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RE: The dead horses - 6/12/2008 1:00:28 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
But communicating through sign language is abstract thought.
Or are you saying that deaf people are not capable of abstract thought because someone had to teach them to use sign language?
Definition of abstract thought: "Thinking that is coherent and logical"
Absract thought is not something that can be learned, so learning sign language is no more abstract thought than learning how many times to bark when a number is shown. I also taught my dog that, so I guess he's developing into a human being, right? haha.....
quote:
And now you are just making stuff up.
That's what you'd like to think. Is this your way of reinforcing your dogma, by claiming all evidence and/or opinions of said evidence that does not agree with yours is made up?
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RE: The dead horses - 6/12/2008 1:20:20 PM
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swan42
Posts: 347
Joined: 5/3/2008
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quote:
Definition of abstract thought: "Thinking that is coherent and logical"
That's a completely useless and incorrect definition.
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RE: The dead horses - 6/12/2008 1:23:25 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1025
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Absract thought is not something that can be learned
Excellent, since abstract thought cannot be learned, and "The Project has also demonstrated that great apes possess qualities that were previously considered exclusively human, such as abstract thought"...
Then Koko did not learn abstract thought from humans; rather, she learned a language with which she could express (to humans) her pre-existing inner abstract thoughts.
Thus, Koko is a "speaking [ape] who is capable of abstract thought."
Thus, this meets your requirement for evidence that humans and other great apes share a common ancestor.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: The dead horses - 6/12/2008 1:44:44 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7564
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
Monkeys are not great apes. However, gorillas are great apes and are capable of abstract thought.
"From the beginning, Koko's ability to learn exceeded expectations. Over time, Koko has mastered over 1,000 signs, and has invented new signs and compound words (e.g., “eye hat” for mask). Without any training, she demonstrated extensive comprehension of spoken English. The Project has also demonstrated that great apes possess qualities that were previously considered exclusively human, such as abstract thought, feelings, sense of humor and imagination."
http://www.koko.org/friends/about_us.html
Actually, there is a lot of skepticism about these 'studies' - I like this from one skeptic:
Time magazine dubbed Koko's internet chat session a "Dada exercise" noting that Penny Patterson as interpreter used "some pretty impressive logic to expand her simian friend's limited communication skills." A partial transcript from the session is revealing:
Question: Koko are you going to have a baby in the future?
Koko signs: Pink
Patterson explains: We had earlier discussion about colors today.
Question: Do you like to chat with people?
Koko signs: Fine nipple.
Patterson explains: Nipple rhymes with people, she doesn't sign people per se, she was trying to do a "sounds like..."
Question: Does she have hair? Or is it like fur?
Koko signs: Fine.
Patterson explains: She has fine hair.
Question: Koko, do you feel love from the humans who have raised you?
Koko signs: Lips, apple give me.
Patterson explains: People give her her favorite foods.
Linguists note that Koko's signs fail to produce the syntax of young children's phrases, and cannot be considered actual language. They also question why the flashes of human-like intelligence allegedly displayed by Koko and other primates have not been observed in the wild. For example, Koko uses paints to create what her handlers claim are pictures of her surroundings and representations of memories from early in her life. Curiously though, primates in the wild have yet to be observed displaying similar picture-making ability.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: The dead horses - 6/12/2008 3:48:31 PM
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Method
Posts: 1095
Joined: 9/19/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Actually, there is a lot of skepticism about these 'studies' - I like this from one skeptic:
I have no doubt that there are skeptics. Here is another excerpt in support.
Koko's quick grasp of ASL, however, may have been aided by the fact that wild gorillas already appear to have their own form of sign language. Researchers have detected a whole suite of hand gestures and body postures the animals use to communicate; to Koko, learning ASL may seem like learning a dialect of her own existing language. And just as humans often adapt foreign words to their own language, Koko appears to have adapted ASL signs to fit her own needs -- and the shape of her hands. Just as bilingual speakers have created mixed languages like "Spanglish" (Spanish and English), Koko apparently has created GSL, a mixture of ASL and her own gestures.
This directly contradicts evry1needsgod contention that gorillas had to learn to communicate. In actuality, they just had to learn a new language.
And using gestures to convey meaning is the very definition of abstract thought.
And another incident:
"About a month ago, Koko, the 300-plus-pound ape who became famous for mastering more than 1,000 signs, began telling her handlers at the Gorilla Foundation in Woodside she was in pain. They quickly constructed a pain chart, offering Koko a scale from one to 10. When Koko started pointing to nine or 10, a dental appointment was made. And because anesthesia would be involved, her handlers used the opportunity to give Koko a head-to-toe exam."
http://www.boingboing.net/2004/08/09/koko-the-gorilla-use.html
And I will fully admit that there is a serious possibility of bias on the part of the trainers. Such bias is unavoidable. However, I can't see a dog coming anywhere close to Koko's ability which indicates the mental prowess of the common ancestor of all apes (including humans).
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RE: The dead horses - 6/12/2008 3:52:50 PM
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Method
Posts: 1095
Joined: 9/19/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Definition of abstract thought: "Thinking that is coherent and logical"
That's not the definition I am familiar with. Abstract thought is the process of using symbolism to describe reality.
abstract:
1. thought of apart from concrete realities, specific objects, or actual instances: an abstract idea.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abstract
The signs are apart from concrete realities. So too are the sign combinations that Koko invented for items that Koko had not been taught a sign for.
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quote:
And now you are just making stuff up.
That's what you'd like to think. Is this your way of reinforcing your dogma, by claiming all evidence and/or opinions of said evidence that does not agree with yours is made up?
Let's review what you said. "Had Koko never seen a human being, these so called "feeling, sense of humor, imagination, and abstract thought" would never have happened, meaning they are learned, remaining exclusive to mankind."
How did you determine this?
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RE: The dead horses - 6/12/2008 3:54:05 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7564
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
I have no doubt that there are skeptics. Here is another excerpt in support.
Koko's quick grasp of ASL, however, may have been aided by the fact that wild gorillas already appear to have their own form of sign language. Researchers have detected a whole suite of hand gestures and body postures the animals use to communicate; to Koko, learning ASL may seem like learning a dialect of her own existing language. And just as humans often adapt foreign words to their own language, Koko appears to have adapted ASL signs to fit her own needs -- and the shape of her hands. Just as bilingual speakers have created mixed languages like "Spanglish" (Spanish and English), Koko apparently has created GSL, a mixture of ASL and her own gestures.
This directly contradicts evry1needsgod contention that gorillas had to learn to communicate. In actuality, they just had to learn a new language.
And using gestures to convey meaning is the very definition of abstract thought.
And another incident:
"About a month ago, Koko, the 300-plus-pound ape who became famous for mastering more than 1,000 signs, began telling her handlers at the Gorilla Foundation in Woodside she was in pain. They quickly constructed a pain chart, offering Koko a scale from one to 10. When Koko started pointing to nine or 10, a dental appointment was made. And because anesthesia would be involved, her handlers used the opportunity to give Koko a head-to-toe exam."
http://www.boingboing.net/2004/08/09/koko-the-gorilla-use.html
And I will fully admit that there is a serious possibility of bias on the part of the trainers. Such bias is unavoidable. However, I can't see a dog coming anywhere close to Koko's ability which indicates the mental prowess of the common ancestor of all apes (including humans).
I think there is much more bias then believers will admit. In fact, I am willing to bet a regular ALS signer who hadn't been 'trained' to see Koko's signs as communication wouldn't be able to communicate with her at all.
But I disagree with your assesment of dogs - when hungry, my dog will pick up her dish, and place it at my feet - something she learned to do without any training.
I would say that is about as clear as communication gets.
< Message edited by Jhud -- 6/12/2008 4:00:06 PM >
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: The dead horses - 6/12/2008 4:01:21 PM
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Method
Posts: 1095
Joined: 9/19/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I think there is much more bias then believers will admit. In fact, I am willing to bet a regular ALS signer who hadn't been 'trained' to see Koko's signs as communication wouldn't be able to communicate with her at all.
I've seen Koko sign. It is obvious when she is signing. And there is certainly a lot of bias where the interpretation is involved.
Perhaps you could apply ID principles and see if the signs are due to intelligence?;)
quote:
But I disagree with your assesment of dogs - when hungry, my dog will pick up her dish, and place it at my feet - something she learned to do without any training.
That's not abstract. That is concrete. Trainers claim that Koko puts together words to arrive at a new word. This is abstract thought.
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RE: The dead horses - 6/12/2008 4:02:46 PM
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Method
Posts: 1095
Joined: 9/19/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
What evidence, if found, would indicate that humans and other great apes share a common ancestor? What would this evidence look like?
A speaking monkey who (I use that word intentionally) is capable of abstract thought.
I am also curious about another thing. Biologists have concluded that we also share common ancestry with all vertebrates. To evidence this would sea squirts need to display abstract thought?
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RE: The dead horses - 6/12/2008 4:18:32 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7564
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
I've seen Koko sign. It is obvious when she is signing. And there is certainly a lot of bias where the interpretation is involved.
Perhaps you could apply ID principles and see if the signs are due to intelligence?;)
Actually, I would be more interested in Koko's (and other animals) tool and structure designing abilities - that would be more amenable to intelligence detection than the subjective attributions of 'communication'.
quote:
That's not abstract. That is concrete. Trainers claim that Koko puts together words to arrive at a new word. This is abstract thought.
It is abstract - the dog dish is a symbol of food for Lucy. I am sure if she had fingers she would simply point at it.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: The dead horses - 6/12/2008 10:38:54 PM
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Method
Posts: 1095
Joined: 9/19/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Actually, I would be more interested in Koko's (and other animals) tool and structure designing abilities - that would be more amenable to intelligence detection than the subjective attributions of 'communication'.
Then you should be interested in chimps who search for tools and fashion tools to capture termites and crack nuts.
quote:
It is abstract - the dog dish is a symbol of food for Lucy. I am sure if she had fingers she would simply point at it.
Then it appears that your dog is capable of abstract thought.
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RE: The dead horses - 6/13/2008 12:24:48 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7564
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
Then you should be interested in chimps who search for tools and fashion tools to capture termites and crack nuts.
Certainly I am.
quote:
Then it appears that your dog is capable of abstract thought.
As much as any ape.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: The dead horses - 6/13/2008 1:54:49 PM
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Method
Posts: 1095
Joined: 9/19/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Then it appears that your dog is capable of abstract thought.
As much as any ape.
And being that humans are apes . . .
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RE: The dead horses - 6/13/2008 1:58:09 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7564
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
And being that humans are apes . . .
According to the convenient classification of evolutionists.
Though my dog seems brighter than many of those as well.
Were she an evolutionist, she wouldn't bring me the dish, merely stare at it hoping that food would eventually evolve in there from the surrounding chemistry.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: The dead horses - 6/19/2008 8:47:36 PM
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Method
Posts: 1095
Joined: 9/19/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
And being that humans are apes . . .
According to the convenient classification of evolutionists.
According to the father of taxonomy, Linnaeus, who also happened to be a creationist. In fact, Linnaeus when a step further than modern classifications. He had humans and chimps in the same genus.
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RE: The dead horses - 6/20/2008 12:58:39 AM
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Veritas
Posts: 494
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
And being that humans are apes . . .
According to the convenient classification of evolutionists.
Though my dog seems brighter than many of those as well.
Were she an evolutionist, she wouldn't bring me the dish, merely stare at it hoping that food would eventually evolve in there from the surrounding chemistry.
No evolutionist stares at a dish hoping taht food will eventually evolve from the surronding chemistry.
You've said that you used to accept the theory of evolution. During that time, did you ever stare at a dish hoping that food would evolve there from the surronding chemistry? Is that how you came to reject the theory of evolution?
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RE: The dead horses - 6/21/2008 12:29:29 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7564
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
No evolutionist stares at a dish hoping taht food will eventually evolve from the surronding chemistry.
You've said that you used to accept the theory of evolution. During that time, did you ever stare at a dish hoping that food would evolve there from the surronding chemistry? Is that how you came to reject the theory of evolution?
I said I used to be an evolutionist - I didn't say I used to be a dog.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: The dead horses - 6/21/2008 12:34:20 PM
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Method
Posts: 1095
Joined: 9/19/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I said I used to be an evolutionist - I didn't say I used to be a dog.
Well, did you wait with an empty bowl waiting for your food to evolve? A simple yes or not will do.
Or just admit that you will go to great lengths to unjustly villify a position that you don't like.
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