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bentzsur -> seriously (6/8/2008 9:28:03 AM)
why do most ministers stay away from the torah, unless they want you tithe. why focus on what Paul say's about the law(works) and avoid James in his view of this same issue.

BibleL7 -> RE: seriously (6/8/2008 9:51:54 AM)
Part could be that many are told "This is a NEW TESTIMENT CHURCH" all they want to preach is Jesus is love it is very popular. Many brag on and live by the Romans road and many preachers only seem to know of the NT. Unless they come from a church that goes through entire Bible many don't do much on OT. Oh and as for tithes I usually only used Malachi on that. However I most enjoyed going into Genesis chapter by chapter had not gotten much further when church moved. Many churches and particularly main denoms only want to concentrate on Jesus and Paul the apostle to gentiles. Personally I first read the Bible cover to cover not starting with John then Paul's epistles which is how most said I should. Of course some seem to forget that Paul and the other 12 Apostles taught using the OT. The Law and Prophets. The sermon I preached when I was licensed was on the crucifixion using only one verse from Gospel that pointed right to Psalms and taught on that. I think it is wonderful to uncover all the places that the messiah is told of in OT. However from most seminary people and many preachers it is all Paul's epistles and the Gospels for the OT is past away. Is a shame in my opinion as well, I meet so many who have no clue about much of the laws given to Israel or many of the best stories of Gods love in the Hebrew Scriptures.

rcjames -> RE: seriously (6/8/2008 4:11:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BibleL7 The sermon I preached when I was licensed was on the crucifixion using only one verse from Gospel that pointed right to Psalms and taught on that. And that is the only sermon you preached while liscensed? Does that mean you are not liscensed anymore? Go figure. Thanks RC

pstrdebi -> RE: seriously (6/8/2008 5:52:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bentzsur why do most ministers stay away from the torah, unless they want you tithe. why focus on what Paul say's about the law(works) and avoid James in his view of this same issue. We (my husband and I) teach on the entire Word of God... from Genesis to Revelation and all points in between. As far as we're concerned, you cannot have the NT without the OT. It is the basis... the history of everything we know. It is the genealogy and blood line of Jesus Christ. There are so many valuable lessons and teachings in both the Old and New Testaments... I just can't imagine never learning of Father Abraham... or Ruth and Boaz... The Psalms of David and the wisdom of Solomon. We would be missing so, so much. Also in Duet. 4:2, Prov. 30:6, and Rev. 22:18-19... we are warned not to add to/or take away from (this) book. Many will argue that Those directions are specifically for the book of Revelation or the Ten Commandments. However I choose to believe that "God's Word is pure..." and "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Tim 3: 16-17) Besides, how can you not teach the prophesies of the OT... in light of where we are (in history... ie: end times) today. And so much of the prophesies were pointing to and ushering in the birth, work, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Oh yes... we must teach the Old Testament along with the New. [:)] Pastor Debi

Bro_Shane -> RE: seriously (6/9/2008 12:05:37 AM)
Sorry, but this has not been my experience.

Consecrated2God -> RE: seriously (6/9/2008 7:46:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bentzsur why do most ministers stay away from the torah, unless they want you tithe. why focus on what Paul say's about the law(works) and avoid James in his view of this same issue. How would you know what most ministers do?

Doc65 -> RE: seriously (6/9/2008 9:25:01 AM)
quote: Many churches and particularly main denoms only want to concentrate on Jesus and Paul the apostle to gentiles. How can a pastor teach and proclaim the Word of God and Christ without preaching on the OT? quote: However from most seminary people and many preachers it is all Paul's epistles and the Gospels for the OT is past away. Don't know what seminaries you are referring to but the one I attend points out that you cannot even begin to adequately proclaim the Gospel without the OT. One of the profs has a favorite phrase which sums it up quite nicely: "All theology is Christology; all scripture is Christology." To fail to preach the OT is to fail to teach the whole of the Word Incarnate...[>:]

rcjames -> RE: seriously (6/9/2008 10:46:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Doc65 How can a pastor teach and proclaim the Word of God and Christ without preaching on the OT? I use both, but more often use the NT. But the Gospel can be well acclaimed using the NT only, it is quite sufficient. Most OT teaching it to try and prove or to point out that Jesus was being spoken of there, and to understand that fact is not necessary for one to Believe in Christ. It would be more pertinant if the one being taught was Jewish. Thanks RC

colliefan -> RE: seriously (6/9/2008 10:55:33 AM)
2 Tim 3:16 - 17 (NASB) All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. I believe this includes the OT.

seagullplayer -> RE: seriously (6/9/2008 1:00:22 PM)
"most ministers” That is a pretty broad brush. How many Churches do you attend each week?[:D]

earthless -> RE: seriously (6/11/2008 4:59:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seagullplayer "most ministers” That is a pretty broad brush. How many Churches do you attend each week?[:D] Good questions... I was wondering if he was the odd fellow in the fifth row right Sunday morning when I was preaching... now that I come to think about it.. he was giving me the googily eye. [8D]

BibleL7 -> RE: seriously (6/12/2008 3:14:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: BibleL7 The sermon I preached when I was licensed was on the crucifixion using only one verse from Gospel that pointed right to Psalms and taught on that. And that is the only sermon you preached while liscensed? Does that mean you are not liscensed anymore? Go figure. Thanks RC No not the only sermon just the one I preached the day I was licensed. The cerimony was at a sister church and the pastors decided to license me at the time of the usual sermon and had me preach the sermon. I have since heard that this is not usual practice. I have preached many sermons before and since that day. As to the second part No I am not currently licensed as I stepped down as I stated in another thread.

Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: seriously (6/12/2008 12:40:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bentzsur why do most ministers stay away from the torah, unless they want you tithe. why focus on what Paul say's about the law(works) and avoid James in his view of this same issue. Most of the time, such questions are only asked in order to provoke. As a Messianic believer, this reason for asking embarrasses me. What was your reason?

jn1010lf -> RE: seriously (6/12/2008 9:59:19 PM)
Hello bentzsur It helps, in my opinion, to study and preach the OT because everything is a type of Christ, a partial of the complete unfolding of the NT. God's blueprint for life is outlined in the Ten Commandments but the power to live them comes when Christ lives in us. It also helps to study the OT to see that Christ, the Messiah, was with the Father in the Creation. That's why Jesus could say that "Before Abraham was born, I AM. I suppose may preachers avoid the OT because there are groups that call themselve Messianic. These folds think that being Jewish is next to God and that our roots in Jewish. But they don't understand that Christ, the Messiah, was the great I AM before there were Jews on the earth. In fact, Abraham was not a Jew, even though he is thought of as being the father of the Jews.

teachered -> RE: seriously (6/12/2008 11:06:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jn1010lf Hello bentzsur It helps, in my opinion, to study and preach the OT because everything is a type of Christ, a partial of the complete unfolding of the NT. God's blueprint for life is outlined in the Ten Commandments but the power to live them comes when Christ lives in us. It also helps to study the OT to see that Christ, the Messiah, was with the Father in the Creation. That's why Jesus could say that "Before Abraham was born, I AM. I suppose may preachers avoid the OT because there are groups that call themselve Messianic. These folds think that being Jewish is next to God and that our roots in Jewish. But they don't understand that Christ, the Messiah, was the great I AM before there were Jews on the earth. In fact, Abraham was not a Jew, even though he is thought of as being the father of the Jews. What do you mean by the first sentence in your last paragraph? I do not think that is why many preachers avoid the OT, I think that they skip over it because of ignorance. They do not know their roots. Are you saying that there is no such thing as a Messianic Jew? I have been in church all of my life, however I did not accept Christ as my Savior untill 1997. It wasn't until 4 years ago that I learned that Jesus was a Jew. The just don't teach you that from most pulipits. Many "Christians" don't even know what the Torah is. I didn't until about 4 years ago. Yes, our Savior is a Jew & he did not intend for us "Chrisitans, Catholic's, Messianic Jews, or whatever you call yourself" to take the place of HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE, THE JEWS. We Gentiles, were grafted in. There is so much sound teaching in the Torah (the first 5 books of the bible, for those of you who do not know what the Torah is). We do need to learn about our roots. Shalom my friend!

Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: seriously (6/13/2008 12:48:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jn1010lf Hello bentzsur It helps, in my opinion, to study and preach the OT because everything is a type of Christ, a partial of the complete unfolding of the NT. God's blueprint for life is outlined in the Ten Commandments but the power to live them comes when Christ lives in us. It also helps to study the OT to see that Christ, the Messiah, was with the Father in the Creation. That's why Jesus could say that "Before Abraham was born, I AM. I suppose may preachers avoid the OT because there are groups that call themselve Messianic. These folds think that being Jewish is next to God and that our roots in Jewish. But they don't understand that Christ, the Messiah, was the great I AM before there were Jews on the earth. In fact, Abraham was not a Jew, even though he is thought of as being the father of the Jews. I don't know what the churches do, because I only see the inside of a church when I go to work or that once-a-year-or-so that I attend a service for whatever reason. However, you have made some interesting statements regarding Messianics. I take it you attend Messianic services somewhere, where this kind of stuff goes on? If not, you are sorely mistaken, and what you have written here is not true. I have known Bentzsur to be a good person in the past, not one to create havoc, especially where it is unwarranted, so why don't we wait and find out Bentzsur's reasoning for this thread? I had asked Bentzsur to explain so that we won't go down another false "Messianics do this," "Messianics do that," and I am sure Bentzsur will answer.

bentzsur -> RE: seriously (11/29/2008 2:45:09 AM)
this is not to provoke but to envoke questions and questions. no i have not attended every church and yes it is a broad brush. i suppose this offended those who brought it up and i do not apologize. if simply asking question makes one bring messiancs or any other group serves only to avoid the question. from my own experiences at different churches it was not taught except for ten teachings(commandment) and also by conversing with others who attend different churches, by what i seen on television and heard on the air. again this is not most but since two chose to nicpick and dodge that's cool. this is about the truth not who's right or wrong my friends

earthless -> RE: seriously (11/29/2008 8:25:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bentzsur what i seen on television and heard on the air. No wonder.. Friend, do know that, sadly, the majority of what is on "Christian" TV and radio is not that.

RJR_fan -> RE: seriously (12/5/2008 9:06:11 PM)
quote: why do most ministers stay away from the torah, unless they want you tithe. why focus on what Paul say's about the law(works) and avoid James in his view of this same issue. Well, the most virile trend in Reformed theology takes Torah very seriously. God's Law is His model for civic order, and "happy is that nation whose God is the Lord." God's Law is NOT "what God believed before He evolved to our level of sophistication," or "God's Word, Emeritus." And let's not EVEN follow Marcion, and many Baptist preachers, who set God's Law at enmity with His Grace! At least Marcion was consistent enough to explain this alleged hostility by imagining two warring deities -- the evil, mean, nasty, legalistic, and materialist YVYH of the Old Testament, and the sweet, spiritual, loving, gracious Jesus of the New Testament. Francis Shaeffer wrote a book with the intriguing title How Shall We Then Live? and never answered the question. He was not a theonomist, you see, and had no practical answers. His eschatology crippled his ministry. Theonomy -- the assertion that God is the Great I Am, not the Great I Was.

lightshineon -> RE: seriously (12/6/2008 8:53:02 AM)
Help me here, is the Torah the first five books of the Bible? I might be wrong so feel free to correct me on this one. The old testement is great, but Jesus came and established a new covenent. If we live by the law then we have a chance to fall from grace according to the word. Jesus came and fufilled the law. I think many people misunderstand the book of James in context also.

RJR_fan -> RE: seriously (12/6/2008 4:11:04 PM)
quote: If we live by the law then we have a chance to fall from grace according to the word. You're right. God's law is depressing, isn't it? Wouldn't it be more spiritual to practice a community of goods? How about a community of wives? Hey, after all, "we're not under law any more, we're people of grace!" And my neighbor should graciously permit my use of his goods and his wife! After all, God's standards are irrelevant in this dispensation, right?

Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: seriously (12/6/2008 7:03:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lightshineon Help me here, is the Torah the first five books of the Bible? I might be wrong so feel free to correct me on this one. The old testement is great, but Jesus came and established a new covenant. If we live by the law then we have a chance to fall from grace according to the word. Jesus came and fufilled the law. I think many people misunderstand the book of James in context also. Depending upon the intentions of a writer/speaker, Torah is the term commonly used for the first five books and/or for the whole of Scriptures written previous to the Apostolic Scriptures. Lightshine, it is the opinion of most churches that Messiah came to establish a different covenant, but for those who study the Covenant, they find that there is one Covenant, completely predicated upon the previous parts, and that the new covenant, as all the rest of its parts, is also predicated on the rest of its parts. The New Covenant, while it is a continuation of what was already written, is new because it is the Torah written upon the hearts of those who embrace it. The New Covenant, if you will read in Jeremiah, is a promise to Judah and Israel. G-d never made covenant with anyone else. This is something that needs to be read with open eyes and open hearts, explored, and understood. Questions need to be asked. Regarding living by the Torah, which better translated is Instruction, not Law as commonly thought, no, doing Torah does not bring more of a "chance to fall from grace." Not at all! Paul says that Torah is good, that it is holy! He never says stop doing Torah. The problem is with people who think that doing Torah will save them or make them holier or make them a special person -- whether in the eyes of others or in the eyes of G-d. NO! Double NO -- NO! Doing Torah will not save, because if it did, G-0d is a cruel, mean Father who let His only begotten Son die for nothing! Trying to live by Torah alone, without faith in Messiah, is what keeps people from the Truth -- and we know Who the Truth is. When you wrote that "Jesus came and fufilled the law," what was intended? Many people teach that He came and did it so that we won't have to. This would, then, be also proclaiming Paul to be wrong to proclaim himself a good Jew and a Pharisee who kept the commands, and the apostles were wrong to tell him in Acts to prove to everyone that he followed Torah by demonstrating it with the young men. It would be to say that Messiah was wrong to say ""Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" and "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." And in Titus, "keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ." And in 1 John, "The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."

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