night, and comming upon 1 Peter 4:15 i found something that tells me, concerning the subject of your post, that you are............right.
1 Peter 4:15
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people’s matters.
Reading the commentary for this passage it shows a range of meanings for this and this part struck me
" As a general rule, a christian living in a non-christian culture is to do his work faithfully, exalt Jesus Christ, and live a virtuous life, rather than try to overturn or disrupt his culture".
Also given are these scripture quotes that complement 1 peter 4:15.
1 Thessalonians 4:11
11 that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you,
2 Thessalonians 3:11
11 For we hear that there are some who walk among you in a disorderly manner, not working at all, but are busybodies.
1 Timothy 2
1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior.
Accordingly, i abandon my position and cede to the wisdom in your position. I would rather be right with Gods word than be stubborn in an opinion. Well done sir. 
< Message edited by HisFish -- 6/10/2008 9:47:35 PM >
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The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/11/2008 6:40:15 AM
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mvic
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No ... no ... no ...
This is not a competition as to who is wiser. Your position is also correct. There are times when we should speak out; even though wisdom dictates otherwise.
Let me give you an example that happened to me. Many years ago as a youth I worked in the City. Near our office was a superb Cathedral. A tourist attraction.
At lunch-time a group of us decided to go and have a look. As we entered the Cathedral, one of us, (he was senior to me), said with a grand gesture of his hand: Does any of you really believe in all this nonsense? God, Jesus and all that?
It infuriated me and I replied: Yes, as a matter of fact I do. And it is not nonsense.
The group fell silent. Some no doubt wondering about the foolishness of my youth - speaking out like that to a senior.
I don't know how I would react if the same thing happened today. Maybe your position or mine is the right one. I don't know.
Sadly, in a so called Christian country, with the Monarch as Head of the Church and "Fidei Defensor" - Christianity is loosing ground.
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/11/2008 7:45:30 AM
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SonInMe1
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I understand your response to the question and being young at the time I am sure that response would have been many of our's.
Now, if it comes up, just say....yes.
quote:
Does any of you really believe in all this nonsense? God, Jesus and all that?
Yep, just say....yes. Demurely. Simply.
Be kind to your enemy and it will be like lumping burning coals upon his head. That is my new "revenge". When a coworker played a terrible practical joke on me I told him I would get even...and told him how.
The next week I baked him, and others, a large batch of homemade chocolate chip cookies.
Revenge...is sweet.
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/11/2008 6:28:38 PM
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SonInMe1
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hehe
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/12/2008 9:35:54 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Part of teaching is getting someone to listen.
Jesus confronted the pharesees because they knew the truth...or should have and if anyone was to recognise Him as Lord and the Messiah, it should have been them, but no, they not only did not recognise Him, they persecuted Him.
Jesus did not go to any sinner and call them the names He called the pharesees. I don't believe we should either. Jesus loved the sinners to repentence.
Mathew 15: 21 Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”
23 But He answered her not a word.
And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
26 But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
27 And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
He refers to this lady as a dog..... Sounds pretty condemning to me, and she was not a religious person. I am not saying we should go around calling people dogs. But I do think we should explain to them the condition they are in, and it is not a good one or a pretty one. A lot of Christians try to make sin out to be something that is not as bad as it is. Sin is horrible nasty and keeps us from a Holy God, it is a big deal. So going up to someone like it isn't a big deal, is a disservice to them and to God.
< Message edited by AboundinginHisGrace -- 6/12/2008 9:43:39 AM >
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/12/2008 9:47:15 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
He refers to this lady as a dog.....
No He doesn't. He used an analogy that contrasted the OT relationship of Israel to God vs. all Gentiles. You focus on that but failed to remark on His follow-up exclamation, "O woman, great is your faith!"
That doesn't sound condemning to me.
As Jesus knew, I also have found that most sinners already KNOW they are lost sinners in need of grace. It's the religious folk that think their baptism and church membership makes them better than everyone else. It's a lot harder to wake up an old hypocrite than a prostitute to their condition.
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RE: Too much religion addles the brain ! - 6/12/2008 11:12:43 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
He refers to this lady as a dog.....
No He doesn't. He used an analogy that contrasted the OT relationship of Israel to God vs. all Gentiles. You focus on that but failed to remark on His follow-up exclamation, "O woman, great is your faith!"
That doesn't sound condemning to me.
As Jesus knew, I also have found that most sinners already KNOW they are lost sinners in need of grace. It's the religious folk that think their baptism and church membership makes them better than everyone else. It's a lot harder to wake up an old hypocrite than a prostitute to their condition.
I know what he was referring to about dogs. Jews called the Gentiles dogs. The Canaanites were big into worshiping baal. I feel that Jesus was letting her know here current state. (lost in sin) I shouldn't have used the word condemn He wasn't condemning here, but was telling her in her current state she is condemned. Oh I wasn't disclaiming the fact that she did have faith. I was just focusing on that particular verse due to the above comments. We are all dogs before a Holy God. And only through His grace can we be made righteous before almighty God. I am no better than her. There is a BIG difference in knowing your a sinner, and KNOWING YOU ARE A SINNER.
< Message edited by AboundinginHisGrace -- 6/12/2008 11:40:50 AM >
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Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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