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RE: Justice - 7/16/2008 2:40:05 PM
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loloidong
Posts: 60
Joined: 7/8/2008
From: Seattle, WA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
Oh that makes sense as a term then -- re-generated or reborn, huh.
What is meant by, you can't disciple the unregenerated, then? I'm not sure I know what y'all are saying. Isn't the non-saved who we seek to evangelize to in order for them to be regenerated? I think I just don't get what y'all mean.
They first have to be saved before trying to make them a disciple of Jesus.
Ironically, a lot of churches may be trying to disciple lost members.
I think it goes both ways.
First in a stricter sense: Disciples may mean that they are already those who are followers of Jesus Christ. WRT unbelievers, the term must be "evangelizing" not "discipling".
Second in a more lose sense: In the gospel there were multitude of non-believers following Jesus. Remember they left him when Jesus thought them about eating is flesh? They thought that Jesus was teaching cannibalism. Some of them did not last because there were just there for the food because they were fed bread and fish. Anyway, the gospels called them disciples even though Jesus knew that they were not among his true believers.
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RE: Justice - 7/16/2008 2:46:19 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
Oh that makes sense as a term then -- re-generated or reborn, huh.
What is meant by, you can't disciple the unregenerated, then? I'm not sure I know what y'all are saying. Isn't the non-saved who we seek to evangelize to in order for them to be regenerated? I think I just don't get what y'all mean.
They first have to be saved before trying to make them a disciple of Jesus.
Ironically, a lot of churches may be trying to disciple lost members.
I guess so. Or at least the saving and the discipleship woudl have to be simultaneous, right.
That's a good point about sending out ostensible disciples, though, that aren't actually believers -- or allowing that people can profess Christianity while also professing things contrary to it.
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RE: Justice - 7/16/2008 2:52:23 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2909
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
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If the church is discipling people, that is the best way IMO for someone to figure out if they are of the Lord or not. Plus, it is for the Lord to determine first and foremost.
I try to remember this:
quote:
Matthew 13
24Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25"But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
26"But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
27"The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
28"And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'
29"But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
30'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Justice - 7/16/2008 4:04:02 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1698
Joined: 4/8/2005
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quote:
This is a forum for the exchange of ideas, posting is what goes on here and I for one don't buy into the charge that it's the church's fault people sin... The bible holds us each accountable for our deeds, and while the church as its issues as well, it's not responsible for the actions of those in prison...
John. I have no qualms with the exchange of opinions and ideas, that's whay I come here. Since you and one other person commented on my remark about the church failing to disciple people, it seems it bears some further explanation. First off, who is the church? You, me and everyone who fills the pew. As a corporate body of believers we have programmed everything so that the model of discipleship shown by Christ has been lost. One of the programs we have designed in modern times is prison ministry. While prison ministry is much needed, our tendency is to focus more on the men and women behind bars than when they are in the community.
This is where the men and women who rotate through the justice system need us the most. Behind bars there is structure and order. Once they're released, there is no structure/order. While they've been fed the gospel behind bars and may truly be seeking to know the Lord and His will upon release, they find themselves aliens and strangers among those they seek to become affiliated with. INstead, they return to what's comfortable, the old familiar, destructive ways of the past.
I say that the church has failed to disciple because in my years as a probation officer in seeking to connect offenders with pro-social people in the community, Christians talk a good game but fail to walk their talk because it interferes with our comforts. We all want something done, but we want someone else to do it.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Justice - 7/16/2008 4:14:45 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6613
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
This is a forum for the exchange of ideas, posting is what goes on here and I for one don't buy into the charge that it's the church's fault people sin... The bible holds us each accountable for our deeds, and while the church as its issues as well, it's not responsible for the actions of those in prison...
John. I have no qualms with the exchange of opinions and ideas, that's whay I come here. Since you and one other person commented on my remark about the church failing to disciple people, it seems it bears some further explanation. First off, who is the church? You, me and everyone who fills the pew. As a corporate body of believers we have programmed everything so that the model of discipleship shown by Christ has been lost. One of the programs we have designed in modern times is prison ministry. While prison ministry is much needed, our tendency is to focus more on the men and women behind bars than when they are in the community.
This is where the men and women who rotate through the justice system need us the most. Behind bars there is structure and order. Once they're released, there is no structure/order. While they've been fed the gospel behind bars and may truly be seeking to know the Lord and His will upon release, they find themselves aliens and strangers among those they seek to become affiliated with. INstead, they return to what's comfortable, the old familiar, destructive ways of the past.
I say that the church has failed to disciple because in my years as a probation officer in seeking to connect offenders with pro-social people in the community, Christians talk a good game but fail to walk their talk because it interferes with our comforts. We all want something done, but we want someone else to do it.
One other person here...
It sounds like you are talking about outreach (which my church and Bible study is actively involved with) to our community where the needs are, while offering the Gospel of Christ as we minister. IOW, to live our faith.
But I have never expected the lost, whether down-and-out or high-society, to discipline themselves to be like Christ. We are to be salt and light, not try to force new wine into old wineskins.
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RE: Justice - 7/16/2008 4:19:57 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
Status: offline
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quote:
It sounds like you are talking about outreach (which my church and Bible study is actively involved with) to our community where the needs are, while offering the Gospel of Christ as we minister. IOW, to live our faith.
But I have never expected the lost, whether down-and-out or high-society, to discipline themselves to be like Christ. We are to be salt and light, not try to force new wine into old wineskins.
Good clarifications. Both of y'all, too.
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RE: Justice - 7/17/2008 1:20:43 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1698
Joined: 4/8/2005
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quote:
It sounds like you are talking about outreach (which my church and Bible study is actively involved with) to our community where the needs are, while offering the Gospel of Christ as we minister. IOW, to live our faith.
Yes and no. I guess I write this out of frustration. While I see outreach as a good thing, I also see outreach being just another program. When we rely on programs, we do not build the relationships, the one anothers with those we want to reach.
I had this lesson driven home to me when one of the sex offenders I had been supervising had a transformation. Prior to this transformation, he had heard the gospel, been to church, played the game, but still had no fruit to show for his porfession. He then connected with a man from the church he'd been attending. We, myself and the treatment team, noticed a change in his physical appearance as well as his demeanor. We did a presentation to the ministerial association and this man asked if he could come. At the presentation he got up and spoke about his transformation and how it became real when "Lenny," became his friend. He had never had someone be a Jesus with skin on before. But, Lenny befriended him and helped him to see the heart of Christ.
As I said before, when working with members of the local comunity to try and connect offenders I found people speaking a desire to help, but short on being the eyes, ears, hands and feet of Christ. And, I ahve to admit, I'm as guilty as anyone else. We live very busy lives. We have families to nourish. It's a burden to take the time to disciple someone who doesn't seem like they want to be discipled. It's easier to develop a program where people who feel led to work with this population can do all the work.
quote:
But I have never expected the lost, whether down-and-out or high-society, to discipline themselves to be like Christ. We are to be salt and light, not try to force new wine into old wineskins.
I hope this is not what I'm conveying.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Justice - 7/17/2008 8:19:34 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6613
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Yes and no. I guess I write this out of frustration. While I see outreach as a good thing, I also see outreach being just another program. When we rely on programs, we do not build the relationships, the one anothers with those we want to reach.
I guess there are virtually no words to describe ministry any more without someone getting their knickers in a knot. I guess "outreach" now has too much baggage tobe used to mean meeting people where they are, establishing a personal, caring, and loving relationship, and trying to meet their physical & spiritual (and emotional where possible) needs without having someone lash out that it's somehow yet another program or seeker-friendly (whatever that now means) or the work starte by some flawed pastor.
Let me put it another way: I was trying to agree with your concerns and let you know that, like Elijah, you are not the lone person trying to serve Jesus as best they can, where they are, and with what they have to work with.
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RE: Justice - 7/18/2008 12:26:41 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
]This is a forum for the exchange of ideas, posting is what goes on here and I for one don't buy into the charge
John. I have no qualms with the exchange of opinions and ideas, that's whay I come here. Since you and one other person commented on my remark about the church failing to disciple people, it seems it bears some further explanation. First off, who is the church? You, me and everyone who fills the pew. As a corporate body of believers we have programmed everything so that the model of discipleship shown by Christ has been lost. One of the programs we have designed in modern times is prison ministry. While prison ministry is much needed, our tendency is to focus more on the men and women behind bars than when they are in the community.
This is where the men and women who rotate through the justice system need us the most. Behind bars there is structure and order. Once they're released, there is no structure/order. While they've been fed the gospel behind bars and may truly be seeking to know the Lord and His will upon release, they find themselves aliens and strangers among those they seek to become affiliated with. INstead, they return to what's comfortable, the old familiar, destructive ways of the past.
I live a small town in Northern California.... A drive around town and most of the churches have big banners welcoming people to worship... Some have free meals afterwards...
If a person truly is seeking the Lord they will find Him... They return to what is comfortable, well, because it's comfortable, not because the world isn't being fair, or that the church has it's own issues...
quote:
I say that the church has failed to disciple because in my years as a probation officer in seeking to connect offenders with pro-social people in the community, Christians talk a good game but fail to walk their talk because it interferes with our comforts. We all want something done, but we want someone else to do it.
Who are these Christians you are speaking of, and what should they being doing?
John
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