RE: Justice

RE: Justice (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> Morality & Ethics

Message

loloidong -> RE: Justice (7/16/2008 2:40:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: hellohellohi Oh that makes sense as a term then -- re-generated or reborn, huh. What is meant by, you can't disciple the unregenerated, then? I'm not sure I know what y'all are saying. Isn't the non-saved who we seek to evangelize to in order for them to be regenerated? I think I just don't get what y'all mean. They first have to be saved before trying to make them a disciple of Jesus. Ironically, a lot of churches may be trying to disciple lost members. I think it goes both ways. First in a stricter sense: Disciples may mean that they are already those who are followers of Jesus Christ. WRT unbelievers, the term must be "evangelizing" not "discipling". Second in a more lose sense: In the gospel there were multitude of non-believers following Jesus. Remember they left him when Jesus thought them about eating is flesh? They thought that Jesus was teaching cannibalism. Some of them did not last because there were just there for the food because they were fed bread and fish. Anyway, the gospels called them disciples even though Jesus knew that they were not among his true believers.

hellohellohi -> RE: Justice (7/16/2008 2:46:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: hellohellohi Oh that makes sense as a term then -- re-generated or reborn, huh. What is meant by, you can't disciple the unregenerated, then? I'm not sure I know what y'all are saying. Isn't the non-saved who we seek to evangelize to in order for them to be regenerated? I think I just don't get what y'all mean. They first have to be saved before trying to make them a disciple of Jesus. Ironically, a lot of churches may be trying to disciple lost members. I guess so. Or at least the saving and the discipleship woudl have to be simultaneous, right. That's a good point about sending out ostensible disciples, though, that aren't actually believers -- or allowing that people can profess Christianity while also professing things contrary to it.

bzirk -> RE: Justice (7/16/2008 2:52:23 PM)
If the church is discipling people, that is the best way IMO for someone to figure out if they are of the Lord or not. Plus, it is for the Lord to determine first and foremost. I try to remember this: quote: Matthew 13 24Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25"But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. 26"But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. 27"The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' 28"And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?' 29"But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

zamdad -> RE: Justice (7/16/2008 4:04:02 PM)
quote: This is a forum for the exchange of ideas, posting is what goes on here and I for one don't buy into the charge that it's the church's fault people sin... The bible holds us each accountable for our deeds, and while the church as its issues as well, it's not responsible for the actions of those in prison... John. I have no qualms with the exchange of opinions and ideas, that's whay I come here. Since you and one other person commented on my remark about the church failing to disciple people, it seems it bears some further explanation. First off, who is the church? You, me and everyone who fills the pew. As a corporate body of believers we have programmed everything so that the model of discipleship shown by Christ has been lost. One of the programs we have designed in modern times is prison ministry. While prison ministry is much needed, our tendency is to focus more on the men and women behind bars than when they are in the community. This is where the men and women who rotate through the justice system need us the most. Behind bars there is structure and order. Once they're released, there is no structure/order. While they've been fed the gospel behind bars and may truly be seeking to know the Lord and His will upon release, they find themselves aliens and strangers among those they seek to become affiliated with. INstead, they return to what's comfortable, the old familiar, destructive ways of the past. I say that the church has failed to disciple because in my years as a probation officer in seeking to connect offenders with pro-social people in the community, Christians talk a good game but fail to walk their talk because it interferes with our comforts. We all want something done, but we want someone else to do it.

JimboFletch -> RE: Justice (7/16/2008 4:14:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zamdad quote: This is a forum for the exchange of ideas, posting is what goes on here and I for one don't buy into the charge that it's the church's fault people sin... The bible holds us each accountable for our deeds, and while the church as its issues as well, it's not responsible for the actions of those in prison... John. I have no qualms with the exchange of opinions and ideas, that's whay I come here. Since you and one other person commented on my remark about the church failing to disciple people, it seems it bears some further explanation. First off, who is the church? You, me and everyone who fills the pew. As a corporate body of believers we have programmed everything so that the model of discipleship shown by Christ has been lost. One of the programs we have designed in modern times is prison ministry. While prison ministry is much needed, our tendency is to focus more on the men and women behind bars than when they are in the community. This is where the men and women who rotate through the justice system need us the most. Behind bars there is structure and order. Once they're released, there is no structure/order. While they've been fed the gospel behind bars and may truly be seeking to know the Lord and His will upon release, they find themselves aliens and strangers among those they seek to become affiliated with. INstead, they return to what's comfortable, the old familiar, destructive ways of the past. I say that the church has failed to disciple because in my years as a probation officer in seeking to connect offenders with pro-social people in the community, Christians talk a good game but fail to walk their talk because it interferes with our comforts. We all want something done, but we want someone else to do it. One other person here... It sounds like you are talking about outreach (which my church and Bible study is actively involved with) to our community where the needs are, while offering the Gospel of Christ as we minister. IOW, to live our faith. But I have never expected the lost, whether down-and-out or high-society, to discipline themselves to be like Christ. We are to be salt and light, not try to force new wine into old wineskins.

hellohellohi -> RE: Justice (7/16/2008 4:19:57 PM)
quote: It sounds like you are talking about outreach (which my church and Bible study is actively involved with) to our community where the needs are, while offering the Gospel of Christ as we minister. IOW, to live our faith. But I have never expected the lost, whether down-and-out or high-society, to discipline themselves to be like Christ. We are to be salt and light, not try to force new wine into old wineskins. Good clarifications. Both of y'all, too.

zamdad -> RE: Justice (7/17/2008 1:20:43 AM)
quote: It sounds like you are talking about outreach (which my church and Bible study is actively involved with) to our community where the needs are, while offering the Gospel of Christ as we minister. IOW, to live our faith. Yes and no. I guess I write this out of frustration. While I see outreach as a good thing, I also see outreach being just another program. When we rely on programs, we do not build the relationships, the one anothers with those we want to reach. I had this lesson driven home to me when one of the sex offenders I had been supervising had a transformation. Prior to this transformation, he had heard the gospel, been to church, played the game, but still had no fruit to show for his porfession. He then connected with a man from the church he'd been attending. We, myself and the treatment team, noticed a change in his physical appearance as well as his demeanor. We did a presentation to the ministerial association and this man asked if he could come. At the presentation he got up and spoke about his transformation and how it became real when "Lenny," became his friend. He had never had someone be a Jesus with skin on before. But, Lenny befriended him and helped him to see the heart of Christ. As I said before, when working with members of the local comunity to try and connect offenders I found people speaking a desire to help, but short on being the eyes, ears, hands and feet of Christ. And, I ahve to admit, I'm as guilty as anyone else. We live very busy lives. We have families to nourish. It's a burden to take the time to disciple someone who doesn't seem like they want to be discipled. It's easier to develop a program where people who feel led to work with this population can do all the work. quote: But I have never expected the lost, whether down-and-out or high-society, to discipline themselves to be like Christ. We are to be salt and light, not try to force new wine into old wineskins. I hope this is not what I'm conveying.

JimboFletch -> RE: Justice (7/17/2008 8:19:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zamdad Yes and no. I guess I write this out of frustration. While I see outreach as a good thing, I also see outreach being just another program. When we rely on programs, we do not build the relationships, the one anothers with those we want to reach. I guess there are virtually no words to describe ministry any more without someone getting their knickers in a knot. I guess "outreach" now has too much baggage tobe used to mean meeting people where they are, establishing a personal, caring, and loving relationship, and trying to meet their physical & spiritual (and emotional where possible) needs without having someone lash out that it's somehow yet another program or seeker-friendly (whatever that now means) or the work starte by some flawed pastor. Let me put it another way: I was trying to agree with your concerns and let you know that, like Elijah, you are not the lone person trying to serve Jesus as best they can, where they are, and with what they have to work with.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Justice (7/18/2008 12:26:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zamdad ]This is a forum for the exchange of ideas, posting is what goes on here and I for one don't buy into the charge John. I have no qualms with the exchange of opinions and ideas, that's whay I come here. Since you and one other person commented on my remark about the church failing to disciple people, it seems it bears some further explanation. First off, who is the church? You, me and everyone who fills the pew. As a corporate body of believers we have programmed everything so that the model of discipleship shown by Christ has been lost. One of the programs we have designed in modern times is prison ministry. While prison ministry is much needed, our tendency is to focus more on the men and women behind bars than when they are in the community. This is where the men and women who rotate through the justice system need us the most. Behind bars there is structure and order. Once they're released, there is no structure/order. While they've been fed the gospel behind bars and may truly be seeking to know the Lord and His will upon release, they find themselves aliens and strangers among those they seek to become affiliated with. INstead, they return to what's comfortable, the old familiar, destructive ways of the past. I live a small town in Northern California.... A drive around town and most of the churches have big banners welcoming people to worship... Some have free meals afterwards... If a person truly is seeking the Lord they will find Him... They return to what is comfortable, well, because it's comfortable, not because the world isn't being fair, or that the church has it's own issues... quote: I say that the church has failed to disciple because in my years as a probation officer in seeking to connect offenders with pro-social people in the community, Christians talk a good game but fail to walk their talk because it interferes with our comforts. We all want something done, but we want someone else to do it. Who are these Christians you are speaking of, and what should they being doing? John

schtumpy -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (12/15/2008 11:16:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fiat_lux quote: But what if God commissions the removal of the death penalty through democratic referendum? Is this possible? Is France not a government commissioned by God, which has nonetheless refused the death penalty? Just looking for more details abtou your beliefs concerning God and the polis. Given the situation presently going on in France, they might not be the best example of a stable country without capital punishment. Fortunately, there are a lot of stable, healthy democracies we could use as examples instead. (my emphasis) Actually, every one of them except Japan. Only talking about 1st world countries if that's ok. I don't count Russia as a stable democracy. But if you want to, hey, that's 2 others! Having no death penalty is one of the pre-requisites if you want to join the European Union. Japan has executed 28 people since 2006. You guys have executed a little over 1000 since 1976. But you also have the highest murder rate among 1st world countries - usually about 2 or 3 times higher than the others so it's probably just as well you have your death penalty. If that wasn't there as a deterrent, imagine how many murders you'd have every year.

zamdad -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (12/16/2008 1:09:35 AM)
quote: If that wasn't there as a deterrent, imagine how many murders you'd have every year. It doesn't deter crime. Heck. even the threat of incarceration is hardly a deterrent to crime anymore.

schtumpy -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (12/16/2008 2:03:19 AM)
The threat of incarceration is more of a deterrent than the threat of execution? Did I read you right?

zamdad -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (12/16/2008 3:04:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: schtumpy The threat of incarceration is more of a deterrent than the threat of execution? Did I read you right? No. What I said was that even incarceration is not much of a deterrent. I've worked in our justice system here for quite some time. Much of that time as a probation officer where I wrote the presentence reports that made recommendations for sentencing. The report is sort of like a biographical sketch of the offender which includes criminal history information. One of the things mentioned in the assessment is deterrence. It became glaringly clear to me that the overwhelming majority of folks I wrote reports on had not been deterred from any of their previous interactions with the justice system. I find it hard to imagine too many people about to commit a murder going, "I could get the death penalty for this." American criminals don't tend to think about consequences until they get caught.

StephK -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (12/16/2008 10:29:23 AM)
Just adding some insight to the issue. Here's an interview with someone who just likes killing. He started killing and his prison lifestyle at 12. He's been given chances all of his life yet as soon as he's free he reverts back to his true nature. Those who face the possibility of receiving the death penalty don't think like we do. quote: "I'm not like anyone else," murderer says Man facing life sentences for 3 slayings in Hardin, Wyandot counties gives jailhouse interview Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:27 PM By Holly Zachariah THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH MARION, Ohio�MARION, Ohio -- When Terry Shepherd was just a kid, he gutted animals for fun: groundhogs, rabbits, mangy dogs he found wandering the countryside. Growing up on a Hardin County farm, he hunted for food and sport, too. But this was different. "I killed everything I could find," Shepherd said in a two-hour interview at the Multi-County Correctional Center in Marion tonight, an exclusive for The Dispatch. "I've always known I was different, that I'm not like anybody else." On Friday, a Hardin County judge sentenced Shepherd, 40, to two consecutive life terms in prison for the Oct. 12 murders of 57-year-old Judy Kearley and 52-year-old Deb England, two Kenton women who were strangers to him but who had agreed to give him a lift. Shepherd faces another life sentence in a Wyandot County court, where he has pleaded guilty to the Sept. 28 murder of 78-year-old Claradell Keller. Police say he went to Keller's home to rob her; he says he wanted to hawk her jewelry and collectibles to pay the $350 rent on the home he shared with his wife and two young daughters. He killed Kearley and England, he says, because he wanted their truck to get out of town as the law closed in on him. In each case, he burned the bodies. .... Since then, he has been behind bars for all but a few months as a juvenile and about three years as an adult -- the majority of that time for the rape of a 54-year-old woman when he was 16.

Lapidoth -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (12/16/2008 11:49:06 AM)
quote: don't think like we do. That's why those who try to "rationalize" this topic will never understand and will always be the victim. It's easy to be an easy-chair quarterback in this topic like those who lay back in their chair swigging suds telling the referees, etc. how it should be done. Sports is done by the "rule book." Not our emotions. The death penalty is to be done by God's rule book, not our emotions. Some need to learn the difference between "authority" and "usurped authority."

rcjames -> RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? (12/16/2008 5:19:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zamdad quote: If that wasn't there as a deterrent, imagine how many murders you'd have every year. It doesn't deter crime. Heck. even the threat of incarceration is hardly a deterrent to crime anymore. Unless one lives in Maricopa County, AZ. Thanks RC

Page: << < prev 11 12 13 14 [15]

Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI