RE: Stairway To Heaven (Full Version)

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rlj -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/27/2008 5:56:46 AM)

quote:

Why does everyone rip on the Black Album?! Cos of the production? Wow, great argument.


The Black album had absolute fantastic production - for a Bon Jovi album. [;)] I liked Load better because it didn't sound near as polished.



mapachito13 -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/27/2008 7:26:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DethWolf

Ok, the Black Album wasn't as good as Kill, Puppets, Ride, or Justice, but it was still heavier that anything they've done since then. Why does everyone rip on the Black Album?! Cos of the production? Wow, great argument. Any one track on there could easily eat Stairway for breakfast.


I personally liked the black album and I didn't think the production was bad. It sounded heavy and not wimpy. And I agree that Metallica like Samson lost their power when they cut their hair. They've become so money hungry and mercenary now that I can't stomach them no matter what they put out!



Rufas2000 -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/27/2008 10:03:18 AM)

quote:

They've become so money hungry and mercenary now that I can't stomach them no matter what they put out!


Yes, once the anti-mainstream band puts out a covers CD they have officially jumped the shark. Their cover of "Turn the Page" makes me wonder if they ever heard the song before.

I remember somebody asking one of them about selling out, he said "Yeah we sold out, we sell out every night". Thats both a great line and a window into what Metallica now finds important. (Hint: its not making great music).

I usually hate the term sellout (the user is usually really saying the band isn't doing what they want them to anymore) but when you run your mouth for years about the mainstream music industry and then embrace all the excess you used to talk smack about (is there a band with more product than Metallica?) then expect to be called on your hypocrisy.

And it all started with the black album, a bid to get Metallica into the mainstream by slowing the tempo, shortening some of the songs, cutting much of the aggression and removing much of the technical complexity. Load and Reload were just that. At least with St. Anger it was clear they didn't care what the mainstream thought of that one. Seven minute songs (on average) and intentional garage level production do not get you on modern rock radio for long (even if you're Metallica).

I rambled on too long in a Stairway thread about Metallica. If any of their songs belong in a discussion about greatest song of all time IMHO it would be "Fade to Black". Or "One", especially considering the current war and the amount of amputees coming home from it. But I've never been much of a Metallifan though.



humbleinspirit -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/27/2008 8:22:03 PM)

I was chatting with someone earlier, and I mentioned that Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen was a better song that Stairway To Heaven.



rlj -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/27/2008 9:09:31 PM)

quote:

And it all started with the black album, a bid to get Metallica into the mainstream by slowing the tempo, shortening some of the songs, cutting much of the aggression and removing much of the technical complexity. Load and Reload were just that. At least with St. Anger it was clear they didn't care what the mainstream thought of that one. Seven minute songs (on average) and intentional garage level production do not get you on modern rock radio for long (even if you're Metallica).


I think they sound better stripped down. I heard a bootleg of studio outtakes that had a few songs from the Black album and they were better then the release simply because they didn't go through all the remixing, re-recording, redubbing and all of those other technical terms I could care less about.



Rufas2000 -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/27/2008 10:58:03 PM)

quote:

I was chatting with someone earlier, and I mentioned that Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen was a better song that Stairway To Heaven.


And they said ... ??? [:D]

I would have said you're probably right. There's more going on in it, thats for sure. And a more developed "storyline".

quote:

I think they sound better stripped down. I heard a bootleg of studio outtakes that had a few songs from the Black album and they were better then the release simply because they didn't go through all the remixing, re-recording, redubbing and all of those other technical terms I could care less about.


Then you should love St. Anger. [:D] I'm probably off base but I suspect just as much technical wizardry went into making "St. Anger" sound so raw and unproduced as went into "The Black Album" to make it sound so clean and polished.



humbleinspirit -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/27/2008 11:00:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rufas2000

quote:

I was chatting with someone earlier, and I mentioned that Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen was a better song that Stairway To Heaven.


And they said ... ??? [:D]

I would have said you're probably right. There's more going on in it, thats for sure. And a more developed "storyline".


They said that we all have our own oppinions as to what is the best song or not.



Roberta_ -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/28/2008 3:13:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit

I was chatting with someone earlier, and I mentioned that Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen was a better song that Stairway To Heaven.


I agree!



Rufas2000 -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/28/2008 6:01:29 AM)

quote:

They said that we all have our own oppinions as to what is the best song or not.


How very diplomatic of them.



humbleinspirit -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/28/2008 6:57:23 AM)

We were discussing best songs in general and how each generation has their own oppinion as to what the best song of all time is. I then mentioned that U2's "I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For" was my personal choice of best song of all time. Not that it rises all that much above the heap, but it is one of those songs that stands out at least musically though.



mapachito13 -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/28/2008 9:58:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rufas2000

I usually hate the term sellout (the user is usually really saying the band isn't doing what they want them to anymore) but when you run your mouth for years about the mainstream music industry and then embrace all the excess you used to talk smack about (is there a band with more product than Metallica?) then expect to be called on your hypocrisy.



I used to be a big Metallica fan (used to see them when they were playing the clubs in LA) but for this reason you so eloquently stated above I shredded all my Metallica CD's, vinyl and videos. Their demise IMHO started when Lars decided to testify before Congress about all those "bad, bad" bootleggers which earlier on they embraced enough to release a video with bootleg videos from fans (Remember Cliff 'em All?).

My best song of all time? "The Impossible Dream" from Man from La Mancha. [sm=eek.gif] Best rock song? I really have a great number but if I had to narrow it to one it would be Megadeth's "Peace Sells... But Who's Buying". [sm=silly.gif] The cover art on this album is the best of all time IMO too!



Rufas2000 -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/28/2008 10:16:50 AM)

We ought to organize a "tournament survey". Take 8 or 16 songs (needs to be divisible by 4) and have one on one surveys.

Example: Bohemian Rhapsody vs Stairway to Heaven.

Winner moves on to the next survey against the winner of another survey (Freebird vs Fade to Black for example).

It would work like a playoff.

It seems to be far more trouble than its worth but it might be interesting.



mapachito13 -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/28/2008 10:22:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rufas2000

We ought to organize a "tournament survey". Take 8 or 16 songs (needs to be divisible by 4) and have one on one surveys.

Example: Bohemian Rhapsody vs Stairway to Heaven.

Winner moves on to the next survey against the winner of another survey (Freebird vs Fade to Black for example).

It would work like a playoff.

It seems to be far more trouble than its worth but it might be interesting.


That sounds like an interesting idea. I'm game!



rlj -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/28/2008 11:35:25 AM)

quote:

Their demise IMHO started when Lars decided to testify before Congress about all those "bad, bad" bootleggers which earlier on they embraced enough to release a video with bootleg videos from fans (Remember Cliff 'em All?).


EXACTLY! Funny thing was that video sold the same as anything else and for a bootleg it was awful.



mapachito13 -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/28/2008 11:58:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rlj

quote:

Their demise IMHO started when Lars decided to testify before Congress about all those "bad, bad" bootleggers which earlier on they embraced enough to release a video with bootleg videos from fans (Remember Cliff 'em All?).


EXACTLY! Funny thing was that video sold the same as anything else and for a bootleg it was awful.


Yeah had too many shots of the back of someone's head or feet when security was passing by! And their "beer run" gag left me kind of cold (forgive the pun).



humbleinspirit -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/28/2008 12:13:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rufas2000

We ought to organize a "tournament survey". Take 8 or 16 songs (needs to be divisible by 4) and have one on one surveys.

Example: Bohemian Rhapsody vs Stairway to Heaven.

Winner moves on to the next survey against the winner of another survey (Freebird vs Fade to Black for example).

It would work like a playoff.

It seems to be far more trouble than its worth but it might be interesting.


Now I really like that idea, who wants to start it?



Rufas2000 -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/28/2008 2:20:34 PM)

Thanks for the support on my idea. Not sure if its practical though. Here's a look:

First, lets assume we go with 8 songs. More really would be better but it also increases the challenges I'm about to explain. First, which 8 songs? This probably could be taken care of in a nomination thread. Once the songs are selected we would have to create a bracket. We would have to decide if similar songs would be matched against each other (same style, same time period), if they would be kept separate or if it would just be completely random. Perhaps we could look up a list of most popular songs of all time and seed them that way (the most popular nominee verses the least and so on).

OK we got our 8 songs selected and matched in a way that is aggreeable to the community. Then we have to do our polls. There would be four initial polls. Do we do them all at once (perhaps upsetting some mods with our huge presence) or do we stagger them, which would make the process take longer? The second is the time limit, when would we close voting on the polls? I say a week. Put up the poll sometime on Sunday, close it (for purposes of our "tournament") at 12 PMish on Saturday. We would have to have an approximate time so people know when they have to vote by, not exact though as if no one is available at 12 PM Saturday we might have a problem.

After the initial polls it becomes much easier.

We could do one big survey but I think some songs would get lost in the shuffle. Some songs inspire far more emotion, pro and con, than others. A song might get no votes in a giant poll but will do well where its a choice between it and one other song. People are more likely to say, "Oh yeah I did love that song".

Also, should we just include classic rock or should we open it up more? Too much and it becomes unwieldly. Stairway to Heaven vs Freebird is doable. Stairway to Heaven vs So What (Miles Davis) not so much. And should we throw Christian rock in there? Larry Norman's "Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music" vs Don McClain's "American Pie" might be interesting to some and absolute silliness to others.

I don't want to be a wet blanket on my own idea but this is what I mean by "more trouble than its worth". No doubt it can be done though. I'd be willing to work on it but I would want widespread community agreement. I just don't want to start my own thing and have others shaking their heads at how I messed it up so much.



HankNJ -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/28/2008 2:44:20 PM)

The valuable thing about this song is the truth that it (perhaps unwittingly) alludes to. We can not buy or earn our way to heaven. As far as the rest of the lyrics are concerned, who knows what they mean?



humbleinspirit -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/28/2008 2:50:19 PM)

Ok Rufas, you do have a point, I was thinking that 2 songs would go head to head, then the winning song would go up against a different song, perhaps having the voting go on for a week or so. As far as thread tecnicallities, I guess it would be ok if it was put in humor and games folder instead?



Rufas2000 -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/28/2008 3:39:39 PM)

quote:

I was thinking that 2 songs would go head to head, then the winning song would go up against a different song, perhaps having the voting go on for a week or so. As far as thread tecnicallities, I guess it would be ok if it was put in humor and games folder instead?


Might be doable also. Lets see if there is more interest.



Roberta_ -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/28/2008 5:52:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rufas2000

We ought to organize a "tournament survey". Take 8 or 16 songs (needs to be divisible by 4) and have one on one surveys.

Example: Bohemian Rhapsody vs Stairway to Heaven.

Winner moves on to the next survey against the winner of another survey (Freebird vs Fade to Black for example).

It would work like a playoff.

It seems to be far more trouble than its worth but it might be interesting.


Now I really like that idea, who wants to start it?


I like the idea too!



Digrieze -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/28/2008 9:03:17 PM)

I hate to say it, but as a musician I'd have to vote for both. Insofar as vocals go it's hard to beat "Bohemian Rhapsody". In fact, even Queen didn't try to do some of it live, they just projected the video above the stage and faded their live play out before the really nearly impossible vocals in the "Gallileo" section, they'd take a break, sip water, relax, etc, The exception seemed to be Brian May who was often seen improvising over the top, even if the guitar was muted (I always wanted to hear what he was noodling out of the "red special" back then). You can't blaime them, that vocal studio performance is a masterpiece that will probably never be replicated. Must be tough to set a standard of excellence like that and know the odds of doing it live are low.

On the other hand you've read my comments early on about "Stairway To Heaven". I'd have a hard time imagining a more complex interweaving of musical rhythm and melody demanding the most of the musician to perform.

As long as musicians are really interested in mastering either vocals or their instruments neither song will pass into obscurity.

Personally I think that even non musicians are more sophisticated than most people give them credit for. For an interesting view of this you might want to read "Musicophilia" by Oliver Sacks. Sacks examines why the brain responds the way it does to music. Interesting theories, I don't know if they're accurate, but he certainly gives reasonable explanations to many of the responses we see, both in secular gigs and in churches that do the "tribal hypno-dance" worship style.



DethWolf -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/29/2008 3:01:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rlj

quote:

And it all started with the black album, a bid to get Metallica into the mainstream by slowing the tempo, shortening some of the songs, cutting much of the aggression and removing much of the technical complexity. Load and Reload were just that. At least with St. Anger it was clear they didn't care what the mainstream thought of that one. Seven minute songs (on average) and intentional garage level production do not get you on modern rock radio for long (even if you're Metallica).


I think they sound better stripped down. I heard a bootleg of studio outtakes that had a few songs from the Black album and they were better then the release simply because they didn't go through all the remixing, re-recording, redubbing and all of those other technical terms I could care less about.


Yeah what I meant was people complained about the Black Album being like, all nice and shiny whereas their previous releases were more like eating gravel and liking it, if that makes any sense to anyone but me. Load and ReLoad certainly had to grow on me, but those two and Garage Inc. are really the era of Metallica from when I was in high school, so I fondly remember them that way. I have a good feeling about Death Magnetic from what I've heard of it, though. I do gotta agree with whoever said they are about the money, though. Had it been in the 80's, I doubt that Lars would have complained about free DL's.



DethWolf -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/29/2008 3:10:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13
My best song of all time? "The Impossible Dream" from Man from La Mancha. [sm=eek.gif] Best rock song? I really have a great number but if I had to narrow it to one it would be Megadeth's "Peace Sells... But Who's Buying". [sm=silly.gif] The cover art on this album is the best of all time IMO too!


Never forget....Dave Mustaine is the supreme master of the metal universe. There are other masters, but Dave is the supreme master.



rlj -> RE: Stairway To Heaven (6/29/2008 9:16:24 AM)

quote:

Yeah what I meant was people complained about the Black Album being like, all nice and shiny whereas their previous releases were more like eating gravel and liking it, if that makes any sense to anyone but me.


Way back when I got into them Puppets had just come out. So when the Black album came out many of us who heard them from way back were like "Huh?!?!" then we got to hear "get over it this ain't about Puppets any more etc.". What you said though is right on. I agree with you though completely after hearing the Black songs stripped down.



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