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RE: Was Eve an afterthought? - 6/8/2008 11:14:40 PM
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4IMPersuaded
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Hi mikejonesoftn--
You make an interesting point and I can't say I have good reason to disagree with you, but here's one more thing to add since all we can do is speak theoretically here.
God is not confined by time, so we cannot assume that he thinks in the linear manner that we are subject to. To God a thousand years is as a day and a day as a thousand years. He existed before He set time into motion. I agree that He thinks-- He so much as says so, but since His thoughts are above our thoughts, I just can't attribute "after-thoughts" to Him in this context. I will agree that however His thoughts work, though, the outcome is perfect!
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RE: Was Eve an afterthought? - 6/8/2008 11:18:14 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mikejonesoftn
Hoping I am not going off topic but putting a light bulb above someones head so that we could go more indepth on this subject.
Someone quoted
quote:
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts." -Isaiah 55
With that very scripture, I do believe to say it's safe to say that the Lord does think. However when he comes to his decision, it's perfect and never a mistake. So with that being said, do you not think that it's "possible" God thought and said "I will make a helper for man." Not thinking it before he created man?
quote:
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts." Could possibly be proof to him thinking and not ever making a mistake, as we can think and still make a mistake.
I like this train of thought,no pun intended  I believe that thoughts refer to plans of God as opposed to God having to think about something as we do.This would make God no better than us,Doing what he does by the seat of his pants.God would be on some sort of learning curve,life would be a trial by error,heck a comedy of errors.
God would have to keep readjusting based on his thinking.God could not claim to be the Lord that changes not,if he had to literally stop and think as he went along.
I don't think you mean to suggest that God actually has to pause and think about his plans.I do like the train of thought however.
I believe that it us who have to think,because we are not all knowing.If we knew everything there was to know,what would we have to think about?
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RE: Was Eve an afterthought? - 6/8/2008 11:21:08 PM
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mikejonesoftn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 4IMPersuaded
Hi mikejonesoftn--
You make an interesting point and I can't say I have good reason to disagree with you, but here's one more thing to add since all we can do is speak theoretically here.
God is not confined by time, so we cannot assume that he thinks in the linear manner that we are subject to. To God a thousand years is as a day and a day as a thousand years. He existed before He set time into motion. I agree that He thinks-- He so much as says so, but since His thoughts are above our thoughts, I just can't attribute "after-thoughts" to Him in this context. I will agree that however His thoughts work, though, the outcome is perfect!
We also can't assume that even if Eve was an afterthought, that he immediately thought to create Eve after he saw Adams action or whatever it may be. God could have thought to create Adam 100,000 yrs before he created him and thought to create Eve 50,000 yrs after he thought to created Adam. (I hope I am saying that right.) If so that IMO would be an "afterthought."
< Message edited by mikejonesoftn -- 6/8/2008 11:33:55 PM >
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RE: Was Eve an afterthought? - 6/8/2008 11:25:26 PM
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mikejonesoftn
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quote:
I believe that thoughts refer to plans of God as opposed to God having to think about something as we do
Based on what your saying that line would than look like in literal terms ""For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My plans than your plans.""
Which I think are two different but true lines.
EDIT:
quote:
God would have to keep readjusting based on his thinking.God could not claim to be the Lord that changes not,if he had to literally stop and think as he went along.
I think God claiming to be the Lord that changes not still applies. Since when he does "think" and come to his decision it is perfect.
< Message edited by mikejonesoftn -- 6/8/2008 11:33:13 PM >
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RE: Was Eve an afterthought? - 6/8/2008 11:34:27 PM
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4IMPersuaded
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Fair 'nuff... my head is starting to spin a little  .
This is where I drive my philosophy and logic professors a little crazy. I am really content to simply ask Him when I get there, you know? I can't wait to sit at His feet and ask about a zillion questions, can you? Thankfully there is an eternity to work it out!
It is fun to consider how the mind of God works, but in the end futile because we cannot begin to understand Him or define Him. I just default to the fact that He is the God that created an orderly, but breathtakingly beautiful universe. He created us in His (Their) image so our logic and appreciation of beauty are also in His image. He is not haphazzard or random, so the story is recorded that way for a purpose. It is up to the Holy Spirit to interpret it to us so that we can see what He has to teach us. What a great Gift to beleivers.
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RE: Was Eve an afterthought? - 6/9/2008 12:14:46 AM
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sunofone
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God created Adam,then he created Eve.Everything else God created had a partner but Man.This is for us to see something.God didn't forget to make Eve,and as an afterthought say wow I forgot to make him a partner.Fact is she was there the whole time.Gen 1 vs 26-27,also Gen 2 vs 22-23
She was present in the mind and plan of God as well as in Adam from the beginning.Eve was no more an afterthought than Jesus,he too was there even before he was manifested in the flesh.In fact he was present in the Garden(Gen 2 vs 9)
He was showing us that when he created us that we were not complete in and of ourselves.He then showed us,that we are not complete even with each other.We are only complete with and through him.
Only he completes us.
Adam sensed his need for Eve,but did he appreciate the need for the tree of life?We know he either did or would have after he disobeyed God as evidenced by (Gen 3 vs22-24)We know that it took the law to prepare man for Jesus.We know the law was prepatory conditioning man for the Savior.(Gal 3 vs 19,24)
Genesis 1 vs 26-31 tells us what God did,beginning with his declarative statement let us make man in our image in our likeness.We see in Romans 8 vs 29 just what this entailed,what exactly this image was.Hebrews 2 vs 10 also reveals what was in the plan or mind of God as well.
This is a cliff notes version of what I believe God was showing us in creating Eve after Adam.
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RE: Was Eve an afterthought? - 6/9/2008 12:43:27 AM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mikejonesoftn
quote:
I believe that thoughts refer to plans of God as opposed to God having to think about something as we do
Based on what your saying that line would than look like in literal terms ""For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My plans than your plans.""
Which I think are two different but true lines.
EDIT:
quote:
God would have to keep readjusting based on his thinking.God could not claim to be the Lord that changes not,if he had to literally stop and think as he went along.
I think God claiming to be the Lord that changes not still applies. Since when he does "think" and come to his decision it is perfect.
Here is an example of where thoughts and plans are used interchangeably from one version to the next:1 For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.The King James version renders this same word as thoughts.
Here is a perfect sandwich defining the word think:
15. to analyze or evolve rationally: to think the problem out.
16. to have as a plan or intention: I thought that I would go.
17. to anticipate or expect: I did not think to find you here.
I think the definition in the middle would most accurately describe God as it relates to his thinking or his thoughts.
The point is God does not think as we do.There is nothing outside of his knowledge that requires him to think,as in I didn't think of that.Implying that he missed something,or forgot something.
I hope this makes a little more sense to you now.
< Message edited by sunofone -- 6/9/2008 1:06:13 AM >
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RE: Was Eve an afterthought? - 6/9/2008 1:16:39 AM
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mikejonesoftn
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I am on clear on understanding that God does not think as we do. However I do not argue out that God does "think." God has a plan for us. To make a plan, you will have to think. When we hear the word "think" we as "humans" have to think to reach something outside of our knowledge. When I say God thinks, I do not feel that he has to necessarily try to reach something out of his knowledge. When we think we sort of go "maybe, maybe not, should I, or should I not, what if, and etc". I don't know what words to put this in but when I think of God thinking, I think of the brightest ideas just popping in his head lol.
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RE: Was Eve an afterthought? - 6/9/2008 7:05:57 AM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
And Adam gave names to all cattle,and to the fowl of the,and to every beast of the field;but for Adam there was not found an help fit for him.
And the Lord God said it is not good that the man should be alone;I will make him an help fit for him.
Why do you suppose Eve was made after Adam? The story reads as if she was an afterthought,was she?
If not is there some reason that can be known as to why she was created second,and seemingly an afterthought of God?
Man was created in God's image, and then "IT IS NOT GOOD FOR MAN TO BE ALONE"
does this teach us something about God's nature.
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RE: Was Eve an afterthought? - 6/9/2008 7:08:42 AM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mikejonesoftn
I am on clear on understanding that God does not think as we do. However I do not argue out that God does "think." God has a plan for us. To make a plan, you will have to think. When we hear the word "think" we as "humans" have to think to reach something outside of our knowledge. When I say God thinks, I do not feel that he has to necessarily try to reach something out of his knowledge. When we think we sort of go "maybe, maybe not, should I, or should I not, what if, and etc". I don't know what words to put this in but when I think of God thinking, I think of the brightest ideas just popping in his head lol.
God is a and our creator,which means he is creative:
cre·a·tive Audio Help /kriˈeɪtɪv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kree-ey-tiv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. having the quality or power of creating.
2. resulting from originality of thought, expression, etc.; imaginative: creative writing.
3. originative; productive
When he says his thoughts are higher than ours,it is encompassing all that is within his council.So when he says let there be, or I will,when he weighs a matter or assigns judgment;It is all according to the counsel of his will.
When we go about to execute our thoughts,we have blind spots all about us,things we couldn't see or know.So for instance when we said let us fly across time in the sky,we searched or thought about how it would happen,what course we would take.
What is key here is God's knowledge is so complete lacking nothing that when he does a thing,speaks a thing,it has the full weight of his knowledge instantaneously.
So that when he said let us make man,he possessed all the foreknowledge needed to carry out his plan.God knew exactly what he was doing and what must be done in order for this to happen.
If you look closely at how God went about establishing the earth,everything was in preparation for us,like a animal prepares for it's offspring.
Look closer and you will see that he made it and he went on and made the next thing,so on and so forth up until he created man.Everything he made/created up to man was complete and entire lacking nothing.Dare I say MESSAGE!
When he made man he showed us process.Keep in mind we were made according to his secret counsel,the Angels did not even know what we were to be.(1st Peter 1vs12,Ephesians 3 vs8-11)When he formed Adam,Eve was there for she had to be in order for Adam to be fruitful and multiply,Jesus was there as well as he would have the preeminence over all creation(Col 1 vs 18)
God when he uttered that statement,thought, the thought in an instance developed the well conceived plan, that is the making of man.The plan unfolds before our eyes in and across time where for God is was done in an instance.
Genesis 2 vs 2 puts to rest the idea that once God thought and in thinking carried out executed his plan that he would have need to keep thinking,as if there was something he would be capable of forgetting,some blindspot like;Oh shucks I forgot to make Eve! I better fix that,Oh No! look that serpent has ruined my creation,better go fix that too!LOL
And on the seventh day God ENDED HIS WORK which he had made;and he rested on the seventh day FROM ALL HIS WORK WHICH HE MADE.Way back in Genesis it was and is already done!
We know this day as the Sabbath.God wants us to get the message of his rest from work so clearly that he commands us to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.
The sabbath is Gods rest,it is his declarative statement that his word has gone out and it will accomplish what it has been set out to do.Although we don't see it,it is already done,so much so that he says for us to enter into that rest.( Hebrews 4 vs 3-11)
We just see it unfolding slowly across time,which is another creation of God, for our benefit, designed for us.We to like God beginning with Adam have worked for six days.We now find ourselves in the seventh day,the Sabbath,where we are called to Cease from our work and rest in his.
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RE: Was Eve an afterthought? - 6/9/2008 9:10:32 AM
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Doc65
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quote:
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." Gen. 1:26-27
It appears as if the postings are concerning Genesis 2 and ignoring Genesis 1; in the Gen. 1 account, it would seem, even in the Hebrew, that man and woman were created at the same time, thus Eve was not an afterthought...both accounts have to be taken together, not separately. Of course, this probably doesn't answer the OP's question but the original question failed to take into account both "stories"
And where we get Eve is in and of itself a question since she is referred to as "Chavah" or "Isha" (Isha being the word for woman or wife) unless Eve is a mongrelization of Chavah...but that's off-topic.
My 2.5 centsworth...
_____________________________
"The Sovereign Lord is my strength; He makes my feet like the feet of a deer, He enables me to go on the heights." Hab. 3:19
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RE: Was Eve an afterthought? - 6/9/2008 10:07:34 AM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doc65
quote:
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." Gen. 1:26-27
It appears as if the postings are concerning Genesis 2 and ignoring Genesis 1; in the Gen. 1 account, it would seem, even in the Hebrew, that man and woman were created at the same time, thus Eve was not an afterthought...both accounts have to be taken together, not separately. Of course, this probably doesn't answer the OP's question but the original question failed to take into account both "stories"
And where we get Eve is in and of itself a question since she is referred to as "Chavah" or "Isha" (Isha being the word for woman or wife) unless Eve is a mongrelization of Chavah...but that's off-topic.
My 2.5 centsworth...
quote:
God created Adam,then he created Eve.Everything else God created had a partner but Man.This is for us to see something.God didn't forget to make Eve,and as an afterthought say wow I forgot to make him a partner.Fact is she was there the whole time.Gen 1 vs 26-27,also Gen 2 vs 22-23
She was present in the mind and plan of God as well as in Adam from the beginning.Eve was no more an afterthought than Jesus,he too was there even before he was manifested in the flesh.In fact he was present in the Garden(Gen 2 vs 9)
This point was not forgotten see earlier post here: God created Adam,then he created Eve.Everything else God created had a partner but Man.This is for us to see something.God didn't forget to make Eve,and as an afterthought say wow I forgot to make him a partner.Fact is she was there the whole time.Gen 1 vs 26-27,also Gen 2 vs 22-23
She was present in the mind and plan of God as well as in Adam from the beginning.Eve was no more an afterthought than Jesus,he too was there even before he was manifested in the flesh.In fact he was present in the Garden(Gen 2 vs 9)
She was however created or bought forth after Adam,Paul confirms this in his epistle in 1st Timothy.So the op was designed to have us examine if God intended on showing us anything by bringing Eve forth in the manner he did.
I try not to give my opinion before others have chimed in,as not to carry the thread in any single direction.I want everyone to share what it is they are seeing.I have since my op given more of my insight as to what I'm seeing.
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RE: Was Eve an afterthought? - 6/9/2008 10:14:30 AM
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benelchi
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NO, Eve was not an after thought!
I believe that God waited to create Eve, after having Adam name all of the animals for his (Adam's) benefit. Clearly after experiencing everything that the animals did not have to offer, he would have understood the true value of Eve even more. The waiting gave Adam time to realize what he was missing, God already knew.
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RE: Was Eve an afterthought? - 6/9/2008 10:55:37 AM
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Doc65
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Sorry, sunofone, but it seemed as if everyone has been focusing on the Gen. 2 verses rather than both. If one chooses to look solely at Gen.1, then both man and woman were created at the same time...solely Gen.2, and they were created sequentially.
_____________________________
"The Sovereign Lord is my strength; He makes my feet like the feet of a deer, He enables me to go on the heights." Hab. 3:19
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RE: Was Eve an afterthought? - 6/9/2008 11:08:45 AM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doc65
Sorry, sunofone, but it seemed as if everyone has been focusing on the Gen. 2 verses rather than both. If one chooses to look solely at Gen.1, then both man and woman were created at the same time...solely Gen.2, and they were created sequentially.
I don't mean to disagree with either you or the bible,the Genesis 2 account explains in more detail how it was done which Paul affirms;However in reality she was there the whole time as I pointed to in the post I referred you to.
I like that God is always teaching us,it started from the very beginning as illustrated by Adam realizing that something was missing both before Eve was brought to fruition and after she came to be as he knew that she was taken from his side.
Even that is a lesson,in that Adam gave in order to get,he lost in order to gain.God is AWESOME!!!
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RE: Was Eve an afterthought? - 6/9/2008 11:43:21 AM
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Doc65
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quote:
I don't mean to disagree with either you or the bible
No disagreement. It just seemed that the focus was on Gen. 2.
Blessings on your day!
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"The Sovereign Lord is my strength; He makes my feet like the feet of a deer, He enables me to go on the heights." Hab. 3:19
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RE: Was Eve an afterthought? - 6/9/2008 11:53:14 AM
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Zhi
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It doesn't really make sense that God would not realize the need for Eve when Adam was created. He had already created all the animals in both a male and female form. God, more than anyone else, would know from the first design that without members of both genders, continuation of the species would not be possible... because He is the one who made it that way.
So, unless you believe that Adam was initially capable of asexual reproduction, or that God could make a mistake in forgetting to create half of what's necessary to procreate in the human species, God must have had another purpose in mind when He showed Adam that there was no suitable mate in all of creation, and that he was lacking something.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Was Eve an afterthought? - 6/9/2008 11:56:09 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
There is no such thing as God having an afterthought.
Precisely!!!
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RE: Was Eve an afterthought? - 6/9/2008 12:01:06 PM
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mikejonesoftn
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When God started the process of making earth and everything else in it I do not believe he had an afterthought or a change of mind, or new ideas. My question is, which isn't really important, but before the Earth was ever created how did God get his plan together?
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RE: Was Eve an afterthought? - 6/10/2008 10:49:23 PM
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4IMPersuaded
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doc65
quote:
So, unless you believe that Adam was initially capable of asexual reproduction
Bad picture, bad picture...must gouge out eyes!!! 
LOL!! If God had decided it should be so, it would be perfect... Thankfully He didn't!
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RE: Was Eve an afterthought? - 6/11/2008 12:09:46 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doc65
And where we get Eve is in and of itself a question since she is referred to as "Chavah" or "Isha" (Isha being the word for woman or wife) unless Eve is a mongrelization of Chavah...but that's off-topic.
Hebrew biblical names came to English by a tortuous route that really trashed the original pronounciations. They went from Hebrew to Greek to Latin and then to Old English and finally to modern English.
Yishayahoo => Isaiah
Yehoshuah => Joshua
Mattityahoo => Matthew
Yeshua => Jesus
Kefa => Peter
Yochanon => John
and yes - Chavah => Eve
Old Rabbinic question: Woman is called Ishah because she came from man (Ish) but why is man called Aish (fire)?
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