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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/19/2008 4:51:55 PM
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WesP
Posts: 2254
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quote:
I am basically saying, I feel no remorse for the dead Sadaam Hussein today, even if, indeed, his blood is partially on my hands as a member of America. However, I didn't feel right at the time that we had an opportunity to keep him around and we didn't. I think it would be neat to see him sit around getting old watching cable TV. Not that that's what his fate would have been in Iraq, but... If I am inclined to kill a man, I would rather just pass him off to someone else -- heck, let him go home. I don't care. It's true he could come back kill me or my family and so on, but I'd rather him be alive. It's weird.
At the same time, I can feel a sense of righteous anger when these fools kill people for no reason, like to gank their Toyota Highlander and Motorola or something. Punch them in the face. Stone them, like I said, but hope for divine intervention that keeps them alive.
I don't care to wait around for them to profess Christ, because I know I would only be skeptical anyway. If I feel that hard-hearted towards them I would rather they be out of my sight. Killing them though seems like the easy way out. I don't hate them that much. Or, rather, I do hate them, I'm just not so indifferent to them that I would prefer they died. Rather, I would prefer they watched cable TV and ate potato chips. Let them get bored! Sure, lifting weights, dealing dope in the state pen is real fun, really shows the man what's what, but what happens when the world FORGETS that they murdered someone! "Wait, you mean, you don't fear me as a big bad killer?" "You're not following the rule kill or be killed, which, heck, tha's always been my prerogative. You're giving me potato chips?" Yeah, mint cookie is stretching it, but give em some potato chips. That works for me.
I think I relate to what you have posted here. I have some emotional detachment in death penalty cases. I can support it, but I have no desire to witness it. I hate inflicting pain on anyone or anything. It makes me physically ill, but I can hunt for food. Makes sense, huh? LOL!
Anyway, I understand the emotions involved in the whole scenario. I do still believe the death penalty is the correct penalty in certain cases, and I believe life in prison should be just that: life in prison working a detail sixteen hours a day, 6 days a week doing something to benefit society without gaining anything from it.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/19/2008 5:03:36 PM
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SinnerSaved
Posts: 297
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Belfast, N. Ireland
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
SinnerSAved: I found this an increidibly powerful juxtaposition:
quote:
We need the death penalty.
_____________________________
"No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
John Donne
Amazing.
<barks laugh>
That does seem a slight contradiction.
Maybe you should read John Donne's Meditation XVII before barking a laugh. You will find no contradiction.
_____________________________
"No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
John Donne
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/19/2008 5:18:50 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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I have no intention to. Nor was I laughing. I found it very striking, that's all. Perhaps I will read the John Donne one day and understand what you mean.
Edited TOS 6
I wasn't being sarcastic though, just so you know.
< Message edited by hellohellohi -- 6/19/2008 5:29:12 PM >
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/19/2008 5:21:19 PM
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Kath
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It is getting way too personal in here. Please tone it down.
Sincerely
Kath
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/19/2008 5:23:17 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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Wes,
I thought of something else great though. Perhaps no man can support the death penalty without some doubt. Only God can be so sure. So, maybe it would be okay and would feel more comfortable if we introduced an element of uncertainty to the sentence!
Whenever the judge had ruled that a case met the criteria for capital crime, I bet if he flipped a coin to decide it would affect the criminal!!
It would be like, "Here's how much your life is worth, we are flipping a coin!"
While the coin was twirling in the air, what would the criminal be thinking? And maybe he would feel relief and gratitude at getting randomly spared! That could be a good thing. You see, this way, maybe it really would be true to say it is in God's hands.
< Message edited by hellohellohi -- 6/19/2008 5:35:57 PM >
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/19/2008 5:43:36 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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SinnerSaved,
Sorry for the tenor of my response. I had actually failed to notice that you were responding to WesP as well as me. I had not seen your response to me or his intervening post, because I was already posting new things. I hope you can appreciate there was a degree of misunderstanding there.
Please express if you care to what the poem means to you, because, as you can imagine, the juxtaposition seemed either ironic or simply too perfect. In the context, "for whom the bell tolls" sounded like it was marking the occasion of a scheduled death to me. I suppose they rang bells at any funeral, but that was actually my first gut-feeling.
I hope that I haven't brought too much emotion to this issue. I think if it is a difficult and emotional issue, the best thing we can do in a addition to being passionate about our beliefs and feelings is be able to lighten the mood by laughing as well.
I can understand the passion for the death penalty, and also the sense. But I think passion can also tell us that it MAY be wrong. I have a hard time deciding this.
Thank you though
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/19/2008 9:33:51 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3448
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
As Christians we have been freed from the death penalty that hung over us.
Yes in the eternal sense, bet not in the temporal sense and even a Christian can suffer temporal consequences for their actions... The thief on the cross while told he would be Paradise still justy revcieved his due reward for his deeds, death at the hands of the civil government doing as God ordained...
quote:
As a Christian, I want everyone to have every chance to hear God's word and repent. If you execute soimeone, there chance is over.
Since God alone numbers our days the above has no merit... Romamn 1 is clear that no one has an excuse...
quote:
I would much rather that person be locked up for life. That way they have that chance to find God and forgivness. The main object of the death penalty should be to make sure that the murderer cannot murder again, a life sentence serves that purpose.
Actually it's the just punishment for the crime biblically speaking... Btw... Can you find scripture to support your lock them up for life so they can be saved doctrine?
quote:
If you are looking for vengence where you don't have to get your hands dirty, than execute them. (Your hands will still have blood on them though.) It's still vengence. (Seems to me, vengence is God's turf, not ours).
Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Justly dealing with someone isn't vengence and when the civil government acts justly and give the person their due reward that are acting has God's minister, His revenger to execture HIS wrath upon those who do evil...
quote:
Since we don't follow God in everything with regards to goverment, why do people want to follow this one thing so bad. It doesn't seem like turning the other cheek to me.
Because it is just.. The civil government is ordained to deal with those who do evil and on a personal level Christians are to turn the other cheek...
quote:
Many here seem to not care whether an innocent is executed.
Nobody here doesn't care... And you need to understand that God being all wise and perfect knew that man wouldn't be perfect in regards to judgment and STILL called for man to judge and when justified to take a person's life if their deeds call for it...
quote:
If the state executes an innocent person then they have done several things wrong,
1 they murdered an innocent person.
Only if someone in the system knowingly did something to make it so a innocent person was executed and if a witness lied and someone was executed due to the lie that person is guilty of murder not the system...
quote:
2 they allowed a murderer to roam free and unpunished.
The system by design does this given the state has the burden of proof and given what it normally takes to even be considered for the death penalty you are talking some real bad stuff...
quote:
3 they have covered up there own incompetence at best or at worst they covered up there own complicity in the murder of the defendant.
If something was done with malice they are guitly and should be punished...
quote:
Too many times the innocent have been executed, if your goverment has done this, is the blood on your hands too?
Far more times guilty people have returned to rob, beat, raped and murdered more people...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/19/2008 10:19:00 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 308
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
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As I've said before, the Bible is disappointingly short on advice on how a Christian-influenced government would handle the issue. It contains clear prescriptions for Israelite society and government (the OT law), but we don't live in that society and we don't follow that law, so we can't use it as a justification for capital punishment in only a few select special cases, like murder, since in doing so we'd be hypocritical about the purpose of the law; Paul says we have to take it all or live in defiance of it, period.
The New Testament also gives a description of how a non-Christian government can operate (in Romans 13), and how Christians should relate to that government.
It does not, however, suggest how Christians should work in a system where they have political authority or influence over such issues; because this was simply not an issue that needed a teaching in the early church (its members were oppressed as Christians and not in government). This in my mind leads to a situation in which as a person I oppose the death penalty and would never assist in carrying one out, since I cannot love someone and take their life from them, and I must repay my enemies with charity, which would seem to mean not with death (Romans 12).
quote:
Wow, it's so easy!, better security , now why didnt those who run prisons think of that.
I don't know how it works where you're from, and I don't work in prisons myself, but those who I have talked to who do have plenty of stories about institutions short on cash, short on manpower, and short on space. I'm sure most people running prisons are good people, but there are limits to what they can do.
I didn't intend my answer to be facetious. A properly funded prison system needs resources. Or we can say as a society that we're prepared to throw people in prison and let them suffer at the hands of other inmates, which already happens anyway without respect to the homicide issue (gang violence, prison rape, etc.).
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/19/2008 10:30:41 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 530
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
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quote:
As I've said before, the Bible is disappointingly short on advice on how a Christian-influenced government would handle the issue. It contains clear prescriptions for Israelite society and government (the OT law),
Since God's character does not change, why would something as fundamental to his character as justice change?. The penalty for rejecting Him has always been death since the beginning of time, why would the penalty for shedding mans blood have changed?
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/21/2008 9:25:37 PM
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psende
Posts: 127
Joined: 7/5/2005
From: The Land of Sky Blue Waters
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I'm for it. And it should be carried out quickly.
quote:
Capital punishment is a true regard for life. (Lapidoth post #50)
I've never heard this sentiment expressed so concisely before. Thanks for doing so. I agree.
_____________________________
"This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He has sent." John 6:29
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/22/2008 8:32:35 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2951
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: psende
I'm for it. And it should be carried out quickly.
quote:
Capital punishment is a true regard for life. (Lapidoth post #50)
I've never heard this sentiment expressed so concisely before. Thanks for doing so. I agree.
Ed Koch, former Mayor of NYC, wrote a piece about it years ago. Can't remember the name, but it is definitely worth reading.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/23/2008 5:18:26 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1304
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
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So acccording to some, we live by the Law in the Ot. So Jesus died on the Cross to save who?
WE live by our 2nd amendment rights , so we really don't need Jesus to save us, we got our trusty guns.
I can almost guarantee that some people have been killed innocently. If 200 were found innocent by DNA in Illinois alone. What does that protend for the death rate. of the country?
It cannot be a deterrent, murders are going up. Crime has risen, who really is it stopping?
Where does Jesus say kill those who kill others?
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Since we are all sinners, we should all die, right?
WE want quick death for those we think should die, but we watch babies die slowly everyday.
Our civil gov't is ok when using the death penalty but not ok to abort babies or allow gay marriage?
OK.
_____________________________
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/23/2008 8:16:59 AM
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psende
Posts: 127
Joined: 7/5/2005
From: The Land of Sky Blue Waters
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
quote:
ORIGINAL: psende
I'm for it. And it should be carried out quickly.
quote:
Capital punishment is a true regard for life. (Lapidoth post #50)
I've never heard this sentiment expressed so concisely before. Thanks for doing so. I agree.
Ed Koch, former Mayor of NYC, wrote a piece about it years ago. Can't remember the name, but it is definitely worth reading.
Thanks for the info. I'll check it out.
_____________________________
"This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He has sent." John 6:29
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/23/2008 8:28:09 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5566
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Our civil gov't is ok when using the death penalty but not ok to abort babies or allow gay marriage?
The unborn are innocent of murder. Homosexuality is condemned in the NT as well as OT.
quote:
I can almost guarantee that some people have been killed innocently. If 200 were found innocent by DNA in Illinois alone. What does that protend for the death rate. of the country?
You prove the system works, what's the beef?
quote:
It cannot be a deterrent, murders are going up. Crime has risen, who really is it stopping?
If the death penalty doesn't deter a single murder, it at least stops repeat offenses.
quote:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord
The death that is the wages of sin is an eternal death. The state can only kill the body, that, according to scripture, is not the one to be feared by the lost.
quote:
Where does Jesus say kill those who kill others?
Jesus is God the Son, He is in 100% agreement with God the Father.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/24/2008 12:06:03 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1304
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
Status: offline
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Jimbo,
nice try. LoL But where does Jesus say kill those who have or might have committed a crime?
He is who is without sin cast the what?
Can you cast the first stone or even go into a death penalty chamber and pull the lever?
_____________________________
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/24/2008 1:36:35 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1026
Joined: 4/8/2005
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quote:
Can you cast the first stone or even go into a death penalty chamber and pull the lever
I find this question interesting. As someone who has worked with correctional offenders both behind the walls and in the community, there are some I could pull the lever and others many might think deserve death, but could not pull the lever. While I am still in favor of the death penalty, I think most who support the position, if placed in charge of having to carry out the order, could or would not do it. Yet, they expect others to do it for them. Hmm, is this any reflection of our faith?
_____________________________
You can take the man out of Alaska, but you can't take Alaska out of the man.
Me
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/24/2008 3:13:58 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3448
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
So acccording to some, we live by the Law in the Ot.
Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
quote:
So Jesus died on the Cross to save who?
A person who is put to death for the temporal consquences of their actions can still be saved in the eternal sense...
quote:
WE live by our 2nd amendment rights , so we really don't need Jesus to save us, we got our trusty guns.
I trust that Jesus will make my aim straigt and true if God forbid it ever came to me having to defend myself and or family. No less than He guided the rock to the head of Goliath...
quote:
It cannot be a deterrent, murders are going up. Crime has risen, who really is it stopping?
It's the just punishment for the deed... There is nothing in the bible that says it has to be a deterrent...
quote:
Where does Jesus say kill those who kill others?
I believe I posted the verses regarding this as per your request in the first few pages of this thread...
quote:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Since we are all sinners, we should all die, right ?
If God were to wipe the earth clean of mankind He would be just in doing so... Of course the above is not talking about temporal consquences for one's actions...
quote:
Our civil gov't is ok when using the death penalty but not ok to abort babies or allow gay marriage?
OK.
Justly putting a person to death for their deeds it biblica... Allowing abortion and promoting the homosexual agenda isn't...
John
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 6/24/2008 3:21:27 AM >
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/24/2008 3:22:22 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3448
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Jimbo,
nice try. LoL But where does Jesus say kill those who have or might have committed a crime?
Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Exodus 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Matthew 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
quote:
He is who is without sin cast the what?
The verse is regarding a group of men who brought a woman to Jesus in order to trap Him, not as a matter of justice....
quote:
Can you cast the first stone or even go into a death penalty chamber and pull the lever?
Yes... There is nothing unjust nor ungodly about the above... If so God is unjust...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/24/2008 11:01:03 AM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 308
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
Status: offline
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quote:
Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Interesting you should bring up v. 21 as justification for capital punishment, without v. 22 as well. Does this mean the government also has the authority to judge - to kill, in your argument - those who are angry with their brother?
The Scriptures taken from Matthew refer to divine, not human, judgement.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/24/2008 11:25:08 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5566
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
The Scriptures taken from Matthew refer to divine, not human, judgement.
Thanks, you saved me a post to Tracy. Your comment makes her whole "LOL" assessment of my comment irrelevant.
Tracy, it was not the civil or lawful government that brought the woman caught in adultery to Him. If you read the Gospels, you'll find that even the Jewish officials could not execute Jesus, they had to bring Him to the Romans because they did not have the authority to kill Him.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/24/2008 1:50:12 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3113
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
There are deep-seated issues as to why those criminals killed and by killing or executing them; we did not resolve these deep-seated problems from the root. We simply erased it from existence.
This is the whole point.
As long as there is a "root", suckers keep coming up
with the same attributes to deal with.
When the erased from existence, there's no root to spring up.
Capital punishment is instituted and sanctioned by God.
Man is the one twisting and messing things up.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/24/2008 1:57:51 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3113
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
I suppose we could discuss swapping out the current criminal law for the one given to us in the Old Testament.
They've got my vote.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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