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Donnaym -> living together (6/8/2008 6:35:31 PM)

Is it alright to live with someone of the opposite sex to save on expenses as long as you are not having sex together? Donna



Kat_D -> RE: living together (6/8/2008 6:44:39 PM)

If you are a Christian it's not O.K. The Bible tells us to abstain from even the appearance of evil. Living with someone of the opposite sex is an appearance of evil as it could be misinterpreted as having a sexual relationship out of wedlock and could very well ruin your testimony and stumble others.



fist.sensei -> RE: living together (6/8/2008 7:02:46 PM)

If it is a platonic relationship then there is nothing wrong with it.

You can use that "appearance of evil" line all day long and apply it to everything under the sun but it doesn't mean you are using it in context.



deermousie -> RE: living together (6/8/2008 7:22:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fist.sensei

If it is a platonic relationship then there is nothing wrong with it.

You can use that "appearance of evil" line all day long and apply it to everything under the sun but it doesn't mean you are using it in context.


Ask a 100 nonChristians about two people of opposite sex living together if they are having sex, and 101 will say, "Don't be stupid; sure they are." (One will come back a second time just to make sure you understood them).

So the world is to see us as an example of God's ways, since most of them will never darken the door of a church or read a Bible. When they think Christians are as morally loose as they are, then they will see God as a token name for people who are... just as morally loose and lost as they are. God is demeaned and invalidated in the eyes of people who desperately need Him, and God notices.

God tells us to not live like the world, and if a so-called brother is living in what appears to be flagrant sin, don't even eat with them but shun them. You don't have to go into an adulterers bedroom to know they look like they are sinning. Appearances are what God is talking about, because people only see the outside and not the heart (remember Samuel picking the next king of Israel from Jesse's sons?).

How we live gives a hint to what is in the heart. Are you doing everything you can to obey God and not stumble a nonChristian?



Kat_D -> RE: living together (6/8/2008 7:46:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fist.sensei

You can use that "appearance of evil" line all day long and apply it to everything under the sun but it doesn't mean you are using it in context.


You are wrong and I have taken nothing out of context:

While it does also speak of false teaching, Matthew Henry gives this exposition on the verse (I Thessalonians 5:22):

"We should therefore abstain from evil, and all appearances of evil, from sin, and that which looks like sin, leads to it, and borders upon it. He who is not shy of the appearances of sin, who shuns not the occasions of sin, and who avoids not the temptations and approaches to sin, will not long abstain from the actual commission of sin."



fist.sensei -> RE: living together (6/8/2008 8:33:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat_D
...He who is not shy of the appearances of sin, who shuns not the occasions of sin, and who avoids not the temptations and approaches to sin, will not long abstain from the actual commission of sin."


As you see, the verse is trying to keep you away from sin, and telling you to stay far away from it so that you won't be tempted into it.

Having an opposite-sex roommate does not lead into having sex with said roommate.



fist.sensei -> RE: living together (6/8/2008 8:36:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deermousie
Ask a 100 nonChristians about two people of opposite sex living together if they are having sex, and 101 will say, "Don't be stupid; sure they are." (One will come back a second time just to make sure you understood them).


Can you please link to or advise me of where you are getting your statistical information? Because to be blunt, you are full of it. Gender has nothing to do with sex when it comes to roommates.

If you are in a "relationship" in the romantic sense and try and live with that person, then yes I'm sure the assumption would be that you are having sex.



Kat_D -> RE: living together (6/8/2008 8:54:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fist.sensei

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat_D
...He who is not shy of the appearances of sin, who shuns not the occasions of sin, and who avoids not the temptations and approaches to sin, will not long abstain from the actual commission of sin."


As you see, the verse is trying to keep you away from sin, and telling you to stay far away from it so that you won't be tempted into it.

Having an opposite-sex roommate does not lead into having sex with said roommate.


First of all, I don't like how you spoke to Deermousie. Around here we don't tell people they're full of it. That is an ugly thing for one Christian to say to another...actually it's an ugly thing for anyone to say to anyone.

Secondly, read the commentary again. You apparently don't get what Henry said the verse means.



fist.sensei -> RE: living together (6/8/2008 9:02:45 PM)

I think it is an "ugly thing" for people to take social and cultural standards and elevate them to the level of "christian living", calling it sin if you don't conform to what they think is "acceptable".

Even up to 20 years ago it would've been the "appearance of evil" for a white person to date a black person. Do you agree that it should've been abstained from based on your "appearance" line of thought?

Do you have a career? Because 40 years ago it would've been "sinful" for a woman to work outside the home. Again do you concur with that line of thought?

So if we are talking about "ugly things" I think foremost on the list should be applying cultural and social standards to religion, and foresaking the true point of religion.

If people were looking at the "log in their own eye" they wouldn't focus on the apparent "evil" of other people's lives, and come up with list after list of "you can't do this" that has nothing to do with the bible other than one of a handful of overused, out-of-context catch-all phrases.



Kat_D -> RE: living together (6/8/2008 9:06:54 PM)

quote:

Do you have a career?


Yes, I'm a Biblical Counselor.



fist.sensei -> RE: living together (6/8/2008 9:27:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat_D

quote:

Do you have a career?


Yes, I'm a Biblical Counselor.


That question was hypothetical unless answered in the context of the line of thought.

I'm also not sure what your being a counselor has to do with this theological debate...?



SovereignIsHe -> RE: living together (6/8/2008 10:00:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat_D

If you are a Christian it's not O.K. The Bible tells us to abstain from even the appearance of evil. Living with someone of the opposite sex is an appearance of evil as it could be misinterpreted as having a sexual relationship out of wedlock and could very well ruin your testimony and stumble others.


So two Christian guys or gals living together in the Bay Area would be considered giving off the appearance of evil?

John



fist.sensei -> RE: living together (6/8/2008 10:39:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
So two Christian guys or gals living together in the Bay Area would be considered giving off the appearance of evil?
John


Under the logic of their argument, my rooming with a lesbian was fine... right? I mean if it is about sex then that should give the "appearance" of being fine.

I'll have to find the verses in the bible that speak against assuming simply from "appearances".



mikejonesoftn -> RE: living together (6/8/2008 10:41:56 PM)

Ok, I am confused. Many things would be considered "giving" off the appearance of evil? Even when trying, to some people that would be impossible.
I was always lived as "Don't worry about what people think of you, as long as you are like how God wants you too" (For a lack of better phrase). But even living like so now days and definitely before now would appear to be evil. Jesus appeared Evil to some.

^ I hope that is still on topic.



Bro_Shane -> RE: living together (6/8/2008 11:52:10 PM)

OK, I think something people are not focusing on here is something that is quite simple. If you put a man in close proximity to a woman where they are alone for extended periods of time, even if there is no initial attraction, the man will at least think about having a physical relationship. All this talk about "platonic" relationships may seem on the up and up for women, but for heterosexual men that still have a modicum or hormonal drive it is nonsense. Men desire women.

And, yes, if two people of the same sex live in an area populated by a large homosexual community, the same standard would apply.

Men are pigs, dogs, and apt to wallow in the flesh at the first chance they get. It's part of our fallen nature.

Now I would wonder why a Christian woman would care so little about her purity, phyiscal or otherwise, as to give the impression (intended or not) that she is not striving to be or remain pure. Is saving a few bucks worth it?



4IMPersuaded -> RE: living together (6/8/2008 11:58:45 PM)

My parents didn't allow my boyfriend into the house when I was home alone when we were dating because of what the neighbors would think-- a good idea, but there were a lot more valid reasons for this practice, such as the temptation for actual sin. Conversly, I had a friend that lived platonically with her fiance for this very reason in the months before their wedding. Call me naive, but I truly beleive that they were not sexually intimate during that time.

You can get really bogged down when you live your life so as not to be a stumbling block for others. We can get crazy trying to avoid the appearance of evil. In the end, you have to account for your own actions, so living your life in constant prayer and seeking God's will in the Word is the only litmus test. Paul also is the one who said all things are allowable for me, but not all things are a good idea (forgive my own paraphrase). He said that he was a Gentile with the Gentiles, a Jew with the Jews. We live in grace, but you have to decide if your choice is first going to undermine your relationship with God, then if your choice is going to undermine your testimony. If both answers are "no", then you do what you feel is right.

Finally, I spoke on the subject of holiness recently. I was really taken aback by the overwhelming link beween holiness (being set apart for the Lord) and the requirement to be free from sexual immorality. You are called to a Holy Priesthood, so you are charged to act thus in Christ. Ultimately, it is your faithwalk.



car2ner -> RE: living together (6/9/2008 5:29:13 AM)

On a more light hearted note, why would any woman want to clean up after a guy she isn't even married to? Granted, slobs come in all shapes and sizes but you know what I mean. [;)]



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: living together (6/9/2008 7:50:19 AM)

quote:

Call me naive, but I truly beleive that they were not sexually intimate during that time.


Here's a problem. If they were truly and utterly abstinent while living together and sharing a life together, what was wrong with them??? [&:]

I don't think most human being are asexual. If you live with someone and share a life with someone and love them deeply, you are going to want to share sexual intimacy with them, and when living together there is no getting away from temptation. There is also more to intimacy than just sex, when you bring your lives together, share every detail together, brush your teeth together, and cuddle on the couch in pajamas together, that's intimacy as well, and it should be saved for marriage.

And beyond that, if they're living together already, why *not* get married?



my2cents -> RE: living together (6/9/2008 8:42:01 AM)

quote:

Is it alright to live with someone of the opposite sex to save on expenses as long as you are not having sex together? Donna


quote:

If you are a Christian it's not O.K. The Bible tells us to abstain from even the appearance of evil. Living with someone of the opposite sex is an appearance of evil as it could be misinterpreted as having a sexual relationship out of wedlock and could very well ruin your testimony and stumble others.


quote:

Ask a 100 nonChristians about two people of opposite sex living together if they are having sex, and 101 will say, "Don't be stupid; sure they are." (One will come back a second time just to make sure you understood them).


What if they are brother and sister? Are we to assume an incestous relationship?

This "appearance of evil" thing can easily be carried to such extremes that Christians would be paralyzed in day to day living.



fist.sensei -> RE: living together (6/9/2008 9:03:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
OK, I think something people are not focusing on here is something that is quite simple. If you put a man in close proximity to a woman where they are alone for extended periods of time, even if there is no initial attraction, the man will at least think about having a physical relationship. All this talk about "platonic" relationships may seem on the up and up for women, but for heterosexual men that still have a modicum or hormonal drive it is nonsense. Men desire women.


I guess it isn't the case for you, but I don't want to sleep with every woman I meet. Physically my hormone levels are where they should be (according to my last physical). Perhaps for men who can't segregate "women" from "sex", but I feel sorry for someone who can't do that and experience the wonderful friends that women make.

quote:


And, yes, if two people of the same sex live in an area populated by a large homosexual community, the same standard would apply.


So now we are letting "secular" standards apply to "christian" ethics? And what is somebody in these areas supposed to do? Do you realize you've now condemned them either way?

quote:


Men are pigs, dogs, and apt to wallow in the flesh at the first chance they get. It's part of our fallen nature.


Perhaps you think of yourself as such, but I know very different of "men" in general. And if this statement were true, then every marriage would be apt to infidelity, and every man a fornicator because there are plenty of chances for every man to "wallow in the flesh".

quote:


Now I would wonder why a Christian woman would care so little about her purity, phyiscal or otherwise, as to give the impression (intended or not) that she is not striving to be or remain pure. Is saving a few bucks worth it?


What is all this speak about "impression"? Since when did the "christian" community start caring so much about "impression"? I wonder how far Jesus would've gotten worrying about "impression". Do you happen to remember that the "religious" types of the time spoke so loudly about his "sinfulness"?



Kat_D -> RE: living together (6/9/2008 10:36:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane

OK, I think something people are not focusing on here is something that is quite simple. If you put a man in close proximity to a woman where they are alone for extended periods of time, even if there is no initial attraction, the man will at least think about having a physical relationship. All this talk about "platonic" relationships may seem on the up and up for women, but for heterosexual men that still have a modicum or hormonal drive it is nonsense. Men desire women.


I brought it up, Shane. I made that point when I quoted Matthew Henry's exposition of the verse (I Thess. 5):

"We should therefore abstain from evil, and all appearances of evil, from sin, and that which looks like sin, leads to it, and borders upon it. He who is not shy of the appearances of sin, who shuns not the occasions of sin, and who avoids not the temptations and approaches to sin, will not long abstain from the actual commission of sin."



mch3172 -> RE: living together (6/9/2008 10:40:39 AM)

A sadly neglected aspect of biblical living in today's Christian culture is godly wisdom. One thing I would ask those who are quick to give the ok to unrelated, hetereosexual members of the opposite sex to live together would be to go beyond the proof-texting and ask, is it wise? Especially ina university situation, with the help provided by campus ministries as well as churches, it is easy enough to use networks to seek a Christian roomate of the same sex, and avoid unnecessary temptation and the appearance of wrongdoing, so why even take the chance?

quote:


Men are pigs, dogs, and apt to wallow in the flesh at the first chance they get. It's part of our fallen nature.


Perhaps you think of yourself as such, but I know very different of "men" in general. And if this statement were true, then every marriage would be apt to infidelity, and every man a fornicator because there are plenty of chances for every man to "wallow in the flesh".

Indeed, we are all apt to sin. That's why "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil," is in the model prayer. The embarassing and tragic incidents of Christian workers and spiritual leaders falling into sexual sin because they thought it couldn't happen to them and failed to take wise precautions proves that indeed any of us does have this capacity. If David was capable of it, it would be hubris to assume I'm not.



fist.sensei -> RE: living together (6/9/2008 10:41:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat_D
I brought it up, Shane. I made that point when I quoted Matthew Henry's exposition of the verse (I Thess. 5):

"We should therefore abstain from evil, and all appearances of evil, from sin, and that which looks like sin, leads to it, and borders upon it. He who is not shy of the appearances of sin, who shuns not the occasions of sin, and who avoids not the temptations and approaches to sin, will not long abstain from the actual commission of sin."


And I already refuted it, and you ignore further posts of mine because they are contrary to your own "logic".



mch3172 -> RE: living together (6/9/2008 10:45:44 AM)

My apologies for some confusion in my last post, since I had never used the quote function before. The second to last paragraph is quoted material from "fist.sensei" but appeared as my own writing rather than in a box. The last paragraph is my response. Blame it on my computer illiteracy as a former Luddite!



fist.sensei -> RE: living together (6/9/2008 10:46:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mch3172
Indeed, we are all apt to sin. That's why "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil," is in the model prayer. The embarassing and tragic incidents of Christian workers and spiritual leaders falling into sexual sin because they thought it couldn't happen to them and failed to take wise precautions proves that indeed any of us does have this capacity. If David was capable of it, it would be hubris to assume I'm not.


You completely miss my point. Just because somebody happens to be female, does not mean that every male on earth wants to sleep with them.

I would not ask somebody that I am emotionally and physically attracted to to be my roommate thinking that we would not be tempted into sex.

However, I would ask somebody who I know through several friends and has a good reputation. I don't care what gender they are, as long as they aren't messy and pay the bills on time.



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