RE: Dying To Self (Full Version)

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Liveloved -> RE: Dying To Self (6/15/2008 4:43:17 PM)

And we continue on:

When you are content with any food, any offering,
any raiment, any climate, any society, any solitude,
any interruption by the will of God. . .
that is dying to self.



Liveloved -> RE: Dying To Self (6/15/2008 4:55:02 PM)

I really didn't want this to be a doctrinal discussion of who believes what. I wanted this to be a discussion about the specific thoughts the writer is sharing and OUR EXPERIENCE with these various things. So I'll speak to the thoughts I just posted above.

I wish I could say I am content with any food. I am not. This first one cuts me where it really hurts. I love food, love to cook and love to eat good food. There is nothing I enjoy more (in terms of earthly pleasures) than figuring out and creating a wonderful dinner each night for my husband and myself. . . and then, of course, enjoying it as we share it together.

I enjoy all the spices and flavors this world offers and I thank God for all the variety available to us. I know the Lord has given us all things to enjoy.

So, although I do not content myself with 'any' food, I think if I had to be, I could.

But the list goes on. . .offering, raiment, climate, society (people who smell bad I have trouble contenting myself with), solitude, interruption (like telephone solicitors?). . . your thoughts?



drmark -> RE: Dying To Self (6/15/2008 5:08:51 PM)

quote:

I really didn't want this to be a doctrinal discussion of who believes what.
I apologize, Liveloved, for my part in "doctrinalizing" this thread. The concept of "dying to self" is critical to Holiness doctrine and I should have realized from the author you are quoting that your emphasis might be different than mine. I hope all who post here will come to know what it means to die to self through the cleansing, purifying, and perfecting grace and power of the Holy Spirit.



Liveloved -> RE: Dying To Self (6/15/2008 7:03:38 PM)

quote:

I apologize, Liveloved, for my part in "doctrinalizing" this thread. The concept of "dying to self" is critical to Holiness doctrine and I should have realized from the author you are quoting that your emphasis might be different than mine. I hope all who post here will come to know what it means to die to self through the cleansing, purifying, and perfecting grace and power of the Holy Spirit.


Thanks, drmark. It is an easy thing to do---probably because it takes the emphasis off of ME and puts it on something I can hold at arm's length. But no matter what our doctrinal orientation, and I am pretty clueless about that as I am taught by the Holy Spirit and am not a part of any denomination, etc, I think we always need to hear what the Spirit is saying to us, to our hearts and personally apply what we are learning. Or perhaps better put, let Him apply it and do the correcting, cutting, etc.

Anyway, I appreciate your sensitivity and your participation. So does this mean that you are no longer dying to self, that that is something that is accomplished in you and no longer ongoing? (I am not trying to open another doctrinal can of worms so if you can answer personally from your experience, please do.)[:)]



drmark -> RE: Dying To Self (6/15/2008 8:29:49 PM)

Well, without getting too doctrinal [8|], death is generally a one time event. If one believes (as I do) that the carnal nature, sinful flesh, old man (or whatever terminology is preferred) is crucified in the crisis event of entire sanctification by the cleansing power of the Holy Spirit, then one lives out holiness in daily submission to His Lordship, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. This would involve daily denial of self as we are empowered by Christ's Love living fully in our hearts. Thus, entire sanctification is both a crisis experience and an ongoing maturational process. This concept is supported by my doctrinal tradition and my personal experience. It is NOT the only doctrine or experience which may result in holy living.



kingdust -> RE: Dying To Self (6/16/2008 8:16:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

Well, without getting too doctrinal [8|], death is generally a one time event.


Life and death- I think there are more to it than the simple word meaning.

After eating the death fruit from the forbidden tree, Adam lived more than 900 years as a dead person according to the death sentence given in the statement of 'you shall die when you eat the fruit'.

People are to be born dead, but still live up to so many years after the 'born dead' event.

At the baptism, the old self, the born dead, is to be crucified and no more.
are the Baptist church full of saint without the old self?

Why do we have to struggle day in and day out in our Christian life?

After born again, are we free from the good old self?

As for me, when I born again, if I can claim that according to what I believe, I get to see more clearly the good old self live and kicking than before.
Now, I can't help but confess that my good old self is the enemy of God, self being the very center of my life, like the source of life, truth, way, value, purpose, desire, plan, etc. etc.

If God alone is to be the source of the life, that is, the way, the truth and everything a life needs, my own well of life is to be sealed up in order to have only one well to drink from.

Don't I still have my own plan for my own life?
Don't I wish to have it come true?
But, if it is from I, me and myself, it can only be my life of my way and truth, not of God's.

How can you say you don't live your life but His life 24/7?



growingseed -> RE: Dying To Self (6/16/2008 8:34:09 AM)

In learning who Jesus is and how he fits into me is a life time experience. The dimensions of spirit are beyond my sight, and there are things better by the spirit and then are in the flesh. But growth is the response of the spirit to manifest it in your walk, and not a talk and pony show. As i am learning more to seperate myself from me and grow more in him there are sights and blessings that help me move forwarded, and i will fall but won't be condemned. From experiencing life through my dark days and understand how it feels to give yourself to the world, and now i want to give that same effort to the Lord.



drmark -> RE: Dying To Self (6/16/2008 8:37:36 AM)

quote:

Why do we have to struggle day in and day out in our Christian life?

After born again, are we free from the good old self?
My answers to these questions require "doctrinal" discussion. I've promised Liveloved that I will not clutter her thread with this.

quote:

How can you say you don't live your life but His life 24/7?
This one is easy, kingdust - by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit! Galatians 2:20



URForgiven -> RE: Dying To Self (6/16/2008 10:08:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

And we continue on:

When you are content with any food, any offering,
any raiment, any climate, any society, any solitude,
any interruption by the will of God. . .
that is dying to self.



Being content, as the Apostle Paul says, is something we learn. I can honestly say that as I mature physically and spiritually, I am learning to be content in all things. I can also honestly say that as the description above points out...I still have a looong way to go.

As I learn just how true and loving and capable Christ is, as I learn how much better God's way is, it releases me from my need to be in control and my need to have my way. This is true freedom, and it runs contrary to mans wisdom, and it runs contrary to all the ingrained patterns of thinking and behavior of my 'old man'.

Paul says he learned "the secret" to being content, and the secret was Jesus Christ...

"Not that I am implying that I was in any personal want, for I have learned how to be content (satisfied to the point where I am not disturbed or disquieted) in whatever state I am.

I know how to be abased and live humbly in straitened circumstances, and I know also how to enjoy plenty and live in abundance. I have learned in any and all circumstances the secret of facing every situation, whether well-fed or going hungry, having a sufficiency and enough to spare or going without and being in want.

I have strength for all things in Christ Who empowers me [I am ready for anything and equal to anything through Him Who infuses inner strength into me; I am self-sufficient in Christ's sufficiency]." Philippians 4:11-13 (amp)

Christ is the origin of all our strength and the source of all that is 'Christian' about us. We are sufficient in His sufficiency. Understanding that it is Christ's sufficiency that is the secret to a contented Christian life, frees me from self-effort, to trust and depend totally on He who is sufficient.

Thank you Jesus.

Peace



Liveloved -> RE: Dying To Self (6/16/2008 12:00:15 PM)

Thanks, kingdust, for your questions. I have them too. But also, thank you, drmark, for not going down the doctrinal path that often leads away from application and keeps discussion away from the self---and that is the very point of this thread.

And thank you, URForgiven, for your insightful comments on this portion of the dying to self post. Your expounding on the passage where Paul says he has learned to be content in any and all circumstances has been very helpful for me.

My bent is to beat myself up. So while I am enjoying good food, cooking, etc. I can take these thoughts on "content with any food, any offering" and use them to wound me rather than being content and enjoying the place God has placed me (at this time) in which I can and do enjoy a wonderful diet and great variety of foods and the ability to prepare them.

This is the beauty of the body of Christ and our need to talk these things out with one another. My bent is to beat myself up so I need others, like my husband, to take the stick out of my hand or remind me of what I am doing---which your post did. Thank you.

Right now I am well fed. That is Christ's sufficiency for me today. And tomorrow, if I am hungry, He will be sufficient for me then as well. Thank You, Jesus.



drmark -> RE: Dying To Self (6/16/2008 3:47:29 PM)

quote:

But also, thank you, drmark, for not going down the doctrinal path that often leads away from application and keeps discussion away from the self---and that is the very point of this thread.
Well, I have one last comment before I take "doctrine" to another thread. True Bible-based doctrine will never lead away from proper application, Indeed, it encourages holy living and daily growth in Christian perfection. In my humble observation, those who minimize the importance of "doctrine" and make efforts to separate themselves from denominations are often the ones who end up with nothing more than self-centered theology because they have no accountability to any doctrinal tradition. Please remember, I'm not accusing anyone specifically, just noting a rather common attitude on these Theology forums.



Butterflytearz -> RE: Dying To Self (6/17/2008 4:42:54 PM)

quote:

When you are content with any food, any offering,
any raiment, any climate, any society, any solitude,
any interruption by the will of God. . .
that is dying to self.


sheesh,,, sometimes dying can be slow and painful , can't it?[&:]



Liveloved -> RE: Dying To Self (6/17/2008 6:28:34 PM)

quote:

True Bible-based doctrine will never lead away from proper application,


While I think I know what you mean, I would say Jesus will never lead away from proper application. I've seen many who would consider themselves quite authoritative on Bible-based doctrine but they do not have the life of Jesus. The Pharisees were such. And it continues.

God's word is precious to me but apart from the life of the Spirit, it is death. I've seen much killing done with it.

And I don't think I was speaking specifically to you, drmark. I was just trying to direct ALL of us back to my original intent. It is just so easy to speak in generalities and theological ideas rather than from our own experience. You'd asked some good questions of others and that is a good way of getting people to share from their life experience. So I appreciate that. Please don't think I'm discouraging your participation. I did not have that intent at all. I just wanted to encourage everyone to share more personally from their lives and how these specific thoughts relate to their every day living. So, forgive me if I gave you a wrong impression. I really did and do appreciate hearing from you.[:)] LL



drmark -> RE: Dying To Self (6/17/2008 11:04:22 PM)

quote:

I've seen many who would consider themselves quite authoritative on Bible-based doctrine but they do not have the life of Jesus. The Pharisees were such. And it continues.
This illustrates my point perfectly. All the Pharisees had were man-made doctrines of religiosity designed to impress the common masses. True Bible-based doctrine comes directly from Jesus' teachings and specifically rejects building up one's self importance which can so easily result from an over-reliance on personal experience. If you know anything about my doctrinal tradition it's that experience plays a significant role in shaping our understanding of theology, along with reason and tradition. But all of these must be subservient to the truth of God's Word and that, my dear sister, is sound doctrine!



Liveloved -> RE: Dying To Self (6/18/2008 4:29:24 AM)

quote:

This illustrates my point perfectly. All the Pharisees had were man-made doctrines of religiosity designed to impress the common masses. True Bible-based doctrine comes directly from Jesus' teachings and specifically rejects building up one's self importance which can so easily result from an over-reliance on personal experience. If you know anything about my doctrinal tradition it's that experience plays a significant role in shaping our understanding of theology, along with reason and tradition. But all of these must be subservient to the truth of God's Word and that, my dear sister, is sound doctrine!


Oh, I don't think the Pharisees were about impressing the masses. (Not that that isn't a human tendency. It is. But I don't think that is what they were about.) They truly thought they were seeking and following God.

And I agree wholeheartedly that Jesus' teachings are teachings in humility. But I think you're being way too defensive, brother. I don't know you or your doctrinal tradition. I was not in judgment of you. Nor do I want to be.

You can call it doctrine. But I call it knowing Jesus. And, yes, the word of God is precious to me because it is His revelation of Himself. And as I know Jesus more and more, He deals with me on a moment by moment basis because He is my life. He is my life experience because for me to live IS Christ. So that's what I was wanting the discussion to center on.

Perhaps you've judged me as being unsound in my doctrine? I don't know. But I also won't defend myself. Jesus knows. Bless ya![:)] LL



SonInMe1 -> RE: Dying To Self (6/18/2008 8:06:09 AM)

Maybe just a few syllables were left out...

Dieing to self...ishness.



Liveloved -> RE: Dying To Self (6/18/2008 9:47:10 AM)

quote:

Dieing to self...ishness.


That's pretty much what 'me' is all about.

Glad you took up the hammer and hit it on the head---if only dying were that easy.[sm=smile-l.gif]



Liveloved -> RE: Dying To Self (6/18/2008 9:49:48 AM)

And more:

When you never care to refer to yourself in conversation,
or to record your own good works, or itch after commendation,
or hope for even a little recognition,
when you can truly love to be unknown. . .
that is dying to self.



kingdust -> RE: Dying To Self (6/18/2008 10:16:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Butterflytearz

quote:

When you are content with any food, any offering,
any raiment, any climate, any society, any solitude,
any interruption by the will of God. . .
that is dying to self.


sheesh,,, sometimes dying can be slow and painful , can't it?[&:]


It is not like a cool day picnic, but a bloody life and death battle, either for my life or His life to be lived.



URForgiven -> RE: Dying To Self (6/18/2008 10:50:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

And more:

When you never care to refer to yourself in conversation,
or to record your own good works, or itch after commendation,
or hope for even a little recognition,
when you can truly love to be unknown. . .
that is dying to self.


...and isn't it odd that in the western world, where so many claim to be Christians, these are the qualities we consider to be negative.

It is one quality of the eastern culture that I have always admired, the respect for the humble, the lifting up of the peaceful person, the esteem given to those who have not necessarily achieved...but have endured in quiet humility. They do not devalue the person not blessed with social gifts, but honor them. [Although this is unfortunately changing now].

I love the nuances that Christians from differing cultures bring to Christianity. It is beautiful the way the Holy Spirit weaves us all together into one body. From a myriad of backgrounds, but all sharing in one Spirit.

"But many that are first shall be last; and the last first." Mark 10:31. Amen.

Peace



SonInMe1 -> RE: Dying To Self (6/18/2008 6:53:45 PM)

Can you stand before your accusers perfectly innocent with the penalty being a torturious death and...say nothing?

...and all we face is peer pressure.

hmmm



Liveloved -> RE: Dying To Self (6/18/2008 10:58:35 PM)

Bonhoffer says:
When we have completely renounced trying to make something of ourselves,
then we completely throw ourselves into God's arms;
take His own suffering in the world seriously, rather than our own,
and keep watch with Christ in Gethsemane.
That I think is faith.
That is conversion.
And it is in this that one becomes a human being, a Christian.

More to think about.



Liveloved -> RE: Dying To Self (6/19/2008 1:24:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

And more:


When you never care to refer to yourself in conversation,
or to record your own good works, or itch after commendation,
or hope for even a little recognition,
when you can truly love to be unknown. . .
that is dying to self.


This is an area in my life that God has worked long and hard to root out of me. We are born wanting to be the center of the world and our culture reinforces our self exalting ways. But God in His love will put an end to it IF we surrender to Him.

I got a Master's degree and then taught at the university for a year. I absolutely loved teaching and intended to get my PhD at Penn State and spend my life teaching at the university level. But God had different plans for me.

He moved my husband and myself to a remote little town in rural Wisconsin. The closest university had no program in my field. So I could not pursue 'my' dream.

It ended up that my husband began a business and I worked with him for seventeen years. It was a lesson in obscurity, being a nobody. I worked in our home and to those around, I worked not at all. It was like having no job, no status, no income, no identity.

And it was hard. It was not at all what I thought my life would be. But God used my nothingness to teach me that I am a somebody to Him and that is all that truly matters.

He taught me that life is not about what I do. It's about Him and what He's done, is doing and will do.

He's taught me that men will say all manner of evil about me and misunderstand me but it is only what He says that matters. And He loves me.

He's taught me that the recognition of this life is of no value. It is only the treasures stored in heaven that have any real value.

And He's taught me that talking about Him is what life is about.

It has not been easy. It was not my choosing. It was His choosing for me. He did it all.

I Cor 1:30 says, "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus. . .". That says it all. It is all by His doing. And as Bonhoffer said, it is only when we have renounced making something of ourselves that we are able to throw ourselves into His arms and let Him make us. The praise is all His.

And being in His arms is the best place of all!



Liveloved -> RE: Dying To Self (6/21/2008 10:05:22 AM)

When you can see your own brother prosper
and have his needs met,
and can honestly rejoice with him in spirit
and feel no envy nor question God,
while your own needs are far greater and in desperate circumstances. . .
that is dying to self.


Oh, I hope others who read this will share from your life experience how God has accomplished/is accomplishing the killing of your flesh. It's so encouraging to hear about life with Him! Bless ya![:)] LL



kingdust -> RE: Dying To Self (6/24/2008 10:18:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Oh, I hope others who read this will share from your life experience how God has accomplished/is accomplishing the killing of your flesh. It's so encouraging to hear about life with Him! Bless ya![:)] LL


I got real mad, not too long ago, with all kind of righteous reasons, even to the point of 'blow all out', but somehow I was able to hear a small voice, saying, 'that is you, but not God'.

Instead of taking action, I made my flesh join the agony of my soul by refusing to eat, though not so much as 'fasting'.
I just wanted my flesh to partake my soul's pain.

When my flesh got weak from starving, I was forced to be humble, and not to take justice but compassion- when you are hungry, that is what you want.

What I learned is that when I am weak, that is, my flesh my self, the Lord becomes strong in me, being able to achieve His value and purpose, not mine.



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