|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/12/2008 12:19:05 PM
|
|
|
armydude
Posts: 17149
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Divine forgiveness certainly doesn't. The forgiveness that we are supposed to have as Christians, forgiveness coming from men, may, however. Here is where I must take exception to your words. Please point out a verse anywhere in the bible that states that our forgiveness comes from men. Anywhere.quote:
"Government" isn't an entity separate from people, no matter how clean that makes things. It's, at least in the US, "of the people". This means that if these people are forgiving Christians, that will extend into the government.
I do believe we're going to have to agree to disagree here. The government is made up of the people, but the government is not the people. It is an entity unto itself, and it is accountable to the people. That's how I read, "Government of the people, by the people and for the people".
BTW, back to my other point, when we forgive someone, we are extending God's forgiveness to them. It doesn't come from men. It comes from God. Anything else is not forgiveness because outside of God's love, we're not able to forgive.
_____________________________
May all of your troubles last no longer than your New Year's Resolutions!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/12/2008 12:24:44 PM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 831
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
Obviously everything originates from God. I'm not arguing that. However, God told us to forgive, which means there is effort on our part in the act of forgiveness.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/12/2008 12:30:32 PM
|
|
|
armydude
Posts: 17149
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Obviously everything originates from God. I'm not arguing that. However, God told us to forgive, which means there is effort on our part in the act of forgiveness.
But forgiveness is a personal thing. It has nothing to do with the government's role.
_____________________________
May all of your troubles last no longer than your New Year's Resolutions!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/12/2008 12:36:11 PM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 831
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
It can have to do with a voter's role or a representative's role. You can't separate the government from the people. They are one and the same. It's like a big corporation.
This isn't really my main point from earlier, though. My main point is this: how can a death penalty advocate cite Old Testament law as their reasoning for promoting the death penalty for certain crimes but pick and choose which Old Testament death penalties with which they subscribe? Sure the death penalty was applied to murderers, but the same penalty was applied to those who worked on the Sabbath. Are we willing to enact that as law with equal enthusiasm? If not, why?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/12/2008 12:36:54 PM
|
|
|
HisFish
Posts: 686
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Divine forgiveness certainly doesn't. The forgiveness that we are supposed to have as Christians, forgiveness coming from men, may, however. "Government" isn't an entity separate from people, no matter how clean that makes things. It's, at least in the US, "of the people". This means that if these people are forgiving Christians, that will extend into the government.
When we sin before God He certainly forgives us, but He dosent remove the consequences of that sin and neither should government.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/12/2008 12:41:23 PM
|
|
|
armydude
Posts: 17149
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
It can have to do with a voter's role or a representative's role. You can't separate the government from the people. They are one and the same. It's like a big corporation.
This isn't really my main point from earlier, though. My main point is this: how can a death penalty advocate cite Old Testament law as their reasoning for promoting the death penalty for certain crimes but pick and choose which Old Testament death penalties with which they subscribe? Sure the death penalty was applied to murderers, but the same penalty was applied to those who worked on the Sabbath. Are we willing to enact that as law with equal enthusiasm? If not, why?
That's a good question... can I get back with you on that?
_____________________________
May all of your troubles last no longer than your New Year's Resolutions!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/12/2008 2:49:29 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
You're saying that absolutely nothing changed from OT to NT?
Nope... I was asking you what has changed... Looking for example that pertain to the topic... Not open statements that don't pertain to the topic...
quote:
There is documented change in the way we're supposed to behave.
In regards to? Why always so vauge? We are told to love God and our neighbor in both the Old and New... Jesus didn't make that up on the fly, He was merely making clear what had always been there, but what was pervereted by man...
quote:
What does stealing, murdering and lying have to do with this?
You said: God's laws have changed
I am looking for claification as it pertains to the topic...
quote:
Is one of the commandments "Thou shalt enforce laws through the death of criminals"?
God is very clear that those who unjustly take life should be put to death and He made very clear that He ordained the civil government to be His minister of wrath for those who do evil...
What else has He commanded in any part of the bible that should be done with those who commit murder?
quote:
This isn't a debate about the ten commandments or keeping the Law. There's a one-stop thread for that. This is about the death penalty.
We are talking about a just punishment so the Ten Commandment can and will come into play, as for any debate about keeping the law, that's your issue since I am not debating it...
quote:
The death penalty was used for very VERY specific things in the Old Testament. How can you take those specific ordinations and apply them differently, yet still cite the same verses?
How is saying the biblical just punishment for murder is death equate to applying it differently? How am I applying anything different? Actually it's those who claim the death penalty is revoked who are changing things...
How do you get around the clear biblical fact that God calls for the death penalty? Saying God's laws have changed? That we are to behave different? What documented change in the way we're supposed to behave repeals the death penalty...
Christ didn't repeal it, yet we are supposed?
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/12/2008 3:00:15 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Divine forgiveness certainly doesn't. The forgiveness that we are supposed to have as Christians, forgiveness coming from men, may, however.
How is forgiveness tied to the death penalty? What biblical premise are you resting on that says one cannot forgive and justly put one to death and or support it? I know a few judges that are very godly men who have sentences folks to death. Using scripture make a case these men were acting in a manner that conflicts with God's word... Paul said he would submit to being put to death if he deserved it...
"Government" isn't an entity separate from people, no matter how clean that makes things. It's, at least in the US, "of the people". This means that if these people are forgiving Christians, that will extend into the government.
Forgiveness doesn't mean that people cannot be put to death for their deeds... There isn't anything in the bible that supports that view...
God appointed the civil government to be His minister of wrath for those who do evil... That's the ordained duty of the government, regardless if it's by the people or not...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/12/2008 3:15:56 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
It can have to do with a voter's role or a representative's role. You can't separate the government from the people. They are one and the same. It's like a big corporation.
You have to establish that something is wrong in regard to the role in government and how Christians should interact, which you haven't...
As well, there are clear duties assigned to the government and those of individuals... The government is an entity unto itself apart from the people...
quote:
This isn't really my main point from earlier, though. My main point is this: how can a death penalty advocate cite Old Testament law as their reasoning for promoting the death penalty for certain crimes but pick and choose which Old Testament death penalties with which they subscribe? Sure the death penalty was applied to murderers, but the same penalty was applied to those who worked on the Sabbath. Are we willing to enact that as law with equal enthusiasm? If not, why?
Who is picking and choosing? We are dealing with is at hand... The death penalty wasn't simply applied, it was commanded by God by the proper authority...
And any argument that basis itself on the idea that the death penalty is a OT only concept isn't valid...
As for what laws should be enacted...
God clearly says the civil government is His ordained minister for those who do evil... Given that what is evil hasn't changed we should consider it mercy that God hasn't moved His ordained minister of wrath to deal with all evil.
Failure to obey the law doesn't revoke it and failure to apply it as it should be doesn't make it wrong when it is...
John
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 7/12/2008 7:35:45 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/13/2008 2:30:02 AM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 831
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
Why so vague? It's a general idea. We're talking about the death penalty in general, rather than for a specific crime, so I'm speaking of it in general. I've already responded to the death penalty as a specific punishment for murder. My response (which you did not answer) was that if we're so enthusiastic about enforcing that particular Old Testament ordination of God, why aren't we quick to do so with the others resulting in the same penalty, such as adultery, working on the Sabbath, etc.?
As far as the Bible and forgiveness, the Bible says we are to forgive others as God has forgiven us. The Bible also says that when God forgives, He forgets. We are to do the same. If we have forgotten the crime of someone, how can we kill him for it?
It will take me a long time to compile a list of what has changed from OT times to NT times. This may be for a different thread, however, since that's a topic of great disagreement for many. One example which comes to mind is that when someone steals from us, we are to offer something else instead of seek "justice" or vengeance, whereas in Old Testament times, there was a clear punishment for thievery. The same goes for battery (we're supposed to offer the other cheek). In proverbs, the Bible calls the borrower the servant of the lender, while in the New Testament, we're told not to expect any return on what we lend. If this isn't a clear change, I don't know what is.
Luke 6:37 says "Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned."
In fact, the Bible says that God is kind to ungrateful and evil men, so if we are to emulate God's kindness, aren't we to do the same?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/13/2008 2:58:42 AM
|
|
|
doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
Status: offline
|
McFattyquote:
It can have to do with a voter's role or a representative's role. You can't separate the government from the people. They are one and the same. It's like a big corporation. If we truly are to forgive then not even the lightest punishment should be imposed on the criminal by the government.
Isn't the model of the Lord's forgiveness the only model we must follow if we are to apply forgiveness to criminal offenders? If we don't then we are not truly forgiving. Even incarcaration would be an indication of an unforgiving heart.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/13/2008 11:20:26 AM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 831
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
I find protection of others by separation and killing to be a bit different.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/13/2008 11:52:18 AM
|
|
|
HisFish
Posts: 686
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I find protection of others by separation and killing to be a bit different.
But your mistake is in thinking they are seperated from everybody. A prison guard or some other prison worker could be (and has been) murdered by them, or a fellow prisoner for that matter.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/13/2008 12:12:36 PM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 831
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
Using something that happens in a vast minority of the prison population to make a point for the whole?
Regardless of incarceration, I don't see how killing an offender helps anyone. It's more often used for vengeance, and people happily admit that. Vengeance is clearly wrong, because it is for God and God alone. Each person knows their true reason for wanting these people to die. Is it really because you feel God tells you to kill as a punishment for this crime (even though there are clearly other crimes in the first five books which warrant death which I hear no advocates for as loudly as death penalty for murder)?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/13/2008 5:09:08 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Why so vague? It's a general idea. We're talking about the death penalty in general, rather than for a specific crime, so I'm speaking of it in general. I've already responded to the death penalty as a specific punishment for murder.
Where?
quote:
My response (which you did not answer) was that if we're so enthusiastic about enforcing that particular Old Testament ordination of God, why aren't we quick to do so with the others resulting in the same penalty, such as adultery, working on the Sabbath, etc.?
I responded in post 309, so yes I did answer...
quote:
As far as the Bible and forgiveness, the Bible says we are to forgive others as God has forgiven us. The Bible also says that when God forgives, He forgets. We are to do the same. If we have forgotten the crime of someone, how can we kill him for it?
The bible doesn’t teach that forgiveness wipes away the consequences for actions... The fact the bible clealry lists pusnismenst for deeds says you're wrong... God didn't forget what David did to his Uriah, he took his son from him for it...God didn't forget what those outside the ark, they were drowned... God didn't forget those who didn't choose him, He odered Moses to put them to the sword by the thousands... As well God struck folks down in the NT for those of you who feel the OT is no longer valid...
quote:
It will take me a long time to compile a list of what has changed from OT times to NT times.
This may be for a different thread, however, since that's a topic of great disagreement for many. One example which comes to mind is that when someone steals from us, we are to offer something else instead of seek "justice" or vengeance, whereas in Old Testament times, there was a clear punishment for thievery.
We are not to seek PERSONAL vengeance... Why?
The fact that God ordained the civil govenment for the sake of order and to be His minister of wrath for those who do evil your claim that Christian should not seek justice has no foundation in God's word...
There is no call in the bible to ignore justice in the bible... Justice is very godly...
As for clear punishment for thievery in the NT...
Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward (death)of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
So says the thief...
quote:
The same goes for battery (we're supposed to offer the other cheek).
Are you saying Christians are not to defend themselves? Is one to offer their son up after they are done with the daughter?
quote:
In proverbs, the Bible calls the borrower the servant of the lender, while in the New Testament, we're told not to expect any return on what we lend. If this isn't a clear change, I don't know what is.
The borrow is no less a servant of the lender today... That's a principle that will never change...
And a Christian is bound by his word to pay his or her debt just as much today as ever... The idea of forgiving debt isn't a NT only point... Debt forgivness is found in the OT...
quote:
Luke 6:37 says "Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned."
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
God ordained the civil govenrment for the purpose of dealing with those who do evil which requires judgment...
quote:
In fact, the Bible says that God is kind to ungrateful and evil men, so if we are to emulate God's kindness, aren't we to do the same?
Where in the bible does it says that in order to be kind one must suspend judgment and or punishment?
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/13/2008 5:10:52 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I find protection of others by separation and killing to be a bit different.
What happened to forgive and forget?
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/13/2008 5:17:31 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Regardless of incarceration, I don't see how killing an offender helps anyone.
It's a matter of justice... The just punishment for something isn't centered around what helps people... That's secular reasoning...
quote:
It's more often used for vengeance, and people happily admit that.
If the family of the person who was murdered feels vengeance that is their issue and has nothing to do with what is just in regards to punishment...
quote:
Vengeance is clearly wrong, because it is for God and God alone.
Yes, vengeance is clearly wrong, but just as wrong is calling justice, vengeance... One is rightesous and one isn't...
quote:
Each person knows their true reason for wanting these people to die. Is it really because you feel God tells you to kill as a punishment for this crime (even though there are clearly other crimes in the first five books which warrant death which I hear no advocates for as loudly as death penalty for murder)?
Again...
As for what laws should be enacted...
God clearly says the civil government is His ordained minister for those who do evil... Given that what is evil hasn't changed we should consider it mercy that God hasn't moved His ordained minister of wrath to deal with all evil.
Failure to obey the law doesn't revoke it and failure to apply it as it should be doesn't make it wrong when it is...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/13/2008 7:17:18 PM
|
|
|
doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I find protection of others by separation and killing to be a bit different.
It is still a form of punishment. Ostracizing is another form of punishment. Forgiveness means returning the person back to his previous status. Meaning a person considered to owe no more debt.
If you say you forgive a person for killing that means you are already calling him a person that deserves your fellowship.
Not allowing him to fellowship with you is still an act of enmity.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/14/2008 2:49:15 AM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 831
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
Wow, we're stuck on my forgiving others now? That's the direction?
In the end this comes down to what has changed. I have seen changes from old to new. You haven't. That's the end of our discussion I guess. One of those changes is that the old penalties don't have to apply (read John 8). Whoever is without sin should throw the first stone (or the switch on the electric chair).
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
|
|
|
|
|
Justice - 7/14/2008 4:14:39 AM
|
|
|
doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
Status: offline
|
Well, McFatty, you said, "Obviously everything originates from God. I'm not arguing that. However, God told us to forgive, which means there is effort on our part in the act of forgiveness. "
We'll be stuck here for a while because that is the basis for your whole argument. Because the concept of forgiveness does not change.
Quoting the temptation of Jesus to judge a woman supposedly caught in adultery deserves an observation on the whole circumstances surrounding Him at that time. It is not simply a statement of "hey forgive this girl her sins!".
Jesus was being tempted and he knew it! They wanted to find fault in him. They wanted them to act like a civil servant which he was not. They wanted him to be judge and prosecutor like Saul. The law requires both involved parties to be present in the trial, the man was not present, only the woman. There must be a fair trial. They wanted mob justice not judicial process. All Jesus could do to stop the most unfair process is to expose them to their own lies, their conscience being their witness.
Proverbs 21:3
To do righteousness and justice Is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
< Message edited by doublecross -- 7/14/2008 4:29:35 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Justice - 7/14/2008 4:48:44 AM
|
|
|
ConstantReader
Posts: 158
Joined: 1/28/2008
Status: offline
|
I'm against the DP.
_____________________________
Long days and pleasant nights.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Justice - 7/14/2008 8:11:00 AM
|
|
|
armydude
Posts: 17149
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ConstantReader
I'm against the DP.
I don't like it personally, but I do see the need for it.
_____________________________
May all of your troubles last no longer than your New Year's Resolutions!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Justice - 7/14/2008 11:59:27 AM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 831
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: doublecross
Well, McFatty, you said, "Obviously everything originates from God. I'm not arguing that. However, God told us to forgive, which means there is effort on our part in the act of forgiveness. "
We'll be stuck here for a while because that is the basis for your whole argument. Because the concept of forgiveness does not change.
Quoting the temptation of Jesus to judge a woman supposedly caught in adultery deserves an observation on the whole circumstances surrounding Him at that time. It is not simply a statement of "hey forgive this girl her sins!".
Jesus was being tempted and he knew it! They wanted to find fault in him. They wanted them to act like a civil servant which he was not. They wanted him to be judge and prosecutor like Saul. The law requires both involved parties to be present in the trial, the man was not present, only the woman. There must be a fair trial. They wanted mob justice not judicial process. All Jesus could do to stop the most unfair process is to expose them to their own lies, their conscience being their witness.
Proverbs 21:3
To do righteousness and justice Is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
It's not quite the basis for my whole argument, but okay. I said earlier that love was more important than forgiveness. I'll reexamine my take on death penalty for murderers when we're just as willing to kill someone for being called into work on Saturday as we are for murder.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 7/14/2008 9:30:15 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Wow, we're stuck on my forgiving others now? That's the direction?
Actually you seem to be stuck with the idea that forgiveness entails no punishment... You argued yourself into that corner because you mixed the eternal with the temporal...
quote:
In the end this comes down to what has changed. I have seen changes from old to new. You haven't. That's the end of our discussion I guess.
I guess, though it seems when pressed for subtance the discussion ends... Since you offered nothing regarding change as it pertains to the topic...
quote:
One of those changes is that the old penalties don't have to apply (read John 8). Whoever is without sin should throw the first stone (or the switch on the electric chair).
John 8... I have read it... That's where a group of men bring a woman to Jesus not for the sake of justice, but to use her to accuse Christ... (read verse 6) as well they did not bring the other party... Nothing they did measures up to the following...
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
They perverted justice in order to accuse Christ... And it's a safe bet the person she was with was in the crowd and picked up the first and biggest rock...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Justice - 7/14/2008 9:31:16 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ConstantReader
I'm against the DP.
The bible isn't...
John
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
