romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (Full Version)

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john_mark -> romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/7/2008 9:50:22 AM)

in romans 1 paul writes about man's knowledge of God.

19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

i have only included a portion of the passage, pls feel free to cite more if needed.

my question is this, some see this passage as refering to adam, and others, myself included see this applying to everyone from adam until today. those who see this applying to adam only, usually do so because they understand man to be born depraved, incapable of knowing God without a special work from God.

my difficulty is that i dont see anything in the passage that would limit it to adam. so i see people born with a knowledge of God and rejecting that knowledge and their hearts are darkened. to avoid needless discussion yes i believe everyone rejects God and all are in need of a saviour. but this view of the passage makes each individual guilty of his own sin, not the sin of adam.

how do you understand romans 1 and the knowledge of God



HisFish -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/7/2008 10:02:30 AM)

quote:

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

I draw the same conclusion as you John_mark, from this key scripture. Like its been said, "you see a building, you assume a builder", same with God's creation of this earth, limiting this to adam and eve makes no sense.



drmark -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/7/2008 11:26:40 AM)

quote:

my question is this, some see this passage as refering to adam, and others, myself included see this applying to everyone from adam until today. those who see this applying to adam only, usually do so because they understand man to be born depraved, incapable of knowing God without a special work from God.
Is "knowing God" the same as "having saving faith in God"? Paul's description of the power of general revelation certainly removes any excuse the agno-atheist may claim on the Judgement Day. However, merely knowing God exists as intellectual assent cannot and does not result in salvation by grace through faith. James 2:18-19 confirms this fact!



HisFish -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/7/2008 11:29:08 AM)

I agree drmark, this is general knowledge, not saving knowledge. I dont think thats the claim being made though.



john_mark -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/7/2008 12:51:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

my question is this, some see this passage as refering to adam, and others, myself included see this applying to everyone from adam until today. those who see this applying to adam only, usually do so because they understand man to be born depraved, incapable of knowing God without a special work from God.
Is "knowing God" the same as "having saving faith in God"? Paul's description of the power of general revelation certainly removes any excuse the agno-atheist may claim on the Judgement Day. However, merely knowing God exists as intellectual assent cannot and does not result in salvation by grace through faith. James 2:18-19 confirms this fact!


no i am not saying that this is saving faith. but it seems to be knowledge beyond mere mental ascent, depending on how you define mental ascent.

there is knowledge of His eternal power and divine nature, there appears from verse 21 enough knowledge to honor Him as God and give Him thanks. chapter 2 in verses 14-16 indicates a knowledge of God's Law and an ability to at least sometimes obey that Law.

romans 1:28 says this

And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

only after those spoken of no longer acknowledge God are they given over to a depraved mind. so whatever knowledge that is given up by the individual seems to be the knowledge that seperates the depraved from those not depraved.



stampinlady -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/7/2008 12:56:13 PM)

To me it's merely saying that no one can ever say that they didn't have chance.[;)]



HisFish -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/7/2008 12:59:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stampinlady

To me it's merely saying that no one can ever say that they didn't have chance.[;)]

That too.



drmark -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/7/2008 1:20:51 PM)

quote:

only after those spoken of no longer acknowledge God are they given over to a depraved mind. so whatever knowledge that is given up by the individual seems to be the knowledge that seperates the depraved from those not depraved.
So, are you saying that not everyone is depraved and that one's ultimate state of depravity depends on one's continued awareness of God working in creation?



john_mark -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/7/2008 3:01:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

So, are you saying that not everyone is depraved and that one's ultimate state of depravity depends on one's continued awareness of God working in creation?


paul's argument in romans 1-3 concludes that all people sin and fall into a state of depravity so that all are guilty for their rejection of God. but paul's argument starts from an understanding/knowledge of God and moves to depravity, it doesnt seem to start from depravity to deeper depravity. paul makes the argument that the individual stands guilty for his own sin parralling what jeremiah said in chapter 31

30 "But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.



drmark -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/7/2008 3:05:13 PM)

What is "deeper depravity"? All haved sinned and fallen short as you point out from Romans 3.



john_mark -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/7/2008 3:54:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

What is "deeper depravity"? All haved sinned and fallen short as you point out from Romans 3.


i dont think that there is such a thing as deeper depravity. as i was writing that i was thinking of v28 where paul writes that God gave them over to a depraved mind. it brought to mind the hardening of pharoah's heart, if pharoah's heart was hard why the need to harden it further. so i was in thinking how can one move from depravity to deeper depravity, why would God give someone who already had a depraved mind over to a depraved mind?

perhaps we are using different ideas for depravity. i was using it in a reformed definition though i am not reformed, can i ask how you understand depravity?



kalaynn -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/7/2008 4:42:24 PM)

IF ANYONE CAN HELP ME WITH SCRIPTURES ON THIS SUBJECT DEAD CAN NOT TALK US AND WE CAN'T TALK TO THEM WOULD APPECIATE VERY IMPORTANT COULD SAVE A SOUL[:)] THANK YOU KALAYNN



john_mark -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/7/2008 5:41:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalaynn

IF ANYONE CAN HELP ME WITH SCRIPTURES ON THIS SUBJECT DEAD CAN NOT TALK US AND WE CAN'T TALK TO THEM WOULD APPECIATE VERY IMPORTANT COULD SAVE A SOUL[:)] THANK YOU KALAYNN


kalaynn,


welcome to the forumn

can you be a little more specific as to what you want to know? maybe ask it in the form of a question.



BookerG -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/7/2008 6:05:35 PM)

There are deeper levels of depravity. Unbelievers can do very good things, from a human point of view; they love their children, they might sacrifice their own life to save someone. Yet even their most righteous act is depraved, sinful and dead in God's eyes--the greatest love they can show is a sin against the first commandment to love God above all things. They also have a conscience, God's moral law written in their hearts. Giving a depraved person over to depravity, I think, means their conscience becomes completely silent or twisted so that they are proud of things that their own conscience should be disgusted by, and they call good what is plainly and undeniably evil.
People are born depraved, but they also have senses and reason that is capable not of faith but of intellectual knowledge of both the qualities of God and of the requirements of God's law, so that they are without excuse not only if they reject God's Word but when they even reject what their own hearts and minds are telling them is right.
Also, consider the possibility that Paul is not talking about individuals who started out believing or at least not depraved and became depraved, but a human race that started out with Adam in full knowledge of God, and generation after generation has been more depraved than the one before. The man he describes may be sort of a generic depiction of the population outside of Christ. When Paul says "They knew God," he might be talking about the limited non-saving knowledge of reason, or he may be going back to the beginning and thinking of people like Cain's family and Lamech, who knew who the true God was, but boasted in their sins and eventually became so depraved that God would wipe out all life on earth. Not everyone has had the opportunity to gain knowledge of the true God through Scriptures, yet Paul includes the whole world in his descriptions of their depravity, so the knowledge and honoring God that he mentions must either be the limited following of conscience and the witness of creation, or it must be generational, what knowledge and honoring was lost many generations ago. I could go either way on this one.



john_mark -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/7/2008 6:13:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BookerG

There are deeper levels of depravity. Unbelievers can do very good things, from a human point of view; they love their children, they might sacrifice their own life to save someone. Yet even their most righteous act is depraved, sinful and dead in God's eyes--the greatest love they can show is a sin against the first commandment to love God above all things.


so if a person rejects God and does not honor Him as God and kills his children, which is the deeper depravity, rejecting God or killing his children? are they not really one and the same thing?



eschatologist -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/7/2008 7:23:03 PM)

Verse 19: Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20: For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse; 21: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

The main thrust of these verses is to show that God's creation is the greatest proof of His existence and of His love and care for His children. His eternal power and Godhead is manifest in His creation, so they are without excuse. But even though people saw God's work in His creation, they weren't thankful for all that He does for them but became lifted up in pride and started worshiping the things they can see, such as animals, the sun, moon, stars, etc. instead of worshipping and humbling themselves toward the invisible, almighty God, the creator of the universe. As verse 25 says: 'Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."

Verse 28 "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient." This is prophetically just as true today as it was in Paul's day. or as it was in Adam's day before the flood. They didn't like to retain God in their knowledge (Education). So they made it illegal to preach the Gospel in today's public schools but instead replaced the worship of the one true invisible God with Darwin's anti-god religion of evolution which says that the creation created itself and thereby changing the glory of uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (see verse 23)

So all these scientists and educators and professors who think they are wise and smart because of their knowledge and education are actually total morans and stupid idiots. Read verse 29-32 to see all things they are full of.

Regarding your question about whether this applies only to Adam and Eve or to all men, this, of course does apply to everybody. But as I read on it seems that what you are trying to get at is that everybody is born with the knowledge of God and then falls from this knowledge into sin and depravity by disobeying God. It is true that everyone of us has to give account of Himself to God and we have to take responsibility for our own sins and can't blame everything on Adam. However, there is also a balance to this. Adam and eve's transgression in the Gartden of Eden brought sin into the world. Before their treansgression there was no sin in the world. But because of their transgression sin came into the world and from then on sin was automatically imputed upon all men. As Romans 5:12 says "Wherefore as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Everybody is a depraved sinner because of Adam's disobedience. That's why we need Jesus. No amount of obedience to the Law or to the rules is going to make us perfect and sinless. Because of man's inborn sinful nature brought into the world by Adam it is totally impossible for anybody to attain to God's heavenly perfection by thier own good works and trying to be good. Because sin is automatically imputed upon all men, therefore, the only way to attain to the righteousness of God is to have righteousness automatically imputed upon us by forgiving us and washing away and cleansing us of our sins, by Faith. This is where Jesus comes in: "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men to justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." (Romans 5:18-19)

You are a sinner because of one man's disobedience. (Adams, not your own) And you are made righteous by one man's odedience. (Jesus', not your own) Of course, People have to believe in Jesus and recieve His pardon for their sins. I'm not part of the crowd who believe that all people are automatically saved just because Jesus died for them. They have to believe in and recieve Jesus, otherwise they will continue to be depraved sinners and to have a reprobate mind.



BookerG -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/7/2008 7:38:21 PM)

Rejecting God is the more serious sin, and it is what is generally referred to in the term "total depravity" since a rejection of God means that every single thought, word and deed will be darkness, and there is no shred of good which is capable of loving, trusting or choosing God. But even God makes a distinction between simple unbelief (which could be called the ultimate evil because it rejects the ultimate good and it condemns to hell, but which is also the condition into which all people are born including the children of believers and does not distinguish any difference between one person and another) and the depths to which mankind is able to sink. After all, he didn't destroy Sodom and Gomorrah just for being filled with unbelievers. And Paul's description of God giving men over to depravity does not just mean they're not church-goers.

Edit: Before anyone objects, let me clarify that I don't mean God makes any distinction in terms of worthiness to be saved: There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But that doesn't mean he can't look at sinners and see that one is more vilely and deeply opposed to God's will than another. While hatred and murder are equal in meriting God's wrath, they are not equal in their effects in harming others or in defiance of God. Just because all sin is equally condemning does not mean that all sin is the same.



ta_mosquito -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/7/2008 8:34:47 PM)

Kalaynn,

Welcome to the forums!

I've started a thread for you on your question. CLICK HERE to go to it. Hopefully we'll get some good responses there!

Tricia
Forums Moderator



drmark -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/8/2008 9:01:27 AM)

quote:

perhaps we are using different ideas for depravity. i was using it in a reformed definition though i am not reformed, can i ask how you understand depravity?
This is the Reformed definition of "Total Depravity" - Human beings are so affected by the negative consequences of original sin (depraved) that they are incapable of being righteous, and are always and unchangeably sinful; human freedom is totally enslaved by sin so we can only choose evil.

This is the Wesleyan/Arminian definition of "Deprivation" - Human beings are sinful and without God, incapable (deprived) on their own of being righteous; however, they are not irredeemably sinful and can be transformed by God’s grace; God's prevenient grace restores to humanity the freedom of will.

I adhere to the W/A concept and reject total depravity as unscriptural. It appears to me that you do as well, john_mark. If so, then we both interpret Romans 1 in a similar manner.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/8/2008 3:25:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: john_mark

in romans 1 paul writes about man's knowledge of God.

19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

i have only included a portion of the passage, pls feel free to cite more if needed.

my question is this, some see this passage as refering to adam, and others, myself included see this applying to everyone from adam until today. those who see this applying to adam only, usually do so because they understand man to be born depraved, incapable of knowing God without a special work from God.

my difficulty is that i dont see anything in the passage that would limit it to adam. so i see people born with a knowledge of God and rejecting that knowledge and their hearts are darkened. to avoid needless discussion yes i believe everyone rejects God and all are in need of a saviour. but this view of the passage makes each individual guilty of his own sin, not the sin of adam.

how do you understand romans 1 and the knowledge of God


It simply states that God is self evident in His creation and no man is without excuse... Man is born sans the Spirit so the idea man is born with some innate knowledge of God doesn't align with Scripture. Man is born SPIRITULY dead... If the heart man is born with is capable of knowing God, loving and serving the Lord it wouldn't need to be replaced. Faith comes by hearing the word, not exercising some never spoke of knowledge of God man is said to be born with... Man is inherently evil... Depraved is depraved and the flesh CANNOT please God, that leaves only the Spirit to please God and that also leaves man bound to hell if God doesn't act... So call it depraved, totally depraved, it's the same thing, man is dead and must be raised by God to be born again.

John



john_mark -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/8/2008 4:22:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

It simply states that God is self evident in His creation and no man is without excuse... Man is born sans the Spirit so the idea man is born with some innate knowledge of God doesn't align with Scripture.


romans 1

21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

to know something is knowledge is it not


romans 2

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

am i missing something? would not God's Law written on their hearts be an innate knowledge of God.



Heavendweller -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/8/2008 5:07:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: john_mark
so if a person rejects God and does not honor Him as God and kills his children, which is the deeper depravity, rejecting God or killing his children? are they not really one and the same thing?

JohnMark,
I would say that the of killing his children was a result of rejecting God. But they are not one and the same. One can reject God but not kill his children. While rejecting God is depraved, to kill one's children is even more depraved. So the end result in this case is worse. And according to our law, the latter depraved action will result in one being arrested, tried in a court of law, and if convicted by a jury of his peers, suffer punishment either by the death penalty or imprisonment.

While all sin is depraved in that it is offensive to God and a departure from faith, not all sin is the same. There are degrees of sin, and thus degrees of punishment both in this life and the life to come.

Heavendweller



Him4all -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/8/2008 6:35:34 PM)

quote:

eschatologist
Verse 19: Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them


In John, Jesus said "that which is born of the Sprit is the spirit." The spirit that dwells in every human has its birth from Father God.

HEB 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

With sin, that spirit is repeatedly "broken" "quenched" ect. and becomes a 'prodigal' to the Father and is dead in fellowship. That's why it doesn't need to be resurrected, it needs to be 'born again' or 'from above'. As the above verse states, that which is "IN them" knows of God.

With being 'born again' we once again come alive and fellowship is restored.

LUK 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

We all believe that babies and young children don't go to the eternal torture of hell even if they haven't "named the only name under heaven by which man can be saved", so how do they get there? I think this POV helps me deal with that issue....their spirits aren't 'dead' in their fellowship yet. I'm not going to argue this personal POV, but I do present it for your own thoughts.

DR



john_mark -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/8/2008 6:54:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Heavendweller

[JohnMark,
I would say that the of killing his children was a result of rejecting God. But they are not one and the same. One can reject God but not kill his children. While rejecting God is depraved, to kill one's children is even more depraved. So the end result in this case is worse. And according to our law, the latter depraved action will result in one being arrested, tried in a court of law, and if convicted by a jury of his peers, suffer punishment either by the death penalty or imprisonment.

While all sin is depraved in that it is offensive to God and a departure from faith, not all sin is the same. There are degrees of sin, and thus degrees of punishment both in this life and the life to come.

Heavendweller


i guess what i was thinking here is this: life is precious because it can only be given by God and He specifically outlaws taking it. before there is the Law, murder is an abomination to God as cain found out.

if darwinism were true, life would not be precious, but common. survival of the fittest would be the rule of the day.

so taking life is rejection of God and His authority to the utmost. i dont see how one could take a life without it being the ultimate rejection of God's authority because the murderer is saying to God i will decide who lives and who dies, in a sense i will be god.

so as i think about this it begs another question, are there degrees of rejecting God? the basis for my question is that i see sin as the rejection of God.

i understand the argument that lost people are not always as bad as they can be, and because of that it shows that they can choose not sin. i agree with that view.



Heavendweller -> RE: romans 1 and the knowledge of GOd (6/8/2008 8:23:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: john_mark

so as i think about this it begs another question, are there degrees of rejecting God? the basis for my question is that i see sin as the rejection of God.

i understand the argument that lost people are not always as bad as they can be, and because of that it shows that they can choose not sin. i agree with that view.

Are there degrees to rejecting God? Johnmark, would a better question be, are there degrees of sin? I watched part of the movie last night on the Green River killer. He was a detestable human being. Are we all capable of these same crimes? That is, could I or you or just any person commit the same kind of murders? I would say no. This man did not begin by killing. He first began carousing with prostitutes. Then he took it to a deeper step. As time went on, he enjoyed killing.

In other words, he became more depraved the more he committed murder. There came a point, and most likely early on when he began killing, in which he could not stop killing. The sin had overtaken him completely.

The converse can be said of a Christian who submits to the leading of the Holy Spirit. The Bible speaks of the believer being changed into Christ's likeness from one degree of glory to another.

Both of these examples show movement, not stagnation. With that said, sin is, as you say, a rejection of God. But the sin nature which we have inherited is different from actual sin. We inherit the fallen nature of our parents, Adam and Eve. We become partakers (for lack of a better word at the moment) of that sin nature when we actually commit sin.

Now as to why some commit more deplorable sins that others, that is a subject that has been going on for some time in the field of Psychology. This would be under the topic of Nature v.s. Nurture. And also be under a new subject heading.

The mystery of lawlessness and sin can be discussed but then there comes a point to where our understanding is limited. I have yet to understand how or why certain people can commit the heinous crimes that they do. It is beyond me. Yet, when Ted Bundy was interviewed, he understood the mind and the workings of other serial killers rather well.

Heavendweller



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